Got Drum?

[inparidel 4]

I agree with McUZI.  The Street Sweeper and Stryker 12 were reclassified during the Clinton administration's BATF.  I would think that the current administration would look the other way regarding semi-auto guns.  As proved by the expiration of the AWB, limiting magazine capacities for semi-autos is an unpopular thing to do politcally.  The BATF is comprised of department heads appointed by the current administration and the Republicans would probably like to keep the momentum they have by not pissing off gun owners.

Hello?????? Did you know / have you forgotten that the Clinton AW ban did virtually nothing to affect the flow of so-called "assault weapons" (which is an absurd term for semi-autos), and that it was / IS the daddy Bush's '89 mil-type rifle import ban that began the "no sporting purpose" (according to whom?) test and the ban of FALs, G-3s, FNC's all but a few AK-style rifles? That's why the importation of decent and inexpensive SAR rifles has been shut down and now people have to do the ridiculous "kit" thing to get any of the rifles mentioned that you could import before the "conservative" old man Bush screwed it up for all of us. That's why we have a "parts count" issue.

 

IN light of the '89 import ban fiasco, what on God's green earth could possibly make you think that you could put idiotically heavy and reasonably useless drums on Saigas and have the BATFE look the other way? What have you been smoking?

 

Why is this ****ing thread still here???????

Edited November 16, 2004 by inparidel

[Control3 3]

The 8 round magazines actually hold 9 rounds and function just fine. This drum only holds one more round, so unless the price is around that of the 8 round magazines (or less), I don't see the point. I guess if it's a saddle drum like the Beta you could go prone.

 

Not to mention the bad potential this has for NFA'ing the Saiga as a DD.

[swiftvision 0]

Why is it bad to be DD?

 

I understand that I wish NO gun was DD but if you already got one....it's only going to make them worth 5x what you paid. And you won't have to pay any extra.

[G O B 3,516]

Maybe we might want another. DD Bad news. Many states=CONFISCATED.

(Maybe the gungrabbers are not active in your state,but if they win in ours-YOU are NEXT)

G O B

[cpileri 0]

Somebody already made a big ol' 20 rd drum. Maybe talk to him:

 

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/haulikko.html

 

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/QA13.html

 

Ideas, not results.

C-

[CIB 0]

Don't think you'll get away with not paying the 200 buck stamp.

If they become DD then you'll have to register it. If you fail to then

I would imagin the BATF stormtroopers will be knocking on your door.

IF the Saiga goes DD, there will be an amnesty registration period, ie no tax due. Same thing with the Street Sweeper and Stryker 12, I had a Street Sweeper at the time. Yes, registration will be required that's easy enough to do if you live in one of the free states. The only upside that I can personally see to the DD classification is a DD can have any length barrel you want. FWIW, I think any 12 gauge being listed as a DD is idiotic. Guys, lets wait and see there is no garantee of anything one way or the other right now.

[Cesiumsponge 0]

Damnit, time to prepare the Form 4

[inparidel 4]

Why is it bad to be DD?

 

I understand that I wish NO gun was DD but if you already got one....it's only going to make them worth 5x what you paid. And you won't have to pay any extra.

I am speechless. . . What's bad?? Oh, lets see. . .no one else who doesn't already own one will be able to get a simple Saiga because some selfish people screwed it up to raise the value of their "investment." Another decent gun will be banned . . .do we need more banned? What if you want another one? Want one for your kid . . . It will fuel BS arguments that we are all psychos and lead to more gun grabbing. . . need more?

[inparidel 4]

Somebody already made a big ol' 20 rd drum. Maybe talk to him:

 

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/haulikko.html

 

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/QA13.html

 

Ideas, not results.

C-

Thank God that's an Atchinson, not a Saiga. Gun owners are their own worst enemies.. Keep pissing in your / our oatmeal dude.

[Cesiumsponge 0]

imparidel said it very well. While we might already have one, those prospective owners would now most likely ignore the paperwork needed for the Saiga 12 and it'll forever be known as "one of those DD things". Sales would drop and it will automatically get a bad reputation from anti-gunners as being a gun "bad enough" that it needs to be "branded as a destructive device" by the BATF.

 

I personally don't want to see it go DD. I don't plan on buying a ton of Saigas and wait for it to go up in value. I got it as something to shoot, not a financial investment. To ruin it for everyone else would be the epitome of selfishness. Remember, there are those out there who are just like you and will learn about the Saiga 12 at some point in time and become hooked. Turning it DD will help no one.

