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What kind of accuracy are you getting from your Saiga 308?

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I was under the impression the MG42 barrels were changed to cool off not because they wore out. Now if the barrel is allowed to continue to heat up then indeed its on borrowed time but everything Ive seen is that once that barrel cools it can go right back into service. Any gurus have one to confirm?

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I get 1.5-2 MOA now that I have switched from the M118LR with 175gr. bullets to the lighter 147gr.-155gr. handloads on once fired M118LR match brass. I have done some massaging to the rifle to get it to do that though, plus I have had thousands of rounds down range since I was 5 years old. Grew up in WV, dad was hardcore military man, so I have had plenty of practice, but I'm still not as good as I should be. But I am very pleased with 1.5-2 MOA, thats the same as my Armalite AR10A2 with 20" brl, half the price.

Saiga has the 21" brl.

Nh

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About 1.25MOA

 

Sellier & Bellot 147gr. FMJ

 

16" Saiga 7.62 Nato/308Win

Nikon buck master scope, on a http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-264/AK-Saiga-mount-low/Detail that I modified by welding the rail to the mount so i do not have to worry about the screws backing out.

measured from 1 and 4

 

I pulled the 4th and 5th. Fifth shot was really pulled hard, the benches at the range are horribly uncomfortable and awkward to sit at.

 

CIMG2916.jpg

Edited by Coal_forge

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Think about it this way...

 

You have just "enlisted" in the Infantry and after minimal instruction they hand you a (converted) Saiga 308 with generic brass FMJ. Now the things that will run through your mind once it becomes obvious you are going into combat is this damn thing has never jammed and will hit a man sized target out past 300m with just those lousy irons you are forbidden to modify, and you can lay down effective covering fire way past that IF you have the skill. It turns concreate walls into concealment and will stop cold a lightly armored vehicle.

 

MOA will never even enter your thoughts. In short its not the weak link no matter what it can never be any better than you and will never leave you holding a weapon that wont fire.

 

That gents is a thing of beauty.

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i went to the range last weekend to take my 16" 308 for its first outing.i was very pleased with the results.i am certainly no exceptional marksmen,but i was able to (after reading aksrben's posts and lots of research) manage a best group of 4 at 7/8 inch in the rain.lol.i spent about half the day there and most of the other groups were in the 1.00 to 1.30 range.belive it or not i have a used millet scope with a 6x mag that i bought used on the bay for $40.and i also use the cr-10 and mimic bens break in.i hate to be a copy-cat........but if it gets results like that,ill keep on copying!lol!i was using remington 150gr sp core-lokt ammo.the fiocchi 150gr psp also did very well almost on par with the remmy ammo.

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my 308 DOES NOT like heavy rounds.like it opens the groups up 1-1.5 inchs at 100 yards.i was wondering if anyone has tried the heavier rounds a 300+ yards?my rifle seems to like the 150gr rounds.

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I get 3-4 inch groups with mine. Thats iron sites, off hand sitting, with Federal Power-shok ammo. That's great for my intended use of the gyn.

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Never shot groups at 100 with my .308. However but I took my 16" with an eotech in a modified BP-02 out last weekend to a known distance range. With 10-15 mph gusting crosswind, 400 yards from sitting = 10/10 hits on a 20" steel plate (avg width of a torso) with cheap Monarch 145 grn FMJ steel cased ammo from Academy.

 

Paper target 10 shot group at that distance was little under 12", so that's about 3 moa. The paper group was about twice as wide as it was tall due to the wind variation. I haven't pulled one of the Monarch cartridges apart, but I'm guessing the bullet is a flat base which won't cut the crosswind like a boat tail. If this assumption is correct that would move it down to 1.5 moa or so... again, just an assumption.

 

It was getting dark so I didn't have a chance to scoot further back. I have some SMK 168s laying around, so a boat tailed bullet in some tuned up hand loads is next on my list. You'll never see this rifle on the line at Camp Perry, but for those that say this rifle isn't accurate are missing it. This is a great rifle that has never had a malfunction and it's plenty accurate enough for me.

