saiga aow???

[kingnitro 0]

Greetings everybody, been lurkin for awhile and have a question. I live in a no sbs state and really want a short barrel saiga, thats the only thing keeping me from getting one [ long ass barrel ] Could I get a stripped reciever like the Origin or some other AK reciever and register it as an AOW and build on that? Obviously with no buttstock. Any Ideas? thanks alot guys. great forum!! P.S IM getting an s12 before the new year one way or the other!!!!

[nalioth 405]

If you're talking about the receiver from Alliance Armement, it's a crap shoot. Please see the Wall of Shame for further info.

 

As far as using an AK receiver, none exist that will work with the Saiga-12.

[rjhauser 0]

good luck in your task

Edited November 16, 2008 by rjhauser

[BobAsh 582]

Theoretically it's possible, but as Nalioth said there is no receiver available that will work.

[Alpha Kilo 42]

Where's the problem? I'm looking at a bare AK receiver and the complete Saiga (put together) and while they're defintely not identical, they look close enough to be made to work. I'm by no means about to try to do it to prove anyone wrong, or ultimately fun into the same problem that dictates it CAN'T be done. But I'm curious as to why not.

 

I can see that the magwell is a little further back, but so what? there's a big gap between the TG and MW anyway. Where's the dealbreaking roadblock lay?

 

For the record, I don't doubt you guys saying there is one, I'm just curious as to what/where it is. These things are pretty simple, I was wondering if it's something that could be overcome. But I'm assuming if it could Tromix would have some available already.

 

So what is it?

[Franky 2]

So, what kit are you going to use on the receiver. As far as I know there are no S12 kits available.

[rjhauser 0]

since you seem to doubt the word of one of the innovators in saiga modifications, whom I am sure would tell you if it was possible, please try it yourself and report back.

[kingnitro 0]

My idea was to just use an s12 with modified [registered] reciever ,cut the barrel and not install a buttstock of any kind. I know it can be done ,but im not sure im dedicated enough to do it[ or financially able]!!! Anythings possible with a sawzall and a welder, right? What hoops do u have to jump through to register a reciever as aow?? paperwork? sign off? $200? am i missing any thing? I really appreciate all of ur opinions.

[rjhauser 0]

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIF2.html

[nalioth 405]

My idea was to just use an s12 with modified [registered] reciever ,cut the barrel and not install a buttstock of any kind. I know it can be done ,but im not sure im dedicated enough to do it[ or financially able]!!! Anythings possible with a sawzall and a welder, right? What hoops do u have to jump through to register a reciever as aow?? paperwork? sign off? $200? am i missing any thing? I really appreciate all of ur opinions.

Just register it as a SBS and do what you want with it.

 

If you're gonna do your own work, it's gonna cost you $200 for the tax either way.

[kingnitro 0]

My idea was to just use an s12 with modified [registered] reciever ,cut the barrel and not install a buttstock of any kind. I know it can be done ,but im not sure im dedicated enough to do it[ or financially able]!!! Anythings possible with a sawzall and a welder, right? What hoops do u have to jump through to register a reciever as aow?? paperwork? sign off? $200? am i missing any thing? I really appreciate all of ur opinions.

Just register it as a SBS and do what you want with it.

 

If you're gonna do your own work, it's gonna cost you $200 for the tax either way.

Thats the problem THE GREAT OBAMA SUPPORTING STATE OF INDIANA allows no SBS!!!

[Gunfixr 76]

Since there are no known S12 kits available, you're going to have to buy a complete S12, some blank receiver, tear apart the S12, and reassemble the S12 onto the blank receiver (provided it will even work) minus the stock, registered as an AOW.

 

It sounds like an enormous amount of work and expense to have an AOW S12.

[Tactical_T 6]

I thought an AOW shotgun could only be build from a shotgun that was "originally" built as a pistol grip shotgun.

 

For instance, the Mossberg Serbu Super Shorty I have was buit from a pistol grip Mossberg 500, therefore the modified piece becomes an AOW.

 

http://www.impactguns.com/store/SER-SS12.html

 

If one were to purchase a Saiga 12 (which is originally built with a stock) and rebuild it as a pistol-grip shotgun, then it would seem that it would still have to be registered as a $200 SBS, as it would not qualify as an AOW even if built with no stock or stock trunion.