 

It'd also go against you in a court of law in the event you needed to unload one in self-defense. The prosecuting lawyer would say something along the lines of "oh no, Mr. X was looking for a fight; he needed to use a special mankiller shotgun that is so powerful that the BATF ruled it a destructive device subject to special regulations and paperwork". Of course this could apply to any tactical add-ons and so forth, I don't like the idea of using a DD for self-defense because it WILL likely be brought up in a court of law against you somehow.

 

Many of us would not think about applying a double standard on someone who happened to use a DD, AOW, SBS, AR15, or M16 with a beta-C mag in a case of self-defense. It would be no more a tool than a pump 870 or a 22 pistol to stop an advancing, life-threatening individual. However, the judge and jury might look at it otherwise.

[Tomac 0]

I'm w/Spongie on this. I'd much rather have the Saiga avoid the "DD" designation ensuring future availability. I feel the same way about the 8rd mags: I'm currently paying $80+ each but will gladly eat the difference should they be imported in quantity and the price drops to $40 or less.

Tomac

[CIB 0]

I've been thinking (I know, I know:)). Were'nt the SS and S12's banned/classified by name only, not feeding device? Can't remember for sure, it's been awhile.

Just for the hell of it, I would'nt not hesitate to use an SBS, SBR, or DD in self-defense. Of course I live in an area of the country, that if your shooting's justified your not gonna be prosecuted. We're not too much on frivolous lawsuits either.

[jesusplayedwithwood 0]

I've been thinking (I know, I know:)). Were'nt the SS and S12's banned/classified by name only, not feeding device? Can't remember for sure, it's been awhile.

Just for the hell of it, I would'nt not hesitate to use an SBS, SBR, or DD in self-defense. Of course I live in an area of the country, that if your shooting's justified your not gonna be prosecuted. We're not too much on frivolous lawsuits either.

What part of the country is that?

 

And I agree whole-heartedly with Cesiumsponge and Tomac. I started with a Saiga .223 and got hooked. I pick up my 12 on friday, and I have future plans for getting a .308 as my Remington 7400 is a picky little bitch in the reliability department (accurate though). Seeing any Saiga go the DD route would be a shame, as every one of my freinds that have handled the .223 have loved it (even the anti-AK types) and when I told most of them there was a 12-guage version their reaction was about the same as mine.....instant hard-on.

 

Note: Soon after purchasing my .223 it got the nickname "Viagra"

[Risasi 1]

Personally I think this is a sad, sad day now.

 

Obviously we now have a distinct division in the gun owners of America. On one hand we have the guys going:

 

"I bought a gun, I want to put whatever I want on it. How do you guys think I can go about building <N> device"?

 

Then you have group number two:

 

"Oh no!! You shouldn't do <N> to your gun. You're being selfish, by spending your dollars, and then not thinking about others. What if this, what if that is banned by Government Entity <N>?

 

 

Let me be brief. In group one we have generally law abiding people who have a dream of doing whatever they want, government be damned!! But if such a law is passed curbing their activities the vast majority will still abide by the new law.

 

Now in group two we have the Chicken Little, sky is falling (heh, or sky might be falling) attitude. This group is worrying about what MIGHT happen. And they might be right. They fit the bill of group number one, generally law abiding, civil. But there is one major difference. They are operating on past, present, and perhaps even non-existent future events. They generally have the same hopes and dreams, but are willing to curb them out of fear. Rather than live by principle.

 

I got a question for the both of you; If a government, such as ours. Who has a bill of rights in place; (Meaning they are certain inalienable rights that every human has, citizen or not. Granted by no man, but certainly oppressed by many men.) If then

this government starts to put oppressive laws unto you, and they continually pile them on, one after another. My question now, how long before you finally say;

"No!"...

 

Look let me be blunt. The very thing you are accusing the pro-drum guys of, that they are selfish. You yourselves are guilty of. I say you are being selfish, not to fellow gun owners of today. But the future generation. You are rolling over and sacrificing certain liberties to live in peace now, but the future is what is payed out to cover your amnesties now. The British Empire taxed our great, wonderful, sorry, rebellious little country to the point it cracked. A bunch of guys in Boston finally said; "Enough!" Then they went out and broke the law and threw a bunch of tea into the harbor. Well the rest is history. (BTW: Remind a Lib that our country was founded by breaking the law, it drives them nuts.)

 

Now I'm not planning on starting a flame war here, or trying to start a revolt against our government, or anything like that. I'm trying to get you to ask yourself a question really. I either expect many to sound off and not reason by logic to what I have just said. Or as is the order of the day, simply roll over with an apathetic compliance.

