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223 VS 762 help...


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#1 vladtepes

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 12:41 PM

I've read a lot and people tend to have a lot of different opinions.. i recently purchased a saiga in 223 but am now rethinking if i should have opted for 762.... i guess after reading a lot ive determined that there isnt really a better.. but maybe if you guys could offer up some input it would be really helpfull..

thanks..

#2 nalioth

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 01:20 PM

Buy one in 7.62x39.

Then you'll have both. :)
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#3 1911

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 01:20 PM

I have always used the .223 because that is what my rifles are chambered for and have never owned a COMBLOC weapon. I have found the .223 to be accurate and reliable. That said, I have recently added a couple of 7.62x39 to the collection because the cost of ammo is approximately half of what I pay for the .223. From my reading I find that the 7.62x39 is less accurate but since it's role is not as sniper rifle I am able to overlook that. That's more than I know, I hope it helps.
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#4 Kriegerwithin

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 01:23 PM

It depends on your individual taste.

If you want accuracy at long distances, go with the .223.

If you want stopping power, get the 7.62x39.

It's really your choice, you have to decide what situation your going to be in and what gun will do the job successfully.

#5 vladtepes

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 02:02 PM

i guess a good question is.. relative to the 223 how much MORE stopping power am i picking up with going 762.. idealy the gun is a fun build out range gun.. "unidealy" it is a close quarters weapon in a society where government has failed... dont get the wrong impression.. im not preaching some end of the world rambling.. but id like to have a good assortment of guns on the OFF chance that i find myself in a BAD situation (lets say something similar to katrina where the government could no longer protect its people)... i mean i have a shotgun... and am getting a savage 308... so the role of this rifle would be the gap between the shotgun and longer distance rifle...

thanks again for the input.. its really appreciated..

#6 nalioth

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 03:07 PM

"Stopping power" is a myth.

Just ask the cranked out suspect that got shot over 40 times by 3 policemen before he bled out.

"Shot placement" is not a myth. If you properly place your shots, a .22 rimfire will stop anyone.

The .223/5.56 Nato has been doing a fine job for 40+ years now.

If we're talking about hunting actual animals, the bigger the better.
"Tactical" is a mindset, not an equipment list.

#7 vladtepes

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 04:13 PM

"Stopping power" is a myth.

Just ask the cranked out suspect that got shot over 40 times by 3 policemen before he bled out.

"Shot placement" is not a myth. If you properly place your shots, a .22 rimfire will stop anyone.

The .223/5.56 Nato has been doing a fine job for 40+ years now.

If we're talking about hunting actual animals, the bigger the better.



i understand that.. but even with that said.. i would imagine that a 12ga slug has more stopping power than a 22... so i dont know that i agree you can completely discount "stopping power".. to say its totally mythical i think is not %100 accurate..

#8 ernestmayhand

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 04:19 PM

I like feeding my Russian Saiga with some Russian 7.62.
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#9 usmc_mwroseberry

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 04:47 PM

I have personal experience with both rounds in a house to house situation. Believe me you want the 7.62x39 over the 5.56 for personal defense. I did plenty of house clearing and have shot both rounds at close range. Even in Fallujah I never engaged anyone at over 150yards. At that range the 7.62 is more than accurate enough. The damage from the 7.62 on the body compared to the 5.56 is no comparison. We were outfitted with E-sappy plates (enhanced) because the 7.62 would blow straight through the standard sappy plates we are usually issued. With the 5.56 I have personally put well aimed shots (doc confirmed through the heart) and the target was still advancing. His advance was due to drugs however other than a head shot to the cortex of the brain there is no well aimed shot that will stop a target hopped up on drugs from advancing. After the incident stated I moved from doing two center mast one in the head to one center mast two head shots. If I would have had the 7.62 one or two in the chest and the target would have been on his back with his shoulder blade half way across the room or at least shattered.

My personal armory consists of the following :

Saiga (converted) 7.62x39
Taurus PT1911 (Hogue grips)
Remington 870

Will add only one other weapon:

Springfield Socom II (for ranged shots/tactical)

And I am more than confident with these firearms and my training that I will have no problem keeping myself and other safe.

Remember that a great weapon is worthless if you are not comfortable with it. Practice, practice and practice again. You should be able to manipulate that weapon without thinking.