 

I could be wrong on this, as I'm no expert on NFA.....I just don't wanna see another gun owner make a costly mistake. Maybe you should call NFA and ask: 304-616-4500

Edited November 17, 2008 by Tactical_T

[Gunfixr 76]

It does. That's why he's talking about getting a receiver and a kit. Problem is, you can't get a kit.

[Alpha Kilo 42]

I think your right, my understanding is an AOW can't be made of something that ever had a stock on it.

 

rj, what's your problem with someone trying to have a better understanding about the details and in's and out's on things? Some people actually like to get into things a little deeper. Then again there's people that don't have any idea how a car works, they're just happy owning and driving one. Don't be so quick to scoff at someone else.

 

I thought I made it pretty clear I was looking for information, not an arguement.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Alpha Kilo

[rjhauser 0]

my problem is simple, you asked "what reciever will work".

 

You were told twice, not once, that none exist.

 

on top of this, one happens to be with Tromix, who DEFINITELY would know. that should end the discussion, where do I get the parts....

 

therefore, you should not keep hounding , the well, I can sawsall and dremel and grind....

 

and start looking at "what are my alternatives"....and ask that way.

[kingnitro 0]

I thought an AOW shotgun could only be build from a shotgun that was "originally" built as a pistol grip shotgun.

 

For instance, the Mossberg Serbu Super Shorty I have was buit from a pistol grip Mossberg 500, therefore the modified piece becomes an AOW.

 

http://www.impactguns.com/store/SER-SS12.html

 

If one were to purchase a Saiga 12 (which is originally built with a stock) and rebuild it as a pistol-grip shotgun, then it would seem that it would still have to be registered as a $200 SBS, as it would not qualify as an AOW even if built with no stock or stock trunion.

 

I could be wrong on this, as I'm no expert on NFA.....I just don't wanna see another gun owner make a costly mistake. Maybe you should call NFA and ask: 304-616-4500

If I understand correctly u would be building on the bare receiver which has never had a buttstock on it. The receiver is the gun not the rest of it. So a bare receiver registered as an aow would be legal. Correct me if im wrong on this. As I only half ass know wat im talkin about at most times.

[VanKiller 322]

I've faxed in the paperwork for a couple AOWs on the saiga platform last week...............let's see what comes back approved....... .

[madmax4x4 68]

The "RECIVER" on a saiga 12 is the thing with the serial number on it. Not the part of an AK receiver that you can bend from a flat. If you had a classII sot manufacture machine that part out and register it as A.O.W. Then you would use your s-12 as a parts kit but the piece with the serial number from the original saiga you would keep and would be considered a firearm. It is what is considered a trunion on of weapon but it is not counted as such by the ATF on a saiga 12. That is also why the 922 parts count is less only 14 with threaded barrel .

 

Trunion

http://www.ak-47.us/AK47_Parts.php#akftt

 

The AA reciver is not for a Saiga 12 it is for a gun that has not been made yet

Edited November 17, 2008 by madmax4x4

[kingnitro 0]

Thats just great my very first post here, and its already turning ugly. And the sad part is that people dont even know who they r arguing with. I just wanted to start a conversation about an Idea and get some helpful responses.Yes it may just be a pipe dream but cant we just sit down and discuss firearms without pointing fingers and bad mouthing people. I suggest u read the whole post and pay attention to who said what b4 u start accusing people. My apoligies and thank you to everyone for the insight.

[Alpha Kilo 42]

Excellent post madmax, thanks for the info. I never saw any of the demilled AK kits before they got chopped up, but it seems as if all the stamped AK's were that way with the sheetmetal not having numbers on the sheetmetal but the trunion does.

 

If I'm understanding this correctly since in this country the S/N part is the receiver, the S12 trunion is the receiver and since you can't make an AOW out of a shotgun receiver, there's the problem right? not so much a physical/mechanical problem but a red-tape problem.

[madmax4x4 68]

[kingnitro 0]

Thanks madmax I didnt realize the S/N wasnt on the sheetmetal part of the receiver. I dont have one to actually look at yet. The DD sounds like more than id want to get into. I guess I will just have to learn to love the 19 inch[ or watever they are] barrell. Thanks again.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Kingnitro

[RDSWriter 5]

First, the serial numbered part - by itself - is not considered the receiver if the BATF Tech Branch interprets the structure of the Saiga 12 the same as it has for AKs in its prior letters/rulings. Technically, when the 'trunion' contains the only serial number and it is 'permanently' riveted to the sheetmetal portion of the 'receiver' it becomes part of the permanent receiver. Both parts - combined - make up the receiver if the trunion has the only serial number.