 

I will tell you that I personally have mentally drawn a line. I go; "Okay, you tax me, fine I'll pay out. Even though you guys are tyrants about it. Okay you are killing babies, that is murder". But even though this is horribly wrong, and really no different than Pagan ritualistic blood/fire offerings. I'm not going to start shooting doctors. But now if they walk up to me and start saying; "Papers please"... Or they want me to hand over my guns forget it. I'll make a stand, and I won't mind dying for it. Look, when I walk out of Sam's Club. Well when I used to shop there, I would NOT let the SS guy at the door look at my receipt. It's MY receipt. He has no business looking at it. I give him an option, he either tries to have a bully arrest me, or he drops it. They have always dropped it. There is a certain moral force that the common man has. And you stick by it, or eventually you put yourself in servitude. Which are you? A tolerant citizen, who can only be pushed so far? Or are you an unwilling future subject of the state?

 

Let these guys have their fun with drums. If nothing else invent a sport for shotgun that requires large ammo capacity. Then it has a sporting purpose. Duh....

 

BTW: I own two Saiga 12's now. And I'm looking for parts/upgrades. Obviously I'm one of the pro-drum guys...

 

Regards,

 

Nelson

[hardcorps1775 1]

damn bruddah, kinda harsh for a first post!

 

ever heard of being gun-shy? no pun intended...

 

i want a drum. i need a drum. everytime i think about a drum mag for my saiga12 my pants get tight. but i can understand where the non-drummers come from. our gov't has shown over and over they don't give a rat's ass about our rights. the atf is an out-of-control group of thugs who have been given free-reign for years to issue executive orders and edicts restricting and criminalizing law abiding citizens. they will and have used the slightest excuses to do so. theseguys just don't wanna give them fodder to feed on.

 

anyway, welcome aboard! glad to see the s12 community growning by leaps and bounds!

[smitty 0]

Is Patrick Henry in here or what? Sometimes we need to be reminded of the true liberty that the Founding Fathers of this country laid their lives on the line for. I applaud you.

[swiftvision 0]

Risasi; Myself and Thomas Jefferson both shed a tear today over that post.

[Cesiumsponge 0]

Nothing harsh on the first post. If someone won't defend their opinion, it's not worth defending!

 

Anyhow, I see things this way. I'm sorry to put reality into perspective, but a few guys with Saiga-12 drums aren't going to topple the BATF unless you're prepared financially to battle it out in court and somehow manage to educate every layman in the courtroom and have them see things from your perspective. Unless all 60M+ (~20% US population) gun owners systematically and simultaneously take action against the BATF, a few dozen people here or there being abused by the BATF is not going to go noticed by most people outside a tight-knit firearms community.

 

Hundreds of years ago, we were a thriving little colony of the British empire. We were pushed, and pushed, and pushed hard enough that we fought back eventually (as you mentioned). This wasn't 20% of the population that felt this was the proper course of action--it was basically ALL the population.

 

The difference between then and now is that gun owners comprise a resonably large slice of the population but we also have a very formidible group of Americans who are opposed to our ideals of gun ownership--about half of the US population. You can stereotypically label them as "libbies", "democraps" or whatever cute subscription you have labeled any anti-gunners. There are also a slice of gun owners who believe AK-47's. hi-cap mags, drums, and other toys that many enjoy should not exist. They are ignorant to the ways of the law and see a drum as a fully-automatic, high-explosive schoolchildren-demolishing device; if the device is unsuitable for hunting, then it is useless... period. If everyone was simply against the BATF, its doubtful they would exist today.

 

However, this isn't so and the country is divided on the issues. We have anti-gun nuts spreading rhetoric about the poor children and whatnot. Sure, you can do what you want to your guns within the bounds of legal law and gamble that the BATF can won't create arbitrary new rulings against your creation on a whim, but don't expect every fellow man to run behind and support you like they did to the British 300 years ago. Undoubtedly, half of them will run up in front of you, chastise your decisions, and kick you between the legs. Its an unfortunate reality.

 

Would I purchase a drum if it caused no issues on dooming the weapon as a DD? Yes, I would. I think everyone should be free to enjoy the Saiga-12 firearm as it's one helluva experience! However, this seems inevitable as there will always be someone to push the limits and parade their accomplishments (and rightfully so since they're proud of their tinkering). I only hope the BATF, if and when they discover this, can be reasonable and realize no laws are being violated. Yeah, and I'm a chinese fighter pilot.