Good luck,
Merritt
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#10 vladtepes

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 05:35 PM

I have personal experience with both rounds in a house to house situation. Believe me you want the 7.62x39 over the 5.56 for personal defense. I did plenty of house clearing and have shot both rounds at close range. Even in Fallujah I never engaged anyone at over 150yards. At that range the 7.62 is more than accurate enough. The damage from the 7.62 on the body compared to the 5.56 is no comparison. We were outfitted with E-sappy plates (enhanced) because the 7.62 would blow straight through the standard sappy plates we are usually issued. With the 5.56 I have personally put well aimed shots (doc confirmed through the heart) and the target was still advancing. His advance was due to drugs however other than a head shot to the cortex of the brain there is no well aimed shot that will stop a target hopped up on drugs from advancing. After the incident stated I moved from doing two center mast one in the head to one center mast two head shots. If I would have had the 7.62 one or two in the chest and the target would have been on his back with his shoulder blade half way across the room or at least shattered.

My personal armory consists of the following :

Saiga (converted) 7.62x39
Taurus PT1911 (Hogue grips)
Remington 870

Will add only one other weapon:

Springfield Socom II (for ranged shots/tactical)

And I am more than confident with these firearms and my training that I will have no problem keeping myself and other safe.

Remember that a great weapon is worthless if you are not comfortable with it. Practice, practice and practice again. You should be able to manipulate that weapon without thinking.

Good luck,
Merritt
SGT USMC vet.



thank you for the detailed response..

and thank you to all of you for the info..
this site is really appreciated as it has made this all much easier to understand..

#11 desert dog

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 06:56 PM

The .223 has an accuaracy edge over 7.62x39, no disputing that it makes a better target cartridge. .223 is also a great home defence round - especially the frangible ammo. Having stated that, I would definately go with the 7.62x39 for a SHTF gun. Recoil differences are neglegible, as I am not sissy enough to even notice.

1 MOA accuaracy vs 2 MOA accuary means NOTHING when your snapping off shots on the move at someone standing 25 yards away shooting at you (in a civilian SHTF situation thats what its going to be). You need to drop em fast, even from behind cover, and thats what the 7.62x39 does best. You wont be taking that 200 yard shot at someone standing in the middle of the street 4 blocks away - thats illegal and irresponsible. You will be returning fire at thugs hiding behind a wall or car, or dirtbags using drive-by tactics, or Shooting through your door, wall, or fence at some scumbags trying to get in your house.

I shoot on a homemade range on 400 acres. We dragged over some abandoned vehicles to shoot up. This is where I lost respect for the .223 as a SHTF or bug-out gun cartridge. When you try to shoot through the windshield at the driver's seat, the glass cracks and there is a little hole - but the seat is untouched. Do the same thing with 7.62x39 and the hole goes through the window, the driver's seat, the back seat, and out the trunk. Shoot through vehicle doors and you get the same results. Shoot at cinderblocks or wood posts; 7.62x39 penetrates and .223 does not.

A couple other good points about 7,62x39 as a SHTF round;
* ammo is cheaper than .223 - good because you need to stock up.
* 7.62x39 report is quieter than .223 - for those times when you dont have time to put on ear protection.

Sure, you can carry a little more .223 ammo because of the smaller size, but for a civilian trying to leave town or protecting his home, this means little.

#12 Vultite

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Posted 26 October 2008 - 12:39 AM

X39 will hit your target, .223 will hit your target, the difference in accuracy isn't enough to miss a target completely, you won't be doing any fancy shooting, but at least with X39 you'll have some stopping power with a .30 cal vs. a .22 I have never liked .223 for anything but fun fast shooting b/c of lack of recoil, but when it matters, larger is better as long as your a decent shot

<---- pic of me shooting a .223 all decked out, shooting fast for fun, not accuracy, could do the same with X39 but .223 is easier on the body after shooting off a couple thousand rounds in a sitting ;)

Edited by Vultite, 26 October 2008 - 12:41 AM.

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#13 jbremount

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Posted 26 October 2008 - 09:46 PM

I have a place outside of town where I keep a few horses and goats. I caught two coyotes stalking a baby goat. I shot the two coyotes from about 40- 50 yards with the .223 and they just spun around in circles biting at the areas where the bullets entered. Eventually they ran off as fast as they came. Now, I had a friend who was hunting hogs with a SKS and I took notice of the wounds/damage the FMJ 7.62 ammo did to the hogs. I bought a AK 7.62 x 39 rifle and when the coyotes came around looking for baby goats, I shot two and they dropped like a rock on the spot. Both were dead when I reached them. That sold me on the 7.62 x39 cartridge. I hardly ever take the .223 to the farm. The 7.62 x 39 is equivalent to the 30/30 in terms of power. The eastern bloc ammo has a bullet with an large air pocket in the nose of the bullet that causes the base to upset, tumble and go sideways causing more tissue damage. I would dare say, even the 6.8 is not a whole bunch better than the 7.62x39 ammo and quite a bit more expensive.