 

With AKs, the ATF will not allow you to replace a trunion (even though they classify serial numbered trunions as TRUNIONS) if it contains the one and only serial number BECAUSE it is defacto a permanent part of the receiver because the receiver must contain the serial number. It is a federal crime to intentionally obliterate, obscure, deface or remove the original serial number. That is why you cannot replace the trunion (because you would be removing the ORIGINAL serial number) from the receiver. Additionally, the ATF considers bent, machined portions of the AK receiver to be receivers. BUT since the two parts are manufactured and permanently assembled prior to leaving the manufacturer... they consider the two combined the receiver with the trunion containing the serial number of the receiver. That is also why you can't buy a bent sheetmetal receivers with all the holes/openings machined without it having a serial number because - by itself - it qualifies a a receiver and, as such, must contain the serial number.

 

Now, if you want to demil the Saiga 12, I suspect that the demil process would be the same as a typical AK in that you can leave the trunion intact while torching the receiver in the specified locations. BUT... since the ATF has not classified the Saiga 12 'trunion' an actual trunion (at least per their letter to Wesley Drennan at Soupbowl Enterprises dated Nov 17, 1997), they might require a different method or locations to legally demil via torching.

 

In short, if you are 100% gung-ho on destroying a S12 and manufacturing a S12 virgin sheetmetal channel, you need to write the Tech Branch ask:

 

What is the appropriate method/cutting location to legally destroy a Saiga 12 receiver and have the remaining parts unrestricted for sale?

 

Don't be too surprised if the ATF requires a different method than an AK rifles, and requires you to torch cut from the magwell to the the barrel through the trunion - which would effectively destroy the part you need to 'easily' make an AOW.

 

Peace out.

Edited November 18, 2008 by RDSWriter

[6500rpm 670]

madmax hit on something that I'm not sure about, but may be a loop hole. There's a class 3 ffl/sot on the AK files that I know of that has stated the he can "re-machine" forign parts and stamp them to be U.S. manufactured legally due to his ffl/sot status. Could this be applied to the receiver? Sounds like VanKiller might be the acid test. On the other side, unless your a monster, a short barrel S12 with no stock doesnt sound like much fun and runs a high likelyhood of having fte/ftf issues in my mind.

[nalioth 405]

madmax hit on something that I'm not sure about, but may be a loop hole. There's a class 3 ffl/sot on the AK files that I know of that has stated the he can "re-machine" forign parts and stamp them to be U.S. manufactured legally due to his ffl/sot status. Could this be applied to the receiver? Sounds like VanKiller might be the acid test. On the other side, unless your a monster, a short barrel S12 with no stock doesnt sound like much fun and runs a high likelyhood of having fte/ftf issues in my mind.

He is full of it.

 

The receiver can't be 'remanufactured' and neither can a Cl3/sot7 'buff and polish' a Romy trigger and stamp it "US" and call it "US made".

[BobAsh 582]

The receiver can't be 'remanufactured' and neither can a Cl3/sot7 'buff and polish' a Romy trigger and stamp it "US" and call it "US made".

 

LOL hell no you can't. Tony's got a 55 gal drum of Saiga FCG's that he could've used if that were possible.

[bigcraig 0]

<----Fellow Hoosier and NFA owner.

 

If it was possible to own a SBS/AOW Tromix built Saiga12, I would already have it.

 

Buy a Serbu Super Shorty, like I did, to appease your stubby shotgun obssesion.

 

[BobAsh 582]

I'm not saying it isn't POSSIBLE, but I think if a guy was able to do it, he wouldn't be asking about how to do it in a thread.

 

Also there's a legal grey area concerning the receiver.

[madmax4x4 68]

madmax hit on something that I'm not sure about, but may be a loop hole. There's a class 3 ffl/sot on the AK files that I know of that has stated the he can "re-machine" forign parts and stamp them to be U.S. manufactured legally due to his ffl/sot status. Could this be applied to the receiver? Sounds like VanKiller might be the acid test. On the other side, unless your a monster, a short barrel S12 with no stock doesnt sound like much fun and runs a high likelyhood of having fte/ftf issues in my mind.

If you mean mill off the serial number and manufacture a new gun with that part:shocked:

We need a in prison smile face

Or maybe this could be the in prison face