 

On a side-note, I know Pagans and they don't burn babies by the bushel in giant bonfires. I'd be offended if I happened to subscribe to it. I don't see what purpose it served in your rant

Edited November 18, 2004 by Cesiumsponge

[KySoldier 2]

Cesiumsponge: Glad you pointed out that of the huge gun owning population of the US, there is a substantial amount of people that simply hunt, do a little target shooting, or have a gun for home protection (and know nothing outside of that). These people do not voice their rights and some look at us like we're crazy for wanting any gun not specifically designed for hunting.

 

Risasi: Good post and comparison of how we are now divided on the drum issue. I think we all can agree though that it IS our right to build one and we CAN do so whenever we want, its just a matter of choosing when and how to do it.

 

I agree that a few people on here making their Saiga's into something "radical" isn't going to sway the big bad ATF, but if a converted, or even nonconverted S-12 is used in a crime, God help us.

[drooling idiot 1]

Hundreds of years ago, we were a thriving little colony of the British empire.  We were pushed, and pushed, and pushed hard enough that we fought back eventually (as you mentioned).  This wasn't 20% of the population that felt this was the proper course of action--it was basically ALL the population.

not to nit-pick too much but the accepted figures are approximately 1/3 pro-colonial, 1/3 pro-england , and 1/3 could care less just want to stay out of the line of fire and live a normal life.

so if we are at the 20% mark, you quote, were not too far away from the time when enough is enough.

[Risasi 1]

Cesiumsponge,

 

I'm not so sure "we all" kicked England out of this country, I think the movie The Patriot managed to capture the essence of men broadly speaking. You see sinners, and cowards, you see noble and patriots. And you see all of these qualities in all of these men at that time. Why do you think they argued over what to do for so many years? (BTW: I hate it when guys use movie analogies )

 

But anyway, I believe you missed my point. This is not small stakes poker. These are very serious offenses against the very fabric of our Constitution, especially the first ten amendments. And let me drill down on the ninth amendment for a minute:

 

Amendment IX - Construction of Constitution. Ratified 12/15/1791.

 

The enumeration (numbering) in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

 

Why is that there? Why indeed! The numbering of certain rights, rights already in the Constitution thus far (certainly you can agree amendments 1-8 are included here), cannot deny or overstep others held by THE PEOPLE. In other words, the first eight are the ones important enough they felt it necessary to write them down, but that does not mean all rights are defined or that they can be for that matter. This amendment is establishing a precedent. We the people have the right to say what we want, defend ourselves by carrying arms (this includes the goblin at night, and overthrowing a tyrant government). The right to deny any soldier from quartering in our house, or the right against illegal search and seizure. The right to no double jeopardy, or to witness against himself, the right to a speedy trial. And so forth. But, and this is a big but.

 

But these amendments do not grant us these rights. We have them simply for being born. This is everybody. Let me pose two questions:

 

1. What if the government put a lockdown on the first amendment. No right to free speech. Or even better, let's say you sign a piece of paper saying to resign this right. Have you lost this right? Yes or no?

 

2. A Samburu or a Massai in Kenya, Africa has no law in his own country granting him the rights of our first amendment. Let's say whether he is over in his home country, or he is here, but still a citizen of his country. Does he not have the right to free speech? Yes or no?

 

The answer consummately is an obvious one. Even if the government abolished the Bill of Rights, or you penned them away this means nothing. You have these rights NATURALLY, God given rights. They cannot be taken away, merely suppressed. I alluded to this with my first post. Likewise the Massai tribesman has every right that you do, to free speech, a speedy trial, to defend himself. They are simply not acknowledged by his government. I hope you are beginning to see what I am trying to convey.

 

Say the federal government falls into despotism, or our country is hit by an asteroid thrown at us by the Islams, or whatever. Have our rights changed? No, not in the slightest. Did the black man of the 19th century not have these rights? Heck yeah he had them, they were just suppressed* (*probably, there were a lot of exceptions to the rule with slavery. Like the 3,000-4,000 slave owners who were black at the time of the Civil War). Or how about William Wallace, did he not have the right to stand and rebel against a tyrant government entity? How would you react to an American in this day leading a revolt against our government, if his wife and unborn child were murdered? I can venture a guess. Most would say; "Yeah that was wrong what they did to this man, but he went too far"...

 

Anyway I am probably beating a dead horse by now.

