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Tromix Fakes !/?


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#1 Juggernaut

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 04:56 PM

From the Tromix web site....

So, you see a Tromix Saiga-12 for sale and the buyer is asking a premium price. How do you know if it's a real Tromix gun, or simply a fake, cobbled up on someone's kitchen table? Here's a few tips to help you identify a fake from the real thing.


How to identify a real Tromix Saiga-12.


1. Your gun must have a Tromix HK style trigger guard Tig welded in place.

2. The pistol grip does not use a square hole cut in the receiver to hang it in the conventional AK style. There is a threaded rod welded to the receiver to hang the grip. There were a handful of guns, maybe 5 or so, with the square hole, but then the square nut would have been welded in place (externally) in order to make grip installation easier.

3. No Tromix guns were ever produced with an external safety stop like the factory unit. Very early guns, just had a dimple detent. Later guns had a welded in nipple on the side of the receiver to stop the safety selector.

4. All guns have a welded in back plate which has threaded inserts to bolt stock in place. No guns were made using the ACE adapter block to affix the stock.

5. If the gun is equipped with HK sights, you can remove the rear sight and look at the welds inside. The rear mount is affixed via Tig welding front and back on the inside. If it looks like a Mig weld or the welds are in a different location, it is not a Tromix installed sight base and most likely not a Tromix gun.


Tony Rumore
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#2 Banshee

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 05:18 PM

From the Tromix web site....

So, you see a Tromix Saiga-12 for sale and the buyer is asking a premium price. How do you know if it's a real Tromix gun, or simply a fake, cobbled up on someone's kitchen table? Here's a few tips to help you identify a fake from the real thing.


How to identify a real Tromix Saiga-12.




2. The pistol grip does not use a square hole cut in the receiver to hang it in the conventional AK style. There is a threaded rod welded to the receiver to hang the grip. There were a handful of guns, maybe 5 or so, with the square hole, but then the square nut would have been welded in place (externally) in order to make grip installation easier.

gun.


Tony Rumore
Tromix Corp



HEY!!! I must have a rare one.. My SBS has a square hole with and a square nut NOT welded in place.

Edited by Banshee, 26 November 2008 - 05:42 PM.

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#3 GySgt New River

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 11:59 PM

This was posted...just wondering what those at Tromix can say about it?

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#4 Jeaux E

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 12:11 AM

"*****This is a Class Three Weapon*********** I have a Saiga 12ga that I was told was converted by Tromix. It has no tromix marking that I can see. This is a Class three weapon that is on form 4 here in TX. It has a 13" barrel."

13" SBS.........a Class 3 weapon, and no Tromix marking...........(Key words above in blue........)

Without even a picture to see to verify.........NOT A TROMIX SBS.
(Whoever did do it shirley put their name on it, right???)

Edited by Jeaux E, 28 November 2008 - 12:46 AM.

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#5 BobAsh

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 07:47 AM

13" SBS must be marked by the "manufacturer" as Jeaux says. From the NFA:

"7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on
the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they
must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms
manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch.
The additional information includes:
(1) The model, if such designation has been made;
(2) The caliber or gauge;
(3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and
(4) The city andState (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place
of business.

http://www.atf.gov/f...ok/chapter7.pdf

There are NO Tromix SBS that don't have the "Tromix Broken Arrow OK" markings. Buyer beware.
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#6 GySgt New River

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 11:19 AM

"*****This is a Class Three Weapon*********** I have a Saiga 12ga that I was told was converted by Tromix. It has no tromix marking that I can see. This is a Class three weapon that is on form 4 here in TX. It has a 13" barrel."

13" SBS.........a Class 3 weapon, and no Tromix marking...........(Key words above in blue........)

Without even a picture to see to verify.........NOT A TROMIX SBS.
(Whoever did do it shirley put their name on it, right???)



Seems like your post in his ad has been removed....hmmmm? :lolol: Guess some people can't take a little, simple instruction.

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#7 Jeaux E

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 01:07 PM

Yep, I noticed that this morning when I went to check it................
Likely doesn't want anyone to point out that it's NOT A TROMIX SBS..........

It could be a TROMIX conversion, but Tony did not do the SBS work on it, as he is implying...........

Couldn't believe he took my post out..........................
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.........Time flies whether you're having fun or not, so let the good times roll !!!!

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#8 Jeaux E

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 08:52 PM

Got an e-mail from the Sturm board when I got back home today......... Thought it was pretty interesting......