#14 jrmock

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 08:35 AM

I have personal experience with both rounds in a house to house situation. Believe me you want the 7.62x39 over the 5.56 for personal defense. I did plenty of house clearing and have shot both rounds at close range. Even in Fallujah I never engaged anyone at over 150yards. At that range the 7.62 is more than accurate enough. The damage from the 7.62 on the body compared to the 5.56 is no comparison. We were outfitted with E-sappy plates (enhanced) because the 7.62 would blow straight through the standard sappy plates we are usually issued. With the 5.56 I have personally put well aimed shots (doc confirmed through the heart) and the target was still advancing. His advance was due to drugs however other than a head shot to the cortex of the brain there is no well aimed shot that will stop a target hopped up on drugs from advancing. After the incident stated I moved from doing two center mast one in the head to one center mast two head shots. If I would have had the 7.62 one or two in the chest and the target would have been on his back with his shoulder blade half way across the room or at least shattered.

My personal armory consists of the following :

Saiga (converted) 7.62x39
Taurus PT1911 (Hogue grips)
Remington 870

Will add only one other weapon:

Springfield Socom II (for ranged shots/tactical)

And I am more than confident with these firearms and my training that I will have no problem keeping myself and other safe.

Remember that a great weapon is worthless if you are not comfortable with it. Practice, practice and practice again. You should be able to manipulate that weapon without thinking.

Good luck,
Merritt
SGT USMC vet.


Small world, I have the same pistol and rifle as you (with Hogue grips on my PT1911). I also installed AR hogue grips on my x39 for symmetry. No shotgun though.

I used both of those plus my buddies 870 in a 3 gun match last weekend. Worked great.

#15 lonerider

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 05:21 PM

I have personal experience with both rounds in a house to house situation. Believe me you want the 7.62x39 over the 5.56 for personal defense. I did plenty of house clearing and have shot both rounds at close range. Even in Fallujah I never engaged anyone at over 150yards. At that range the 7.62 is more than accurate enough. The damage from the 7.62 on the body compared to the 5.56 is no comparison. We were outfitted with E-sappy plates (enhanced) because the 7.62 would blow straight through the standard sappy plates we are usually issued. With the 5.56 I have personally put well aimed shots (doc confirmed through the heart) and the target was still advancing. His advance was due to drugs however other than a head shot to the cortex of the brain there is no well aimed shot that will stop a target hopped up on drugs from advancing. After the incident stated I moved from doing two center mast one in the head to one center mast two head shots. If I would have had the 7.62 one or two in the chest and the target would have been on his back with his shoulder blade half way across the room or at least shattered.

My personal armory consists of the following :

Saiga (converted) 7.62x39
Taurus PT1911 (Hogue grips)
Remington 870

Will add only one other weapon:

Springfield Socom II (for ranged shots/tactical)

And I am more than confident with these firearms and my training that I will have no problem keeping myself and other safe.

Remember that a great weapon is worthless if you are not comfortable with it. Practice, practice and practice again. You should be able to manipulate that weapon without thinking.

Good luck,
Merritt
SGT USMC vet.

I'll second this opinion! I have put 2-3 rounds of .223 into hopped up NVA and they still were coming forward :cryss: ! That's when I procured a Model 1917 BAR...now that's stopping power :killer:
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#16 Paladin_Hammer

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 08:12 PM

"Stopping power" is a myth.

Just ask the cranked out suspect that got shot over 40 times by 3 policemen before he bled out.

"Shot placement" is not a myth. If you properly place your shots, a .22 rimfire will stop anyone.

The .223/5.56 Nato has been doing a fine job for 40+ years now.

If we're talking about hunting actual animals, the bigger the better.


Hate to say it Nail, but we've got a Marine and a Veitnam Veteran who say the 5.56 (.233) isn't all that great. If you can get a headshot on the fly, maybe, but according to them and a bunch of Vets at the VFW post in Kearney, MO, the 5.56 doesn't have the energy attached to it to kill on the fly. According to the vets, it seems that "Stopping Power" isn't a myth.

#17 vladtepes

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 08:40 PM

"Stopping power" is a myth.

Just ask the cranked out suspect that got shot over 40 times by 3 policemen before he bled out.

"Shot placement" is not a myth. If you properly place your shots, a .22 rimfire will stop anyone.

