More Musings upon Red Dot Sights--

[Ductapeman 1]

--so I will soon (finally!) be getting my S-12 back from the shop, and I'm back to wondering about sights. I would like to use a red-dot sight, for ease and rapidity of acquisition, and naturally I would like to use a Russian-designed sight. I remember some folks saying that the Kobras didn't stand up very well to the repeated heavy recoil these blasters dish out, so now I'm thinking, okay, it's been a while since the S-12 really started gaining popularity, and folks have been using a variety of sights for a while now-- what has proven to be long-term durable? I'm leaning toward either a PK-01 or PK-AS-- comments? Discussion? Anything better now from the Russians?

[PogueMahone 0]

there was something wrong with the pk-as? i ask cuz i have one on mine and am wondering if something's gonna go wrong with it!

[Bean.223 365]

If price isnt a problem, the Eotechs are the way to go!!!!

 

Cheap on is about $360

[Threecard 15]

Wow, it's like you all read my mind. I want to get a red dot, but really don't want to spend over $100 bucks. I think way to much in terms of percentages, I guess, and have a hard time spending 1/3 as much on a sight as I spent on the gun.

 

On the other hand, I'm thinking the cheapo versions I see at various retailers probably aren't worth a crap. I'll be interested to see what everyone has to say.

[mrwilson 5]

I have a PK-01. Cost me $129. They are hard to find though.

[mark78410 0]

Put a JP on it, I removed mine and dove cut so I could mount the JP on mine with the new stock I put head on the stock and look down the site and love it.

[oldandslow 3]

I like C-More. I remove the picatinney rail from the Belarus mount and bolt it direct (after drilling and tapping the mount). I do this to get the C-more as close as possible to the Saiga.

[Garys4598 1,065]

Me too! I've been pondering what red dot optic to use on my inbound S-12 as well.

 

I had onhand a Docter red dot optic.... which reportedly was all the rave concerning the Tromix Comp S-12.... but have since decided to have the Docter optic directly mounted on my Steyr M40-A1 pistol's slide. There is an important aspect to that which I will share in another follow-on post with everyone in a moment (I don't want to digress). So, that left me with looking for another red dot optic option for the S-12.

 

Currently, I'm leaning heavily toward the ATN - Ultra Digital Comp pictured at bottom. Interestingly, although ATN is the abbreviation for "American Technoligies Network" Corporation, apparently all of their products are largely manufactured in the Ukraine! (My ATN 10x65Z day scope is). So there you have another option for a product that has a "Russian connection or link."

 

IF ANYONE HAS HANDS-ON EXPERIENCE WITH THIS SPECIFIC ATN OPTIC I would be hugely appreciative to learn of your experiences and results with it????

Edited February 23, 2008 by Gary

[Garys4598 1,065]

So here's the deal (what I have learned) regarding the Docter red dot optic (as referenced above):

 

I've shared two telephone conversations with Mr. Dean Makkos of Docter USA (yes, that's correct.... I've had conversations with Dean Makkos... ). When I inquired with him about having my pistol's slide CNC machined to accept a Docter red dot optic, Dean immediately came back with, "... then you will need to send me your Docter red dot so that I can "rebuild it" to allow the optic to withstand the stress associated with being mounted on a semi-auto pistol's slide. Otherwise, it will likely last for only approximately 50 to 100 rounds of shooting."

 

So okay folks, I found THAT rather surprising. I mean, the Docter red dot optic has been (to my understanding) touted as one of the premier small-sized red dot optics on the shooting circuit. It's all metal construction and glass lense were reportedly the best thing going, which was one of the reasons why the optic was so expensive (not to mention it being manufactured in Germany). Dean said he would need to "heavily" re-solder every electronic connection within the optic, and then "shore-up" the optic's innards. So, the next day my optic found itself being mailed off to Dean Makkos in Florida, with a hefty $189.00 personal check for Dean's services and return postage.

 

Dudes, I am obviously left wondering.... if the Docter red dot optic requires this sort of service and rebuild in order for it to survive the vibration and shock of functioning on an semi-auto pistol's slide, what would happen to it were over the long-haul if directly mounted to a S-12 without the optic being rebuilt??? I mean, which weapon platform provides more vibration and stress to the optics mounted to it: a Saiga-12 shotgun or a semi-auto pistol's slide????