 

As to your side note let me just say this: Approximately 1.3 MILLION babies are killed every year by abortion. Since Roe vs. Wade 45 MILLION people's lives were cut short in the US of A. That would be what, roughly 17% of what our population is now, immigrant/illegals included? That is almost all gunowners, according to your statistics. I once had a friend telling me how uncivilized abortion is. I told him no, it's barbaric. In my first post I was contrasting that in our country we have a moral evil. We kill innocent, defenseless humans. And why? Because they are a nuisance and economic burden. And don't give me the rape/incest line. If we have 1.3 million rapes going on each year we have a much more serious problem. As for pagan/ritualistic groups you just haven't seen the right groups. There is no moral high ground you can take with this. Drinking blood is wrong, killing people is wrong. It certainly isn't morally neutral, and I was contrasting the barbarism of chopping babies up, or sucking their brains out to such things as the Massai blood drinking rituals, or Luo rituals of ravaging the multiple wives and children of a recently dead relative. Or these sexual predators we have running around in this country, where do you think all the missing kids go? Which by the way is a seven digit figure. Review the stats, but by all appearances to FBI data, and other entities they reference, roughly 4% of all children disappear.

 

Now with all that said this is not really a discussion about abortion, or the government possibly infringing on our rights (again). Or what an evil cruel place this world is, USA included. This was about people making drums for our beloved Saigas.

 

KySoldier: I really don't see this as a division over a drum, but a division of people who understand their freedom, and those who would throw some of it away to save other portions that they care about. And again don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just calling a spade a spade. The easiest thing in the world is to call evil what it is. Doing something about it though is an entirely different matter. Which is why you don't see me in the news with an army of Saiga toting ninjas going 12 Monkeys on our government.

[Risasi 1]

Thanks for the stats Drooling Idiot.

 

Or do you prefer Mr. Idiot? Sorry I have to ask, anyone who looks like Homer Simpson, with a revolver, and calls himself a drooling idiot makes me nervous.

 

[Risasi 1]

Okay, I'll get off of my soapbox now. I'm real interested in this adapter idea to allow a Knoxx drum to work with a saiga.

[Cesiumsponge 0]

[Lagomorph 0]

I might as well jump on the bandwagon. Heres a little something I cooked up in 3ds max in my spare time, If only I had the funds and the full comitment time to actually go to prototype.

[Cesiumsponge 0]

Neato; looks like its the big brother of the Beta-C mag!

[SaltPeter 6]

That drum sure looks cool, but you might as well put a tripod on your gun with that thing. Way heavy for carrying.

[jtf979 0]

I like the 25 round drum idea. I was thinking of a drum made of PVC pipe, a spring with a follower, and the top of a Saiga 5 rounder. Where would you find a spring that would work? I tried to do a search of springs online but only got a bunch of bogus results. You could probably make a large drum out of parts from Home Depot or Lowes. Hmm... I may try it. It could be done on the cheap. Except for the 5 rounder sacrifice.

 

All I need is a strong compression spring that is long enough and I think I will give it a shot. I guess this is kind of a competition to see who can finish it first. We all know it will happen sometime. My 90 rounder AR-15 drum is the most ghetto thing I have ever seen but it functions great at the range.

Edited November 19, 2004 by jtf979

[inparidel 4]

Jesus H. Mahoney. ..you just don't get it, do you. patriots. . .abortions. . .what next?

 

Back on planet earth. . .or should I say planet US. . .I have been shooting all my life. I have been a grave-digger and a construction laborer and a floor cleaner. Late in life, I decided that I could change things if I went to law school and practiced law. I did. I have seen gun legislation change over the last 20 years in a way that frightens me.. If you are frightened, you are smart. If a building you are in is burning and you are frightened, you ae smart. Pie-in-the-sky ideas of how it should be are great. Hang onto those ideas and be olitically ACTIVE for them. Ignoring the smoke in the air is stupid. .IF YOU DO SOMETHING POLITICAL THE SYSTEM CAN RECOGNIZE OR AT LEAST CAN"T DO ANYTHING ABOUT, you are a modern hero. We don't live in such a system at his moment.

 

The better part of wisdom in our system, as it is, is "out of sight, out of mind." Keep your house and vote property taxes and interest rates. Keep you kids in school and vote your educational budgets. Keep your guns and vote your rights to keep them. DON'T give the opposition the excuse they need (and they don't need much) to take them. This ain't Boston, and you ain't Mel Gibson asking for make-up to run in and powder the shine off of your nose.

 

The USAS is a fine gun that had box mags. It wasn't on the BATFE radar as a DD untilthe drum came out. That's what the coffee smells like on this planet. I sugest you put your nose to the air.

[Risasi 1]