Edited by spitstickler

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spitstickler, that's some nice shooting! Don't be surprised if the SMK 168 actually does worse than the cheap monarch. The saiga barrel is a 1:12 twist rate so it won't do well with heavier bullets. 168 may be ok though. Keep us posted on your results.

 

I shoot about 2.5 MOA at 100yds with iron sights using Brown Bear in a prone supported position. I could do better with a scope but haven't settled on one yet. My .308 is the 16" barrel version with a tapco fcg. I've mentioned to several people on several forums about what an undervalued weapon this is but they don't seem to be listening. They equate undervalued with cheap. They'd rather have a $2000+ SOCOM II that they would shoot just as poorly as the $450 saiga.

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my 308 DOES NOT like heavy rounds.like it opens the groups up 1-1.5 inchs at 100 yards.i was wondering if anyone has tried the heavier rounds a 300+ yards?my rifle seems to like the 150gr rounds.

The rifling is for the 150g ammo that is so commonly used. Stay with it if you want to shoot heavier ammo buy a boltie that's rifled for it.

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I haven't been able to get mine anywhere near the target because the rail is canted upward on the receiver. I've had two 308s and both of them were like this. Can't believe I'm the only one. Anyone know a good permanent fix?

 

As to accuracy IMHO none of these claims mean very much without stating what kind of ammo you were using and how many kinds you've tried. If you shoot Wolf that's one thing, surplus another, hunting ammo another, match another, reloads another, etc. etc. Even if you've shot high dollar match ammo if you've only tried one brand or bullet weight you could completely be missing your rifle's sweet spot. I have a hunch these rifles could display a lot better accuracy if one would just take the time to dial them in like they would a fine bench rest rifle. Of course its not going to compete in that area but when someone here says he gets 1.5-2 moa and some guy who spends all day dialing in his AR says he gets .5 moa I don't think we're comparing apples to apples.

I shimmed my scope rail--- seems to work.

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I haven't been able to get mine anywhere near the target because the rail is canted upward on the receiver. I've had two 308s and both of them were like this. Can't believe I'm the only one. Anyone know a good permanent fix?

 

As to accuracy IMHO none of these claims mean very much without stating what kind of ammo you were using and how many kinds you've tried. If you shoot Wolf that's one thing, surplus another, hunting ammo another, match another, reloads another, etc. etc. Even if you've shot high dollar match ammo if you've only tried one brand or bullet weight you could completely be missing your rifle's sweet spot. I have a hunch these rifles could display a lot better accuracy if one would just take the time to dial them in like they would a fine bench rest rifle. Of course its not going to compete in that area but when someone here says he gets 1.5-2 moa and some guy who spends all day dialing in his AR says he gets .5 moa I don't think we're comparing apples to apples.

I shimmed my scope rail--- seems to work.

 

Hmm I know it 'looks' canted due to the slant of the receiver bottom but have you put in a vice and tested with a level?

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I haven't been able to get mine anywhere near the target because the rail is canted upward on the receiver. I've had two 308s and both of them were like this. Can't believe I'm the only one. Anyone know a good permanent fix?

 

As to accuracy IMHO none of these claims mean very much without stating what kind of ammo you were using and how many kinds you've tried. If you shoot Wolf that's one thing, surplus another, hunting ammo another, match another, reloads another, etc. etc. Even if you've shot high dollar match ammo if you've only tried one brand or bullet weight you could completely be missing your rifle's sweet spot. I have a hunch these rifles could display a lot better accuracy if one would just take the time to dial them in like they would a fine bench rest rifle. Of course its not going to compete in that area but when someone here says he gets 1.5-2 moa and some guy who spends all day dialing in his AR says he gets .5 moa I don't think we're comparing apples to apples.

I shimmed my scope rail--- seems to work.

 

Hmm I know it 'looks' canted due to the slant of the receiver bottom but have you put in a vice and tested with a level?

