scottryan 0 Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 I would like to know every variation of a Saiga-12 since they have been imported and the dates and serial numbers that correspond with these variations. Manufacturing variations to the receiver, barrel, gas system, trunnions, trigger/hammer group, etc I would like to know. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ernestmayhand 10 Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 That's a pretty tall order. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 That's a pretty tall order. For sure. But if there's anybody around who would know, this would be the place to ask. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Like Carfax for guns........... Manufacture dates, serial numbers. That would be cool..... NOT!... that would be the first steps to a national firearms registry.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
numbnuts 1 Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 I'm a newbie, And not for nothing,but why would someone want that type of info???? Please don't be offended.....Numbnuts Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hallboss 1 Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 This is kind of a strange post for a 1st post........or am I being paranoid with all of this end of days talk? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrance@iacwds.com 716 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 I would like to know every variation of a Saiga-12 since they have been imported and the dates and serial numbers that correspond with these variations. Manufacturing variations to the receiver, barrel, gas system, trunnions, trigger/hammer group, etc I would like to know. I would like to know why you would like to know. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Superhawk138 202 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sicktooth 8 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 uuummm...what? serial numbers? are you serious? whats going on here? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Superhawk138 202 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 (edited) I think we have more questions to ask you, So please elaborate on why you want those specific details. Serial numbers are personal property. Edited November 20, 2008 by Superhawk138 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 (edited) Try Sr. at Alliance Armament LLC, they're pretty much the authority on the s12 line of shotguns. http://www.alliancearmament.com/ Edit- after finding out some information about you and your true intensions I feel like a bit of a jackass for the above post......but it was funny at the time I'm not sure if it's been posted, but the manufacture prints a catalog that's occasionally available on Ebay/Gunbroker with a fair amount of information concerning models not currently available in the U.S. Edited November 25, 2008 by 6500rpm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Franky 2 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 Would you like fries w/that order? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ginkgo-z 0 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 Dude...I thought he was calling Juggs numbnuts at first....then I saw his username Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Franky 2 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 numbnuts? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ThirtyCal 0 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 That's a great first post Scottyran. You sound like a LEO. -Thirtycal Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 Wow, i saw this when it first came up and was creeped out, glad i'm not the only one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hallboss 1 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 Notice there hasn't been anymore posts by this guy? Hmmmmmmmmm............. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 He doesn't want YOUR serial numbers. He wants to be able to identify all the Saiga's and their variations. I don't think there's anything weird about it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigcraig 0 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 scottryan is a well known "collector", he posts quite a bit on ARFCOM. From what I gather he has VERY good collection of Colts AR type guns. That being said, he more than likely just wants the info for academic purposes. (I am making the assumption that this is the same scottryan from arfcom.) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hartzpad 0 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 Talk about panties in a bunch. He doesn't want YOUR serial numbers, he wants to know serial number ranges for each variation in the Siaga 12. Just substitute X's for the last few numbers of the serial. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 (edited) Definitely a good question, or "tall order" if you will... I've often wanted to get a list like that together myself for all the Saigas. They have changed a lot over the years and been through some upgrades and downgrades IMO. It's a good research project. We started making a list like that for the S-20 a couple of years or so ago. Some of the variations and changes to the S-12 I've noticed are: Barrel Length: 24" threaded and non threaded, 22" non threaded with fixed full choke, 19" threaded and non threaded Furniture Color: I've got three types which were imported to the US - Factory Camo in the 'Woodland' pattern with matching 5rd mag(they also have a different pattern that's more grey and black), I have another set of furniture that's a 'Faux Wood Grain' pattern, then standard Black of course, including the Russian Tactical forearm and regular sporter type with the checkered grip. Then you have the hardwood furniture. I've never seen it imported on the S-12 but I do have a set I fitted to one from off a .308 (gives the stock weapon a vastly improved heft and balance). Furniture Type: All of the imported S-12s I've seen come with the standard polymer 'sporter' stock with the checkered wrist (in the colors mentioned above). The only exception is the very limited import S 12-C, which was only imported for LEO use, and then not at all. The 12-C comes with a Russian Polymer Folder. The rifles have started coming in with an optional SVD style 'thumbhole' stock and now even a wooden thumbhole with the FCG in the correct location. In Russia however, the S-12 is available (or has been) with a Pistol Grip, a Polymer Folder, a Steel Triangular Folder, and two quick detachable stocks. One is actually a detachable Pistol Grip that resembles a large caliber handgun grip, the other looks just like the Hardwood Hunting Stock on the .308, but it just snaps into the back of the receiver. They also have vented and non vented polymer and wood forearms. The real Russian vented forearms are vented in the checkered grip area. (I'm going to start offering this style for sale soon in my store.) Also in Russia, those lucky shooters can get the S-12 and all other Saigas with standard AK two piece HGs. I wish they would import some of that cool stuff! The BHO has changed several times over the years. I have at least three of those manual variations, as well as my own Automatic LRBHO. The Russian Police and Military guns, and the new Molot VEPR-12s have their own Auto LRBHO. Sights: Old style Adjustable Rib and Pistol type sights(fixed blade and threaded front bead) The newer 'pistol sights' have the front bead staked in place to keep it from backing out and getting lost. That's both an improvement and a downfall IMO because they took away the only threaded attachment point on top, which some of us entrepreneurs have been using for attaching rails and other accessories... You can also order the Russian Elevated AK style front sights and a rear blade with narrower notch. The Russian guns that are not sporterized (like the EXP 01-30 and SWAT guns) come with standard AK rear sights (with removable gas tube) and elevated front sight. Some of us have fashioned our own clones of those. Chokes and Muzzle Attachments: The older guns used to come into country with an Open or Improved Cylinder choke attached (0,0), and there were two other chokes you could get to go with it....Full (1,0) and Modified Cyl or 'medium choke' (0,5). Now for some reason, now they are only imported with a 'thread protector', or muzzle nut attached to the thread barrels. You can also get the factory Flash Hiders in two styles, and they have threaded barrel extensions or 'elongators' as they call them, and 'Paradox' rifled chokes. The one I have has 3.25" of rifling in it. Trigger guards: The sporter guns all have the standard sporter TG but the 12-C came with a regular AK style TG. The only difference was it only has two rivets attaching the front instead of four, and the mag catch is separate from the TG. All the other Saigas besides the S-12, have a regular AK TG and selector stop, including the other shotguns. Gas ports: The S-12 has been imported with different setups for the gas ports. The 19" guns mostly have a four port system in a diamond pattern. I've seen exceptions but they were probably mistakes. Some of them have different patterns also. With a 19" barrel you need four ports for reliable cycling of low brass. The 22" barrels come with both four and three port systems. They really only need three. Same goes for the 24" barrels. In the past few years there have been a lot of S-12s imported that had the gas ports partially hidden, because they screwed up at the factory and canted the gas block or otherwise failed to line up the hole in the bottom correctly. Mags: They are only imported with 5 rd mags now but the LEOs used to get them with factory 8 rd mags. ETA>> Forgot about the factory 2 rd mags. Those are rare as hen's teeth but can be found if you keep your eyes open. I've got a couple. Then of course there are the AGP 10 rd stick mags, MD-Arms 20rd Drums, soon to be produced is a 10 rd Drum from Chaos, hopefully followed by others..., there's another thing that's supposed to be a 12 ga 20 rd drum but not even worth mentioning...like the pizza pan 30rd drum from the same MFG..., coming soon will be a 12 rd stick from Surefire, and I believe, another 10 rd stick from Promag. And there's talk of a doublestack mag but I'll believe that when I see it...no...change that.......when I actually hold it in my hands... That's about all I can think of right now...sorry but I didn't have time yesterday. I may be able to help with some serial numbers if you PM me. Edited November 20, 2008 by Cobra 76 two Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bayonet lug 1 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 yeah like this: saiga 12c #1xxxx -- 2xxxxx and so on. Bit of an odd thing to ask. But for the noob seeing soo many kinds of saigas can be a little overwelming(hope i spelled that right). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scottryan 0 Posted November 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 I want to know this so I can find a base gun to build a conversion off of it. I want to know where I might hit a snag. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 Nice work, Cobra. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scottryan 0 Posted November 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 (edited) This is what I want to do. I want to take a Saiga and convert it back to an original Izhmash military version via registering it as an SBS. I will be using as many original Izhmash parts as possible. I need to know how I can get a front sight base on the barrel, the barrel shortened to the factory 430mm length or a replacement barrel pressed in, flash hider, etc... Stock trunnion mods for a folder? Rear AK style sight to replace the blade style sight? I'm not interested in "the easy way" to do this. I'm not going for the look. I'm not interested in aftermarket mods or enhancements. I know this will be expensive and take alot of time. I've been doing this kind of stuff for a long time. Edited November 20, 2008 by scottryan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrance@iacwds.com 716 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 I would like to know every variation of a Saiga-12 since they have been imported and the dates and serial numbers that correspond with these variations. Manufacturing variations to the receiver, barrel, gas system, trunnions, trigger/hammer group, etc I would like to know. I would like to know why you would like to know. Now I know. Thank you Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 Rusmilitary is one source for original Saiga parts http://www.rusmilitary.com/html/c-deact_accessories.htm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ThirtyCal 0 Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 (edited) This is what I want to do. I want to take a Saiga and convert it back to an original Izhmash military version via registering it as an SBS. I will be using as many original Izhmash parts as possible. I need to know how I can get a front sight base on the barrel, the barrel shortened to the factory 430mm length or a replacement barrel pressed in, flash hider, etc... Stock trunnion mods for a folder? Rear AK style sight to replace the blade style sight? I'm not interested in "the easy way" to do this. I'm not going for the look. I'm not interested in aftermarket mods or enhancements. I know this will be expensive and take alot of time. I've been doing this kind of stuff for a long time. Ok, that's a better third post. Now we know what you're trying to do. So is this what you have in mind? That's a fairly rare tactical front handguard that just came up yesterday and sold for $125. Very hard to find. That's also a real Izhmash 5.5mm AK-100 triangle folding stock and trunnion. More rare than the solid 5.5mm polymer, which has been sold out for quite a while now. Plan on $350 for the solid polymer stock and trunnion (including the real Russian rivets). Triangle would be a little more (although Rusmilitary shows them in stock right now). That doesn't include the front retainer latch assembly which I just paid $90 for and it took a long time to find someone willing to sell it. The Izhmash tactical grip, probably not as rare - just saw one sell yesterday for $75. And that SVD cheek rest is uber rare too, but they do come up from time to time for $100. The AK-74 buttpad is pretty common, say $30. So, just for the stock/trunnion, cheekrest, buttpad, pistol grip, and handguard, you're talking about $780 if you somehow were lucky enough to catch them when they randomly come up for sale. The Saiga front site, Saiga 8 rnd magazine, a Dinzag rear sight block (copy), Saiga gas tube, and Izhmash AK-100 sight leaf is probably another $700 I don't know about that particular flash supressor, but a real Siaga 10 hole birdcase would be about $130, but like everything else, it's very hard to find. So just for parts alone, assuming todays prices (which will continue to increase), it would cost somewhere in the $1600 range if you can find the parts. It's possible that Rusmilitary or Tantal will get these parts in stock again at some point in the future, but I doubt they'll be as cheap as they once were. I just built a very carefully crafted AK-103 replica with as many correct Izhmash parts as possible. It took 3 months for me to hand-build the tooling to do the conversion, another year to do the research and collect the parts, and about 5 months to build it. I'm now ready to move on to the Saiga 12-C (in the picture). Compared to the AK-103, finding these Saiga 12-C parts has been much harder. BTW, here's a build thread for the AK-103, which will show the work involved for the rear trunnion. -Thirtycal Edited November 21, 2008 by ThirtyCal Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Franky 2 Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 pretty impressive thirtycal Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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