Caspian 32 Posted December 26, 2004 Report Share Posted December 26, 2004 we're splitting hypothetical hairs here. At least we agree that there is no such thing as a garfathered Saiga vs. a DD if they were reclassified by the ATF. Ultimately, it comes down to "non-sporting". you are relying on their current definition. I'm guessing that could and would be reworded to fit whatever they wanted to nab. Therefore, it would fall under the Striker/Street Sweeper DD classification. I think it really doesn't matter. There's no real reason to classify it as a DD when you can put a mag tube extension on a Rem 1100 which holds 9 shots. Would those be reclassified as well? Caspian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CIB 0 Posted December 26, 2004 Report Share Posted December 26, 2004 Guys, we're all on the same side here. All Street Sweeper and Stryker-12's are DD no matter where you live. Yes, they are Grandfathered as far as the registered ones go, basicly the same way that AW were after the '94 ban. Interestingly enough only something like 60% were registered, may not have been that high I can't remember the exact numbers. At any rate nothing has happened yet, and nothing may happen. Does anyone know for sure what happens to weapons in states that don't allow DD's when/if the ATF reclassifiys to said guns? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted December 26, 2004 Report Share Posted December 26, 2004 good question. ill have to go ask my lawyer this week about that... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ozone_00 3 Posted December 26, 2004 Report Share Posted December 26, 2004 Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of the grandfather clause was that IF S-12 were declaired DD, the would be an amnesty period when current owners would be exempt from the $200 tax and approval process, but would still have to register their guns as DD. Here's where the pains in the ass come in. What if you want another one? What if you didn't hear about the DD declairation and are now in posession of an unregistered DD? Also, one guy making a drum mag would not make S-12 a DD, but ready availability of drums might lead to a re-evaluation. An avalanche starts with one snowflake; journey of a thousand miles starts with one step; etc. Some guys are saying that DD is inevitable for S-12. If you believe this, don't you want to delay it as long as possible? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Caspian 32 Posted December 26, 2004 Report Share Posted December 26, 2004 good question. ill have to go ask my lawyer this week about that... unless your lawyer specializes in NFA, i doubt he'll be able to give you the right answer. ask on www.subguns.com and you'll get yer answer. caspian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RDSWriter 5 Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 Folks... I understand your concerns, but if the ATF classified the Saiga 12S a SPORTING SHOTGUN under an unfriendly administration like Clinton and Reno as available to be imported for civilian sale, there is NO WAY the Bush admin will declare the same UNMODIFIED shotgun as a DD. Unmodified Saiga 12Ss have no features listed in 27CFR Ruling 94-1 or 94-2 (except maybe the height BS). Now... I'm not betting my $$ that the ATF won't eventually declare the Saiga's with the features found on the USAS12 and the StreetSweeper/Striker12 as DDs...... they probably will when an accomodating administration gets in office. But before we talk about this topic again - do a search on CFR Title 27 Rulings 94-1 and 94-2 to get the complete picture. What are the unsporting features? They are: - PISTOL GRIPS - A BORE IN A STRAIGHT LINE TO THE STOCK (LIKE ASSAULT RIFLES) - FOLDING STOCKS DIMENSIONS THAT DIFFER FROM TYPICAL SPORTING SHOTGUNS (BASICALLY THE OVERALL HEIGHT OF THE SHOTGUN WITH A MAG OR DRUM) AND WIDTH WITH A DRUM - EXCESSIVE WEIGHT - EXCESSIVE MAGAZINE CAPACITIES - And yes... DRUMS Drums were but ONE of the reasons they reclassified the firearms... now you add the fact that some of us have bayonet lugs and flash suppressors and I guarantee you that sporting shotguns (per an ATF interpretation) CANNOT have such features. DRUMS- yeah they're a bad idea... but it won't matter in the long run. Per the comment... 'don't I want to delay as long as possible' - HELL NO. I want BUSH and the REPUBLICANS feet held to fire and see what happens - Will they get my vote next time? Not if they sell us out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gummerfan 0 Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 The BATFE doesn't need an "accomodating administration". They can ban/regulate anything with the stroke of a pen. It doesn't require passage of a new law. They couldn't find an "excuse" to regulate the Streetsweepers and Strikers. They weren't "automatics" or even semi-auto. The ATF just didn't like the looks of them, and decided that nobody "needs" one. So, they just declared them DDs. IF they do the same with the SAIGA, you'll have 3 choices. You can register it, you can sell it to a Class 3 dealer, or you can keep it and have a felony in your closet. I went through this with my Streetsweeper, I've had to deal with it with my 37mm launcher. I just got my Saiga, and now I can't find mags for it, and now there's the possibility that I may have to get rid of it anyway. (I seem to have rotten luck when it comes to some of my hobbies!) Gummerfan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