 

Although admitting to being an absolute dolt about such knowledge, personally, I would think vibrations associated with a 12guage shotgun would be higher than those associated with a pistol's slide going through its battery during firing.

 

But as stated, I don't know shit from shiola about such things.

Edited February 23, 2008 by Gary

[LdyGunner 0]

Most USPSA Shooters using Docter sights have had them "bulletproofed" by Bevin Grams. His waiting list is not as long as the Tromix waiting list, but it's long and it's worth it.

 

So here's the deal (what I have learned) regarding the Docter red dot optic (as referenced above):

 

Dudes, I am obviously left wondering.... if the Docter red dot optic requires this sort of service and rebuild in order for it to survive the vibration and shock of functioning on an semi-auto pistol's slide, what would happen to it were over the long-haul if directly mounted to a S-12 without the optic being rebuilt??? I mean, which weapon platform provides more vibration and stress to the optics mounted to it: a Saiga-12 shotgun or a semi-auto pistol's slide????

[Garys4598 1,065]

Most USPSA Shooters using Docter sights have had them "bulletproofed" by Bevin Grams. His waiting list is not as long as the Tromix waiting list, but it's long and it's worth it.

Well... that's most interesting.

 

I never would have guessed that such a small, itty-bitty device would need such "rebuilding."

 

Dare I say it?

 

 

Such kinda reeks of inappropriate marketing and "design."

 

Just my opinion mind you. (Go ahead... let the flaming begin!)

Edited February 23, 2008 by Gary

[gtnichols 51]

Under any condition or ammunition choice, One would have to beleive that the Saiga 12 has more disruptive vibrational force than any other hand held , except some large Precision ball buster or something,.. I have used a red dot on evrything from a BB gun to a .45 and never had any problems,...

What's the rub here?

 

 

 

So here's the deal (what I have learned) regarding the Docter red dot optic (as referenced above):

 

I've shared two telephone conversations with Mr. Dean Makkos of Docter USA (yes, that's correct.... I've had conversations with Dean Makkos... ). When I inquired with him about having my pistol's slide CNC machined to accept a Docter red dot optic, Dean immediately came back with, "... then you will need to send me your Docter red dot so that I can "rebuild it" to allow the optic to withstand the stress associated with being mounted on a semi-auto pistol's slide. Otherwise, it will likely last for only approximately 50 to 100 rounds of shooting."

 

So okay folks, I found THAT rather surprising. I mean, the Docter red dot optic has been (to my understanding) touted as one of the premier small-sized red dot optics on the shooting circuit. It's all metal construction and glass lense were reportedly the best thing going, which was one of the reasons why the optic was so expensive (not to mention it being manufactured in Germany). Dean said he would need to "heavily" re-solder every electronic connection within the optic, and then "shore-up" the optic's innards. So, the next day my optic found itself being mailed off to Dean Makkos in Florida, with a hefty $189.00 personal check for Dean's services and return postage.

 

Dudes, I am obviously left wondering.... if the Docter red dot optic requires this sort of service and rebuild in order for it to survive the vibration and shock of functioning on an semi-auto pistol's slide, what would happen to it were over the long-haul if directly mounted to a S-12 without the optic being rebuilt??? I mean, which weapon platform provides more vibration and stress to the optics mounted to it: a Saiga-12 shotgun or a semi-auto pistol's slide????

 

Although admitting to being an absolute dolt about such knowledge, personally, I would think vibrations associated with a 12guage shotgun would be higher than those associated with a pistol's slide going through its battery during firing.

 

But as stated, I don't know shit from shiola about such things.

[topmaul 42]

Mr. Wilson,

WHere did you find a Pk01 is yours the one with the automatic brightness control? I have been looking high and low for one

[mrwilson 5]

Don't remember. I'll try and find it. I pretty much googled for it and found one etailer that didn't say 'out of stock'. I emailed them for status and they had several. This was last year. Yes it's the auto brightness one. I mainly bought because it has a black dot if the battery is dead making it still usuable. It's pretty sturdy, except for the on/off swich battery cover. That part seems flimsy but has worked well.