No.. but i had to adjust my scope all the way then use mill dot to get it back on paper so i used masking tape while at range to raise the picatiny rail at front screw to see if it helped..and it did. Making thin sheet metal shim for permanent fix.

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I know it is an old thread but....

 

My 4x Bushnell scoped .308 is regularly < 2 MOA using South African surplus. More than adequate for my uses.

 

Now to try 200+

 

Very happy Saiga owner.

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spitstickler, that's some nice shooting! Don't be surprised if the SMK 168 actually does worse than the cheap monarch. The saiga barrel is a 1:12 twist rate so it won't do well with heavier bullets. 168 may be ok though. Keep us posted on your results.

 

I shoot about 2.5 MOA at 100yds with iron sights using Brown Bear in a prone supported position. I could do better with a scope but haven't settled on one yet. My .308 is the 16" barrel version with a tapco fcg. I've mentioned to several people on several forums about what an undervalued weapon this is but they don't seem to be listening. They equate undervalued with cheap. They'd rather have a $2000+ SOCOM II that they would shoot just as poorly as the $450 saiga.

do you have your S308 with the stock trigger??

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do you have your S308 with the stock trigger??

 

Glockfan,

 

Sorry for the delay, did not read this post until now.

 

I have the TAPCO g2 trigger installed on my .308. I bought it from Carolina Shooters Supply and the trigger set was modded to fit in the .308 Saiga. Apparently there is a hump that must be ground down. So it's a TAPCO G2 but it's been modded for the S308.

 

Hope that helps.

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Took Janis (S308 w/21"bbl) today.. about 93' out and humid. 100 yards..

 

Shot about 15 rounds thru her with THAT factory trigger and irons.. uggh.. :cryss:

 

From a Bench with a BAG rest I took my time (about 6 second pace) and shot these 3 rounds... 2" grouping.

 

post-8775-075072100 1279988681_thumb.jpg

 

Ammo was Winchester Super X CXP2 150GR with power-point..

 

Most groups of 4 shots each were about 3 1/2" which isn't bad either.. (factory sheet said 93mm / 3.66 inches btw)

 

Off to tear her apart now and have my way with her.... :devil:

 

Thinking it can only get better when I convert her... (today)..

 

 

Albert

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spitstickler, that's some nice shooting! Don't be surprised if the SMK 168 actually does worse than the cheap monarch. The saiga barrel is a 1:12 twist rate so it won't do well with heavier bullets. 168 may be ok though. Keep us posted on your results.

 

 

The rifling is for the 150g ammo that is so commonly used. Stay with it if you want to shoot heavier ammo buy a boltie that's rifled for it.

 

I'll happily admit that I know very little about Saigas and have never owned one, but I do know a bit about .308's and accuracy, and the above is not true. The vast majority of .308 bolt guns are 1/12, including my Remington PSS. The barrel on mine is cut to 20", and it's run thousands of 175's and some up to 190 without a hint of destabalization and an average accuracy of .6 MOA. I know guys with 16.5" 1/12's who have done the same with no problem. I won't argue that a Saiga might do better with lighter bullets, but it's not because the rate of twist can't handle it.

 

Pic of me in a match this spring, shooting the 1/12 .308 with 175 SMK's and cleaning a target at around 650 yards.

 

me.jpg

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Saiga 16in .308 Converted (no accuracy work other than the FCG)

Tasco gas piston

Dinzag FCG

Tasco T6 Stock

Tasco Intrafuse Tri-rail Forearm

Hogue Grip

Black Jack Recoil Buffer

UTG Leapers 5th Gen Scope Mount

Leapers Accushot SCP3-416AOMD Scope

Standard 8Rnd factory magazine

 

Caldwell Lead Sled Solo Rifle Shooting Rest

 

Test Date: 20100730

Temperature: 89F

Barometer: 30.06

Wind: 5 - 15 mph from 270 relative (left to right)

Range: 50 yards

 

Deflection (.415BC, 147gr, 2600fps, 50YD):

15mph: 0.3in

10mph: 0.2in

05mph: 0.1in

 