swiftvision 0 Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 I think any one buying a Saiga for "home defense" for the woman/kids because of it's ease of use needs to try out more firearms. For one, an unmodied Saiga is WAY too long. Two, it's the most complicated firearm I have ever found....I mean, try to just load the damn thing. Then add the recoil, and the etc.... For an experienced shooter a 12S wounln't be so bad if you had it locked and loaded. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Diggler 0 Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 I wrote about using a Saiga for HD because, in my situation, 1. I am cutting the barrel to 18.5" so it won't be too long. 2. A pistol will probably be the primary but will always be available, depending on the threat. A shotgun should be available though. 3. We all shoot AK pattern guns a lot so we're used to the platform 4. A full mag would be in the well, just rack the bolt to load 5. I shoot more than others in my family, and I've been known to short-shuck a pump gun from time to time in the field when adrenaline kicks in. Shorter-armed people with less experience would probably experience this more. I got a 12 because, yeah, it's mostly for me. The BIGGEST problem I have with the whole thing is taking away the ability of the rest of my family to use any of my guns at any given time on my own property, whether I'm there or not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Caspian 32 Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 you guys are too hung up on the Street Sweeper/Striker comparison. A more accurate comparison would be the USAS-12. Caspian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
swiftvision 0 Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 5 rounds are just too small for this firearm.... Hurry up and come out with something! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyJ 0 Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 That's being worked on, I think. Does anyone have a current source for even just the 5rd mags? CDNN is out and I am *not* ordering a gun until I can get a few more magazines. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 WE have been thru this mag shortage before. Last time Unkle Sam bought them all for the 12Ga. doorbuster M16 attachment. Probably the same thing again. Prices went down last time, will most likley do so again. G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GTwannabe 1 Posted December 28, 2004 Report Share Posted December 28, 2004 That's being worked on, I think. Does anyone have a current source for even just the 5rd mags? CDNN is out and I am *not* ordering a gun until I can get a few more magazines. If you want one, buy one now! EAA was bought by Remmington, and the Saiga guns are going to be sold under the Spartan brand. Remmington will probably up the price on these "new" guns. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tomac 0 Posted December 28, 2004 Report Share Posted December 28, 2004 That's being worked on, I think. Does anyone have a current source for even just the 5rd mags? CDNN is out and I am *not* ordering a gun until I can get a few more magazines. If you want one, buy one now! EAA was bought by Remmington, and the Saiga guns are going to be sold under the Spartan brand. Remmington will probably up the price on these "new" guns. I read that Remmy bought the Baikal(sp?) shotgun line, where did you hear they also bought the Saiga line??? Thx!... Tomac Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RDSWriter 5 Posted December 28, 2004 Report Share Posted December 28, 2004 The BATFE doesn't need an "accomodating administration". They can ban/regulate anything with the stroke of a pen. It doesn't require passage of a new law.They couldn't find an "excuse" to regulate the Streetsweepers and Strikers. They weren't "automatics" or even semi-auto. The ATF just didn't like the looks of them, and decided that nobody "needs" one. So, they just declared them DDs. IF they do the same with the SAIGA, you'll have 3 choices. You can register it, you can sell it to a Class 3 dealer, or you can keep it and have a felony in your closet. I went through this with my Streetsweeper, I've had to deal with it with my 37mm launcher. I just got my Saiga, and now I can't find mags for it, and now there's the possibility that I may have to get rid of it anyway. (I seem to have rotten luck when it comes to some of my hobbies!) Gummerfan I agree that the BATF doesn't legally need Presidential approval, but I doubt that they will do anything to 'irritate' the Commander in Chief... he controls their bosses - by his appointees (the Treasury Secretary and Attorney General)... believe me they can influence the policy of the ATF. How many Wacos and Ruby Ridges have you seen lately... it's not just coincidence that the BATF is not taking these same approaches anymore... it's bad politically for their bosses. Who announced via CNN the DD change in 1994? Lloyd Benson... a Clinton appointee. I doubt that the ATF will do any reclassification without the Treasury Secretary and/or DOJ in on the loop to administer 'their' interpretation of the law. Additionally, you state that they (the ATF) just did it (the reclassification). Actually, the USAS was attempted to be imported in the late '70s or early '80s and was deemed unsporting at that time. Therefore, production was set up in the US to avoid the inability to import the weapon. So, there was a ruling (prior to reclassification) that the USAS was 'unsporting' for importation purposes. Since the DD regulations mention nothing of importation versus domestic manufacture... the Clinton admin with Lloyd Benson added 1+1 to get 2. The USAS was declared unsporting while attempting to import it. Therefore it is unsporting (1). The bore diameter is greater than one half inch (2). Hence... it is a DD because (1) it was ruled as an unsporting firearm and (2) the bore is greater than one half inch. I personally do not know if this was the same case for the StreetSweeper, but I think the patent was of foreign origin... so the story may be the same. Once again, I'm not sure about that one. Regardless, I'd love to see Bush's reaction if the ATF and Treasury Secretary reclassifies the Saiga without him so much as knowing beforehand... IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN WITHOUT HIM KNOWING and at least tacitly agreeing to let it happen. Tacit approval he can deny... but the NRA and GOA won't be so kind and neither will I and a lot of other voters because we WILL hold the Republicans accountable if this happens. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyJ 0 Posted December 28, 2004 Report Share Posted December 28, 2004 EAA's website has an online store which sells 5rd mags for $25 each. Looks like I've got a source! Found a local company that's a Saiga dealer, gonna see about getting a quote from them before I order from CDNN. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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