[topmaul 42]

I already have one and never liked the on off switch but over like the sight. If I can't find one I think I will go with the PK-AS-W it seems pretty well built.

[Garys4598 1,065]

Under any condition or ammunition choice, One would have to beleive that the Saiga 12 has more disruptive vibrational force than any other hand held , except some large Precision ball buster or something,.. I have used a red dot on evrything from a BB gun to a .45 and never had any problems,...

What's the rub here?

The "rub here" is the notion that a firearms aftermarket manufacturer would research; conduct consumer marketing, and then design an optic instrument that is intended to be mounted onto a firearm, pretty-darned-much ANY firearm, and function per its design... yet obviously it DOES NOT!

 

Like "duh!" I don't appreciate having to send the optic off to have the product "rebuilt" in order for it not to crap-out after 100 or so rounds.

 

What? Am I speaking Greek or something???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2008 by Gary

[mrwilson 5]

Found it. This is the place I ordered from:

 

http://www.kalinkaoptics.com/detail.aspx?ID=109

 

Make sure you order batteries too.

[topmaul 42]

Ductapeman,

 

I would advise going with eastern block military grade optics, you get something hat will last for a good price. I have a PK-01 w/automaitc brightness control, but am really thinking about the PK-AS if you saw my posting on OA2.com I plan to have very different set up with my 3 gun rifle and shotgun. With the Red Dot way forward. This will allow me to sight both weapons the same way.

 

Thanks Mr. Wilson

Edited February 24, 2008 by topmaul

[GTwannabe 1]

So here's the deal (what I have learned) regarding the Docter red dot optic (as referenced above):

 

I've shared two telephone conversations with Mr. Dean Makkos of Docter USA (yes, that's correct.... I've had conversations with Dean Makkos... ). When I inquired with him about having my pistol's slide CNC machined to accept a Docter red dot optic, Dean immediately came back with, "... then you will need to send me your Docter red dot so that I can "rebuild it" to allow the optic to withstand the stress associated with being mounted on a semi-auto pistol's slide. Otherwise, it will likely last for only approximately 50 to 100 rounds of shooting."

 

So okay folks, I found THAT rather surprising. I mean, the Docter red dot optic has been (to my understanding) touted as one of the premier small-sized red dot optics on the shooting circuit. It's all metal construction and glass lense were reportedly the best thing going, which was one of the reasons why the optic was so expensive (not to mention it being manufactured in Germany). Dean said he would need to "heavily" re-solder every electronic connection within the optic, and then "shore-up" the optic's innards. So, the next day my optic found itself being mailed off to Dean Makkos in Florida, with a hefty $189.00 personal check for Dean's services and return postage.

 

Dudes, I am obviously left wondering.... if the Docter red dot optic requires this sort of service and rebuild in order for it to survive the vibration and shock of functioning on an semi-auto pistol's slide, what would happen to it were over the long-haul if directly mounted to a S-12 without the optic being rebuilt??? I mean, which weapon platform provides more vibration and stress to the optics mounted to it: a Saiga-12 shotgun or a semi-auto pistol's slide????

 

Although admitting to being an absolute dolt about such knowledge, personally, I would think vibrations associated with a 12guage shotgun would be higher than those associated with a pistol's slide going through its battery during firing.

 

But as stated, I don't know shit from shiola about such things.

 

Here's an improved Doctor-style red dot (auto-brightness, waterproofed, able to change battery without removing sight):

 

http://www.rapidreticle.com/sopscauto.htm

 

Tested on 44-magnum, 454 Casull, 500 S&W, 12Ga shotgun with slugs and 00B, MP-5's, 9x21's, Glock 9MM and airguns. One of our test sights did not lose its zero after 7,000 rounds fired from a Glock 9MM pistol.

- Sounds sturdy to me!

 

I think the slide-mount would be much more stressful than a Saiga mount because the slide travels back and forth at high speed with a sudden jolt at each end.

 

Found it. This is the place I ordered from:

 

http://www.kalinkaoptics.com/detail.aspx?ID=109

 

Make sure you order batteries too.

 

The model Kalinka sells does not have automatic brightness (8 manual settings). I have heard that the auto-brightness model works well, but eats batteries like crazy and the on/off lacks positive engagement/stops.