I didn't know RAA did any SBS work............(hmmmmmmmmmmm)



"Your post was deleted by Buddy and Not by me. It was deleted because Sturm is not a message board. If you have something to say email it to the seller. I checked my Form 4 and this is a RAA factory gun. It was made by them and registered by them. Sorry for any confusion this has caused. GYZ"

For damned sure NOT a TROMIX SBS, anyway............
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.........Time flies whether you're having fun or not, so let the good times roll !!!!

"Life is much more pleasant if you don't sweat the small shit." -Tony
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#9 BobAsh

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 09:04 PM

"Your post...was deleted because Sturm is not a message board.

For damned sure NOT a TROMIX SBS, anyway....

LOL
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#10 TonyRumore

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 09:05 PM

I'm going to have to check this when I get to the shop tomorrow, but I believe RAA only has an importation FFL, not a manufacturing FFL. I'm not sure if an importer can manufacture a gun with that license.....I kinda doubt it.

It sounds like a Form 1 gun, where the guy listed RAA as the "original manufacturer" but they are not the manufacturer of the SBS, only the Title 1 gun. Some Joe Blow dude is the SBS manufacturer and his name and city/state should be marked on the gun.

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#11 scoutjoe

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 10:47 PM

Sounds like somebody is trying to pull a fast one on the buyer and the ATF....but whadda I know :)
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#12 GySgt New River

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 12:50 PM

I'm going to have to check this when I get to the shop tomorrow, but I believe RAA only has an importation FFL, not a manufacturing FFL. I'm not sure if an importer can manufacture a gun with that license.....I kinda doubt it.

It sounds like a Form 1 gun, where the guy listed RAA as the "original manufacturer" but they are not the manufacturer of the SBS, only the Title 1 gun. Some Joe Blow dude is the SBS manufacturer and his name and city/state should be marked on the gun.

Tony


Tony,

Did you find out any more on this issue?

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#13 John Rummel

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 07:20 PM

Mine fits the bill except for the grip nut and the safety stop. I got the welded back plate and trigger guard,HK sights,and moly job. I guess mine really is a Tromix mop up job,since it was partially converted already. Not an issue cause I would never sell unless they made me. Some day when Tony takes orders again I would like the nut hole done cause it was cut fugly.

#14 TonyRumore

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 07:23 PM

Yeah, there are some goofy semi-Tromix guns, where the gun was converted on a kitchen table, fucked up, and then sent in to be reworked. Those guns are all different, because the owner may or may not have paid to have it completely fixed, or just fixed enough to get it going.

Tony
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#15 John Rummel

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 07:28 PM

Can I call it a Tromix?

Let me guess

No.
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#16 Ben Vampatella

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 08:21 PM

If it is a Tromix, it is stamped as such, correct?
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#17 Gun Fanatic

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 10:26 PM

If it is a Tromix, it is stamped as such, correct?

Only if it is a SBS or you request it.
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#18 John Rummel

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 11:10 PM

No, its not stamped. Besides the grip nut, its a Tromix. Rock fuckin solid.

#19 BobAsh

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 11:48 PM

Only SBS are engraved, as required by law.
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#20 saiga12fan

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 10:54 AM

Only SBS are engraved, as required by law.

Does the law specify NOT to engrave anything other than SBS?
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#21 GySgt New River

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 11:32 AM

Only SBS are engraved, as required by law.

Does the law specify NOT to engrave anything other than SBS?



(The requirements are found in US Code Title 27 CFR 479 and are the same if you are a importer, manufacturer of firearms for sale, or making NFA items as a non 02/07 MFR)

simply put:
- You must mark the newly made NFA firearm with the S/N, Model Name or Number, *your* Name, City, State and the caliber or gauge. If you used the S/N, Model and caliber from the original Title I firearm, then you're already half-way there as far as markings go ...

- Accepted abbreviations may be used for your name (i.e., your ititials), city & state. Ex: John Q. Public, Anywhere, PA can be marked as JQ Public, ANY PA.

- The S/N must be marked on the receiver or frame, and must be no less than 1/16" in height and no less than 0.003" deep.

- The remaining information (name, city, state, model and caliber) may be placed EITHER on the receiver OR the barrel, and must be no less than 0.003" deep. There are no minimum height requirements for these markings.

