TronJohn 1 Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 I honestly have no idea... Are there any kind of explosive rounds for 12 gauge? Are they legal? What kinds are available? Are t hey expensive? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 they are not legal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TronJohn 1 Posted February 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 hmm. Why arent they legal? Who has them then? Just the military? I seen someone on snipers hide talking about a 40mm explosive round, thats what made me ask about 12 gauge So why are the 40mm ones legal, but 12's arent? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sidewinderl 43 Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhDPoVm74To Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 (edited) The 40mm ones aren't legal either. Not unless you pay the Destructive Device tax similar to how you would for a machine gun or short barreled shotgun. Basically, in the United States, anything that explodes with shrapnel is considered a DD, to my understanding. The round you're probably talking about is called the FRAG-12. You can see mention of it in this YouTube video on the AA12 shotgun. Hope this helps. Corbin *EDIT* Sidewinder beat me to it. LOL Edited February 19, 2009 by Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TronJohn 1 Posted February 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 The 40mm ones aren't legal either. Not unless you pay the Destructive Device tax similar to how you would for a machine gun or short barreled shotgun. Basically, in the United States, anything that explodes with shrapnel is considered a DD, to my understanding. The round you're probably talking about is called the FRAG-12. You can see mention of it in this YouTube video on the AA12 shotgun. What kind of tax is required to purchase these explosive rounds? Can you pay a tax on the 12 gauge explosive, or just the 40mm ones? How does the Frag-12 compare to other explosive 12 gauge rounds? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheGlobule 1 Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 I have seen 12 gauge shells loaded with hollow point slugs you can fill with an explosive. The shells are shipped like regular slugs and you have to put your own explosive in them (recipe is provided) I do not think those to be legal once the explosive compound is put in them. With the actual anti-terrorist regulations, I would not touch them though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TronJohn 1 Posted February 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 I have seen 12 gauge shells loaded with hollow point slugs you can fill with an explosive.The shells are shipped like regular slugs and you have to put your own explosive in them (recipe is provided) I do not think those to be legal once the explosive compound is put in them. With the actual anti-terrorist regulations, I would not touch them though. That would be a nasty fucking beast just on its own. If its already loaded with a hollowpoint, how does the explosive material get downrange to the target instead of just blowing up right then and there? How does a hollowpoint slug compare to 00 buck for HD? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Believe you pay a tax on EACH explosive round. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jasecloud4 2 Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 (edited) Here is just a few minor details. If manufactured properly and under the correct licensing they would be legal, however, being that they are shrapnel creating explosives, a tax stamp is required. Here is the big kicker, when a civilian buys a grenade, each one is considered a destructive device, and therefore a $200 tax stamp is required for each one. The device used to shoot them could also then be classified as a D.D. and therefore a $200 stamp COULD be charged to own the device as well. For example I own a 40mm Knights Armament m203 launcher attachment for the m16. I needed a tax stamp for that plus a stamp for each and every grenade I buy. Think of this in comparison to a Saiga, one 20 round drum full of explosive shot will cost you $5000. Plus the paperwork and CLEO signature for every individual shell. Pretty shitty huh? Oh and when using explosives an ATF Agent has to be present at the detonation of each round/grenade. One redeeming quality, though, if you own a gun trust or corporation you can place the D.D.'s under that so as to not need a CLEO signature. If I missed anything please let me know. Thanks "Some people say I'm crazy." ~ME Edited February 20, 2009 by jase Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sidewinderl 43 Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 The 40mm ones aren't legal either. Not unless you pay the Destructive Device tax similar to how you would for a machine gun or short barreled shotgun. Basically, in the United States, anything that explodes with shrapnel is considered a DD, to my understanding. The round you're probably talking about is called the FRAG-12. You can see mention of it in this YouTube video on the AA12 shotgun. Hope this helps. Corbin *EDIT* Sidewinder beat me to it. LOL fin-stabilized explosive shotgun rounds Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TronJohn 1 Posted February 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Ahh I watched that video and now see what the Frag-12 is and how it is sent down range and then explodes. God damn thats sweet. Too bad we cant get anything like that. Will there ever be an AA-12 available for the civilian market? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jasecloud4 2 Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 No, they were discontinued. And even if new ones were made the 1986 Ban prevents civilians from owning a weapon that fires more than one round upon squeezing the trigger that was not registered by May of 1986. Meaning the only machine guns us non-manufacturing or non-dealer licensed civilians can have are at least 23 years old. Sucks don't it? and even Class-3 dealers can only have ones from post-1986 with a letter from the chief of a police department, on department letterhead requesting one for demo purposes. Then the dealer has to perform a documented demo of the weapon. Then the weapon stays with dealer until he retires his license, at which point he either sells the weapon to another dealer with signed letterhead, or destroys it. I think in some cases it can be returned to the manufacturer. "Some people say I have issues." ~ME Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TronJohn 1 Posted February 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Wasnt there another company out there though trying to re-make the AA12 though recently for the civilian market? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wagonpaint 0 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 I have seen sabot slugs at a gun show that are explosive, but they need to be fired from a rifled barrel. I believe the 'Delta Force' website has them also, that come empy, with a recipe (as mentioned above). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sunnybean 939 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 I have seen sabot slugs at a gun show that are explosive, but they need to be fired from a rifled barrel. I believe the 'Delta Force' website has them also, that come empy, with a recipe (as mentioned above). Check out their site for more strange loads...Delta Force Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheGlobule 1 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 The one sold by Delta Force were the ones I was talking about... Allo?.. The ATF?... I need an agent here ASAP! The F...ing Zombies are getting away and I want to blow up their car with my home made 12 gauge hollow point explosive slug! Come quick! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bayoupiper 738 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Yer killin' me here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Waitadamnminutenow... you're saying... I could... legally buy... grenades? Seriously, are we talking fully transferrable here? Where can I find my local hand grenade retailer? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lipadj46 2 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Waitadamnminutenow... you're saying... I could... legally buy... grenades? Seriously, are we talking fully transferrable here? Where can I find my local hand grenade retailer? Yeah and imagine calling the ATF and asking if they can send an agent down to your friends cabin on Saturday morning for a few minutes to watch you toss a grenade? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheGlobule 1 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 I have seen a "live" 40mm grenade for sale a few days back on GB I think.. (they had a demil one as well) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFox 69 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 If your ammo has less then 1/4 OZ explosive in it the ATF does not classify it as a DD. This is why you can buy RAUFOSS 50BMG ammo without a tax stamp. I'm debating the possibility of swadging my own bullets using compressed Tannerite as a core. Of course for testing I have a plan involving a G2 Contender, a vice, and a lanyard. 3'' 1 1/4 oz JHP-CTC slugs. Jacketed Hallow Point Compressed Tannerite Core. Also available as 1oz Sabot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
impcmonk 1 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Hi-Vel is another place to get rounds something like your looking for. http://www.hi-vel.com/Catalog__22/catalog__22.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1mile50 102 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 If your ammo has less then 1/4 OZ explosive in it the ATF does not classify it as a DD. This is why you can buy RAUFOSS 50BMG ammo without a tax stamp. I'm debating the possibility of swadging my own bullets using compressed Tannerite as a core. Of course for testing I have a plan involving a G2 Contender, a vice, and a lanyard. 3'' 1 1/4 oz JHP-CTC slugs. Jacketed Hallow Point Compressed Tannerite Core. Also available as 1oz Sabot. That is correct. 1/4 oz. or more of H.E. makes for a D.D. However, in the state of FL, and perhaps other states as well, ALL explosive rounds are illegal, including Raufoss and .50 Spotter/Tracer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 I didn't realize you could legally get RAUFOSS rounds. I mean, I've seen a couple for sale before ($20 each), but I thought they were illegal, so I didn't bother. Corbin This is why you can buy RAUFOSS 50BMG ammo without a tax stamp. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jasecloud4 2 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) Waitadamnminutenow... you're saying... I could... legally buy... grenades? Seriously, are we talking fully transferrable here? Where can I find my local hand grenade retailer? Yes they are fully transferable, but finding someone willing to accept the liability is a little difficult to do. On top of which finding any U.S. made grenades are damn near impossible. Russian ones are findable, but there is the little Afghan war problem. During the Afghan-Russian conflict, the Russians had a problem with the Afghani's raiding supply lines. So they would put two numbers on each grenade box corresponding to slots in the box. Those two grenades were instant detonation grenades. The moment you pulled the pin they went boom. Why you ask? Because if you read Russian you would just toss those grenades, if you were Afghani and didn't understand a damn word of Russian you would pull the pin and go splat. Needless to say, there are a lot of insta-fuse grenades floating around for sale that came into the country back in the 1900's. So caveat emptor if you buy a grenade. "Some people say I have issues." ~ME Edited February 20, 2009 by jase Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pistol fixer 0 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) The answer to the question , is YES you can legally own a Live hand granade. It requires a form 4 , and $200. tax each. you can own a live 5000 lb. bomb if you can afford it. if you have the money and want to blow $200 plus the cost of the device per shot , go for it. You don't need an ATF agent on sight. however you will need to notify the ATF that the D.D. has been used and needs to be taken off the NFA