(from http://www.hornady.c...tics-calculator)

 

Group# Set# Size Cartridge

1 - 1 - 11/16" DAG Surplus 7.62 147gr FMJ

2 - 2 - 2" Radway Green Surplus 7.62 147gr FMJ

3 - 2 - 1" Wolf .308 150gr FMJ

4 - 2 - 1 15/16" Fiocchi .308 165gr Game King HPBT

5 - 2 - 1 3/4" Winchester .308 150gr PHP Powermax

6 - 3 - 1 1/8" American Eagle 7.62 168gr OTM

7 - 3 - 1" Hornady .308 155gr A-Max

8 - 3 - 3" Winchester 7.62 149gr FMJ

9 - 3 - 2 3/8" Black Hills .308 Match 155gr Hornady A-Max

10 - 3 - 7/8" Hornady .308 168gr A-Max

11 - 4 - 1 1/2" Nosler Custom Competition .308 168gr

12 - 4 - 1 15/16" Black Hills .308 Match 168gr BTHP

 

 

Criteria:

 

No cleaning. 5-round groups. Groups were fired in four sets with a cease-fire in between (10min). Short pauses between groups (2-4min). Minimal break between shots (30sec).

 

Perceptions: An interesting experiment without cleaning to simulate field conditions. It was my first experience with the Calder Lead Sled Solo, so the groups aren't as tight as I can get them. Note the 7/8" group with the Hornady 168gr A-Max despite the 45 rounds of barrel foul preceding.

 

BTW... the target circle is 2 1/2" at the outside, with the inner rings at 1/4" spacing.

 

20100730-TGT01-01.jpg

Edited by TxMark

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TxMark.. pretty good shooting there..

 

I just did a 200 yard shooting session.. used a front Caldwell Bag rest with my hand under the handguard resting on the bag.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=56771

 

Got about a 3" group at 200 yds.. with TulAmmo 150gr FMJ.. .294 BC and 2800 FPS..

 

Going back tommorrow in the AM for another round.. :killer:

 

These things are fun... wish the ammo $ would come down a hair more locally.... $18 for 20 at WallyWorld is no good.

 

 

Albert

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Thanks Albert. Very good job on your 200Yd as well.

 

Looks like you need to start doing some mail order ammo. Cheaper than dirt and MidwayUSA both have great prices on Wolf and DAG '93 Surplus. Palmetto State Armory has good sales. AIM Surplus has deals on SA and RG Surplus.

 

Take care.

Edited by TxMark

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TxMark.. going to order 500 of the Wolf 150 from J&G or the Armory this coming week its like $150-170..

 

Looks just like the Tula 150gr ammo I just shot.. so we'll see..

 

Going to hopefully soon threading my 21" bbl and getting a 'brake' for her.

 

Anyone else have any 'target' pics for the great Saiga 308??

 

 

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TxMark.. going to order 500 of the Wolf 150 from J&G or the Armory this coming week its like $150-170..

 

Looks just like the Tula 150gr ammo I just shot.. so we'll see..

 

Going to hopefully soon threading my 21" bbl and getting a 'brake' for her.

 

Anyone else have any 'target' pics for the great Saiga 308??

 

I've always had great luck with Wolf in the Saigas. That's a great price.

 

Wolf vs. Tula. I understand that Tula is the manufacturing plant and Wolf is a supplier that brands the ammo. Unless I'm wrong, the only reason to pick one over the other is price, given the same load.

 

BTW... will be going back to the range Sunday to continue the cartridge comparisons. I wish we could get a tacked thread in the forum for quality cartridge research.

 

Take care.

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Well I ordered 9 boxes of Tula 150gr FMJ from Graf & Sons for $8.59/box

 

and I ordered 1 box Private Partizan 168gr MATCH HPBT Brass Cased ammo also.. $17.59/box

 

post-8775-098043000 1281749076_thumb.jpg

 

Trying to save money for a bigger bill looming... (car issues)..