- All required markings must be in Roman letters (English) and Arabic numerals (1,2,3 ...), and be "wholly unobstructed from plain view". In other words, they may not be placed under handguards, grips, inside mag wells, etc.


now for the ridiculous long annoying legalese version form the ATF ruling and law adjustment.

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 27, Volume 2]
[Revised as of April 1, 2003]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 27CFR479.102]
[Page 188-189]
TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS
CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
PART 479--MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS--Table of Contents
Subpart G--Registration and Identification of Firearms
Sec. 479.102 How must firearms be identified?
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must
legibly identify the firearm as follows:
(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual
serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must
not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller
than 1/16 inch; and
(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain
additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information
includes:
(i) The model, if such designation has been made;
(ii) The caliber or gauge;
(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when
applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State
(or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer
maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the
firearm; and
[[Page 189]]
(v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in
which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized
abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of
business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see
Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.
(B) The depth of all markings required by this section will be
measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges.
The height of serial numbers required by paragraph (a)(1) of this
section will be measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of
the character impression bottoms (bases).
© The Director may authorize other means of identification upon
receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate,
showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder
the effective administration of this part.
(d) In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize
other means of identifying that weapon upon receipt of a letter
application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that engraving,
casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon would be dangerous or
impracticable.
(e) A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a
complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed
of by you must be identified as required by this section.
(f)(1) Any part defined as a machine gun, muffler, or silencer for
the purposes of this part that is not a component part of a complete
firearm at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you
must be identified as required by this section.
(2) The Director may authorize other means of identification of
parts defined as machine guns other than frames or receivers and parts
defined as mufflers or silencers upon receipt of a letter application
from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification
is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this
part.


The ATF NFA Handbook is available and the issue is addressed in chapter 6 and 7...marking requirements are the same for both licensees and nonlicensees who manufacture a NFA firearm.

http://www.atf.gov/f...a/nfa_handbook/

the ATF currently has this in thier regulations book under Chaper 7 "Manufacturing of NFA Firearms"

Section 7.4 The identification of firearms.

7.4.1 Serial numbers.
Each manufacturer of a firearm must legibly identify it by engraving, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing on the firearm’s frame or receiver an individual serial number not duplicating any serial number placed by the manufacturer on any other firearm.120

The requirement that the marking be “conspicuously” placed on the firearm means that the marking must be
wholly unobstructed from plain view.

For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch.

7.4.1.1 What is an acceptable serial number?

Alpha characters (letters), for example a name,
are not acceptable as a serial number. A proper serial number may contain such characters or
letters, but it must have at least one numeric character (number).

ATF takes the view that marking “legibly” means using exclusively Roman letters (A, B, C, and so forth) and Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, and so forth).121

Deviations from this requirement have been found to
seriously impair ATF’s ability to trace firearms involved in crime.

7.4.2 Additional information.

Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view.

For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch.
The additional information includes:
(1) The model, if such designation has been made;
(2) The caliber or gauge;
(3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and
(4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place
of business.122

7.4.3 Measuring the depth of markings. The depth of all markings is measured from the flat surface
of the metal and not the peaks or ridges. The height of serial numbers is measured as the distance
between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases).

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#22 mike_f

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 10:50 PM

13" SBS must be marked by the "manufacturer" as Jeaux says. From the NFA:

"7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on
the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they
must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms
manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch.
The additional information includes:
(1) The model, if such designation has been made;
(2) The caliber or gauge;
(3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and
(4) The city andState (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place
of business.

http://www.atf.gov/f...ok/chapter7.pdf

There are NO Tromix SBS that don't have the "Tromix Broken Arrow OK" markings. Buyer beware.


Mine must be an exception to the rule because it is an SBS made by Tromix and does not have "Tromix Broken Arrow OK" markings. I submitted the Form 1 and the SBS has my name & city/state engraved as the manufacturer. Tromix is also engraved because I asked for it, but it does not have "Broken Arrow OK", just my city & state.

It probably won't be an issue with respect to resale until after I die - because I'm not letting it go before then! :super:

#23 BobAsh

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 11:52 PM

My bad, Tony has done form 1's for guys in the past, which get the customer's name and location. Pretty rare.
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#24 mike123456

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 09:33 PM

nevermind

Edited by mike123456, 03 December 2010 - 09:41 PM.

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#25 JohnInNH

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 08:20 PM

I also believe Tony wields the mag catch/release pin in place.
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