The .223/5.56 Nato has been doing a fine job for 40+ years now.

If we're talking about hunting actual animals, the bigger the better.


Hate to say it Nail, but we've got a Marine and a Veitnam Veteran who say the 5.56 (.233) isn't all that great. If you can get a headshot on the fly, maybe, but according to them and a bunch of Vets at the VFW post in Kearney, MO, the 5.56 doesn't have the energy attached to it to kill on the fly. According to the vets, it seems that "Stopping Power" isn't a myth.



im very new to this.. but i can't see any logic in dismissing the thought that a heavier round (like the 7.62) will do more physical damage on impact... and sure you can come up with a story to support everything.. im sure people die from a .22 round... but across the board people who have actively shot people are saying they question the stopping power of the .223 that makes me happy i made the choice i did...

#18 kg4chm

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 02:39 AM

I go along with the x39 having more stopping power also. You do not always have the opportunity in a combat (or self defense) situation to get a clean head shot. Plenty of soldiers in combat have complained about the 5.56 not having stopping power or being able to penetrate obstacles like brush, walls or into vehicles to take out bad guys. This has been an ongoing complaint since Vietnam when the M-16 went into use. Thus the reason the US govt is looking to upgrade to a weapon that fires a better round. The 7.62x51 (.308) is becoming quite poplar again especially with SpecOps guys.
Plenty of people have died from a wound from a .22. Any animal in the world can be killed with a .22 with proper shot placement but I wouldnt want to go bear hunting with a damn 10/22. I wouldnt want to depend on the 5.56/.223's feeble kinetic energy to defend myself from an enemy either.

#19 Kevin C

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 12:12 PM

I have personal experience with both rounds in a house to house situation. Believe me you want the 7.62x39 over the 5.56 for personal defense. I did plenty of house clearing and have shot both rounds at close range. Even in Fallujah I never engaged anyone at over 150yards. At that range the 7.62 is more than accurate enough. The damage from the 7.62 on the body compared to the 5.56 is no comparison. We were outfitted with E-sappy plates (enhanced) because the 7.62 would blow straight through the standard sappy plates we are usually issued. With the 5.56 I have personally put well aimed shots (doc confirmed through the heart) and the target was still advancing. His advance was due to drugs however other than a head shot to the cortex of the brain there is no well aimed shot that will stop a target hopped up on drugs from advancing. After the incident stated I moved from doing two center mast one in the head to one center mast two head shots. If I would have had the 7.62 one or two in the chest and the target would have been on his back with his shoulder blade half way across the room or at least shattered.

My personal armory consists of the following :

Saiga (converted) 7.62x39
Taurus PT1911 (Hogue grips)
Remington 870

Will add only one other weapon:

Springfield Socom II (for ranged shots/tactical)

And I am more than confident with these firearms and my training that I will have no problem keeping myself and other safe.

Remember that a great weapon is worthless if you are not comfortable with it. Practice, practice and practice again. You should be able to manipulate that weapon without thinking.

Good luck,
Merritt
SGT USMC vet.



Hello

Listen to Gunny!
His reply should have put an end to this discussion.

Merritt Thank you for your service to our country!

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#20 fffpatriot

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 03:06 PM

I was a "maw-duece" .50 cal gunner in Somalia. Semper Fi, bro's. Talk about making some big holes in some bad guys!

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#21 JCS05Rubi

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 05:34 AM

First of all, thank you to all the military guys that posted in that thread.

I went for 7.62. If I wanted a .223 I would have probably bought an AR15. A 7.62 will make decent groupings on a paper target. Decent enough to have fun with, or hit a torso if necessary. It is hard to argue a .308 bullet or a .22.

With that said, if you already own a .223, just buy another 7.62 and trade the .223 for a .308 down the road :smoke:

The recoil on a 7.62 is negligable. I have a 30-30 that I can only shoot 5-6 rounds from a bench of 12 standing before I have a bruise on my shoulder. I put 400 rounds downrange in my 7.62 with no issues... AFTER I bruised my shoulder on the 30-30. 7.62 has enough recoil to keep you entertained, but not enough to hurt you or anything.

#22 superA

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 07:49 AM

Plus it's a semi auto making recoil even slighter.

#23 Fluid Power

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 10:39 AM

I bought both. I liked the 7.62X39 but was worried about surplus ammo. I buought a 16" .223 and man am I happy about how well it shoots! Better than any Mini 14 I've owed and par with the two Colt AR15's I've owned. So I got the 20" with the thought to make a Saiganov. Just do it! You have nothing to lose! :devil:

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