registry. you must also comply with State and Local laws. You can buy these items from a Destructive Device Dealer which is different than the regular SOT(special occupational tax Payer) Class III dealer. Fun comes at a price. think about what it takes to own a 7.62 minigun . Transferable Gun $250K to $600K plus tax $200, then you must feed it. 6000 rounds per min. @ 50 cents per round= $3000 per min. well you get the idea. in this Country, you Have just as much Freedom and can have just as much Fun as you can pay for. I want a fully operational AirCraft Carrier. LOL just my .02 Edited February 20, 2009 by pistol fixer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jasecloud4 2 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) The answer to the question , is YES you can legally own a Live hand granade. It requires a form 4 , and $200. tax each. you can own a live 5000 lb. bomb if you can afford it. if you have the money and want to blow $200 plus the cost of the device per shot , go for it. You don't need an ATF agent on sight. however you will need to notify the ATF that the D.D. has been used and needs to be taken off the NFA registry. you must also comply with State and Local laws. You can buy these items from a Destructive Device Dealer which is different than the regular SOT(special occupational tax Payer) Class III dealer. Fun comes at a price. think about what it takes to own a 7.62 minigun . Transferable Gun $250K to $600K plus tax $200, then you must feed it. 6000 rounds per min. @ 50 cents per round= $3000 per min. well you get the idea. in this Country, you Have just as much Freedom and can have just as much Fun as you can pay for. I want a fully operational AirCraft Carrier. LOL just my .02 250-660k is a little steep, if your in the market go to http://www.subguns.com. You can find one for under 250k Of course finding a dealer to sell an average civilian a grenade is damn near impossible. Think of the liability of it, man comes home and finds his wife cheating on him, bad enough he can go buy an AK or an AR to do the job, no he decides to go to his safe an pull out his m203 with LIVE 40mm HE grenades. Talk about a mess Hey you can find a Ma-Deuce (M2 .50 cal) for under 45k and will do the job just as clean. Edited February 20, 2009 by jase Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jasecloud4 2 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) Wasnt there another company out there though trying to re-make the AA12 though recently for the civilian market? Yes, but is in limited run. Concept was great but the production cost is high. The current patent owner is Military Police Systems, Inc. Only ten were produced in the latest run and all of them are owned by the Marine Corps. The new version has had 188 changes made from the original and has experienced the same thing every mag fed semi/full auto shotgun up to the saiga had issues with, feeding with certain types of low brass, that sort of thing. The newer designs are only made to run on slug, buckshot, or FRAG-12. Plus the lack of interest in it initially hindered production. The majority of assault weapon makers get designs mass produced first via government contract. AK's had Russian backing, AR-15's American military backing. Once the weapon was proven on the military scale only then did the civilian market begin to pick it up. Look at the troubled history of the AR-10, it was dead for damn near 40 years before Armalite brought it back for civilian use. When the U.S. Military turned the initial AA12 down, they doomed it. Only after MPS acquired the contract, improved it and convinced the Marine Corps to buy it did they finally get somewhere, if only in a very limited run. Sorry about the rant. One thing to note though, you would think the Marine Corp being as cheap as they are would just buy some full auto Saiga-12's. Just imagine what Mike Davidson could come up with in terms of drums if he had a few million dollars of government money coming in? Assault weapon accessory bailout anyone? On top of which the Saiga's all run off a very low maintenance design that is well suited to sandy environments. But no use in preaching to the choir. "Some people say I have issues." ~ME Edited February 20, 2009 by jase Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pistol fixer 0 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) Thanks Jase; i went to Subguns and this is all i found. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 05/13/2009 Ad Information Ad Number: 14672 Date Posted: 02/12/2009 Price: $260,000 Text of Ad We have a fully transferable GE M134 mini gun for sale that is in excellent condition. This gun comes with the original receiver, feeder delinker, 600 round ammo box and has been upgraded with Garwood spade grip and fire control box, electrical cables, feed chute, motor, mount assembly (youke, sight rail and vertical arm). Gun is ready to shoot and runs flawlessly. On form 4 in Arizona. You may have seen it in action mounted on top of a land rover at the previous MG Shooters events in Wikieup. Price is $260,000.00 In addition to the above mini gun we have available a complete parts kit consisting of a Garwood 80% receiver, complete housing assembly (with bolts, tracks and safeing sector), new FN barrels, barrel clamp assembly with flash hider, motor, feeder delinker, degroat fire control box and cables (everything you need except a set of spade grips to make a post sample gun after receiving appropriate ATF appoval and finishing the receiver, or use as spares for above gun). Also available are two 1200 round ammo boxes (one new), one new 3200 round ammo box, a round repositioner, spare springs bearing pins, feed chute and Garwood battery box with batteries. We are asking $60,000.00 for all the above. Contact Information Name: Kenton Tucker Street Address: City: State/Province: Arizona Zip/Postal Code: Country: Telephone Number: E-Mail Address: tuckercorp@cox.net Web Site URL: View NFA Firearms ads posted by this user View All ads posted by this user ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I still could not Afford to Feed It. . Edited February 20, 2009 by pistol fixer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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