 

This place sells them for $149 - haven't dealt with them though

 

http://www.binocularsmart.com/scopes/ar-15...ver-mount.shtml

[mrwilson 5]

That's a good price.

 

Mine from Kalinka is the auto-brightness model. It has the auto iris. There is no way way to 'set' the brightness. I think that description is describing eight different level of auto brightness.

[topmaul 42]

let me staighten this out I have both the manual and automatic style the manual does not get bright enough for normal daylight use. Klinka refused to take it back or repair it insisting that it works fine. The Auto works great and I really like it.

 

The auto does not eat batteries at least not mine, I have left it on for a week of course it was in a gun case but it was left on and worked fine. Batteries are cheap so I will often replace the batteries before a match.

[Pointer 21]

Whatever you get just make sure it has a good warrenty and repair service and is able to back it up.You cant go wrong with Eotechs and C-mores,they been around for a long time and will likely still be here 10 years from now.I had a red dot called a OKO that i used on my Saiga 12 for a couple years that held up,its on a AR now..not sure if its still made or not.

[getitat 609]

Cry once (when you have to pay for it...) and score an EoTech. Not only much more robust in construction, but the comparitively huge sight-picture is much more conducive to the "two-eyes-open Holographic" style of sighting.

Also, the small (1-3 MOA) dot is encircled by a large (35 MOA?) circle to allow much quicker acquisition. The Docter is great for a pistol or carbine, (I have one on my AK47 pistol, it's perfect for that). I personally feel the EoTech is nearly custom-designed for the S-12's.

May not be important to many folks, but the EoTech is also "Mil-Spec" height, allowing co-witness with BUIS through the reticle, whether it's turned on or off. You can also replace the batteries without tools or removing the sight from the weapon (weak spot for Docter)

 

In the long run, it will likely be cheaper and less gnashing of teeth to get the best!

 

JMHO....

 

guido2 in Houston

[gtnichols 51]

I see your point,.Make it, and make it right and to last

 

 

Under any condition or ammunition choice, One would have to beleive that the Saiga 12 has more disruptive vibrational force than any other hand held , except some large Precision ball buster or something,.. I have used a red dot on evrything from a BB gun to a .45 and never had any problems,...

What's the rub here?

The "rub here" is the notion that a firearms aftermarket manufacturer would research; conduct consumer marketing, and then design an optic instrument that is intended to be mounted onto a firearm, pretty-darned-much ANY firearm, and function per its design... yet obviously it DOES NOT!

 

Like "duh!" I don't appreciate having to send the optic off to have the product "rebuilt" in order for it not to crap-out after 100 or so rounds.

 

What? Am I speaking Greek or something???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

[6500rpm 670]

I feel Gary's pain from the point that the docter is supposed to be tops in it's class, and the adds show them slide mounted with custom "melt in's' and don't say a word about having to send it back to be bullet proofed. With that said, there have been multiple posts by Wakal and Jamshot which talk about sending them out if you want them to last, and even then, it's more about extending life rather than making them indestructable.

I'd like to know just what the failure points are, and if the problems have been addressed up front with the latest version. I'd also like to know what kind of warranty they carry. I do like the size, sight picture, and low mounting option of the Docter and it's clones the best on the S12, just haven't decided on what one to drop my cash on other than the J Point that I've used as a trial fit.

[Havoc308 3]

Bushnell Holosight is an EOtech without the metal jacket. Usually run about $100 cheaper too. L3 supports them as well...

[topmaul 42]

I for one am going for the PK-AS-W

[BobAsh 582]

Riding on a pistol slide is tougher duty than any long arm, imo.

[aresv 49]

Just curious as to why some prefer to mount red dot sights so far forward on the gun? For a given size sight, you'll get a wider field of view by mounting it farther aft.

[Pointer 21]

A red dot isnt like a tube scope as you are looking thru the scope focusing on the crosshairs to the target.A fast action red dot is made more for both eyes open focusing on the target and letting the red dot "float"..hard to describe, but with practice you actualy look past the dot and focus more on the target alowing more natural open field of view.With more precise shooting you can focus more on the dot.So with the red dot more forward on the gun it allows a wider unobstructed view.