 

I may take Janis (Saiga 308) out tommorrow for some more testing at 100 and 200 yards again.. :killer:

 

I'll do 4 rounds of the MATCH ammo at 100 and 200 yards to see if its TIGHTER..

 

Keep you posted.

 

Al

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Saiga 16in .308 Converted

Tasco gas piston

Dinzag FCG

Tasco T6 Stock

Tasco Intrafuse Tri-rail Forearm

Hogue Grip

Black Jack Recoil Buffer

UTG Leapers 5th Gen Scope Mount

Leapers Accushot SCP3-416AOMD Scope

Standard 8Rnd factory magazine

 

Caldwell Lead Sled Solo Rifle Shooting Rest

 

Test Date: 20100815

Temperature: 86F-90F

Barometer: 30.00

Wind: Variable 5 - West 6

Elevation: 110 feet

Range: 50 yards

 

Deflection (.415BC, 147gr, 2600fps, 50YD):

15mph: 0.3in

10mph: 0.2in

05mph: 0.1in

 

(from http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator)

 

Shot# Set# Size Cartridge

1 1 1 3/4" Black Hills .308 Match 168gr BTHP

2 1 1 1/4" Nosler Custom Competition .308 168gr

3 1 1/2" Hornady .308 168gr A-Max

4 2 1 7/8" Black Hills .308 Match 155gr Hornady A-Max

5 2 1 5/16" Winchester 7.62 149gr FMJ

6 2 1 1/4" Hornady .308 155gr A-Max

7 2 1 1/4" American Eagle 7.62 168gr OTM

8 2 1 3/16" Winchester .308 150gr PHP Powermax

9 2 2 3/8" Fiocchi .308 165gr Game King HPBT

10 3 1 3/8" DAG Surplus 7.62 147gr FMJ

11 3 2" Wolf .308 150gr FMJ

12 3 1 3/8" Radway Green Surplus 7.62 147gr FMJ

13 3 1 3/8" Black Hills Match 168gr HPBT Moly

 

Criteria:

 

No cleaning. 5-round groups. Groups were fired in four sets with a cease-fire in between (10min). Short pauses between groups (2-4min). Minimal break between shots (30sec).

 

Impressions:

 

With an impressive 1/2" group from the Hornady 168gr A-Max, one might the argument that the Saiga .308 is conceivably an MOA capable rifle. Looking at 7/8" and 1/2" groups in two test firings, I'm convinced that this cartridge is definitely my mid-weight hunting round (147gr-168gr).

 

Two test firing comparison:

 

Test#1 Test#2 Cartridge

1 15/16 1 3/4" Black Hills .308 Match 168gr BTHP

1 1/2" 1 1/4" Nosler Custom Competition .308 168gr

7/8" 1/2" Hornady .308 168gr A-Max

2 3/8" 1 7/8" Black Hills .308 Match 155gr Hornady A-Max

3" 1 5/16" Winchester 7.62 149gr FMJ

1" 1 1/4" Hornady .308 155gr A-Max

1 1/8" 1 1/4" American Eagle 7.62 168gr OTM

1 3/4" 1 3/16" Winchester .308 150gr PHP Powermax

1 5/16" 2 3/8" Fiocchi .308 165gr Game King HPBT

11/16" 1 3/8" DAG Surplus 7.62 147gr FMJ

1" 2" Wolf .308 150gr FMJ

2" 1 3/8" Radway Green Surplus 7.62 147gr FMJ

 

Comparison-Hornady168grAmax.jpeg

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TXMark.. Very nice groups.. Hornady is a HOT round for sure.. (always seems zippy)...

 

Suggest less time between shots.. 30 seconds it toooo long for most of us..

 

The 2-4 minutes between group/sets is fine..

 

Also suggest moving back to 100 yards..

 

I shoot 100 yards and get avg 2 1/2" groups.. of 6-8 shots per string..

 

I wait about 4 seconds between shots (just enough time to get the 'cross-hairs' back on the target.. I wait about 2-3 mins between groups (changing the mag or reloading the ammo into the mag)

 

I noticed AKsarban (I think) whom reloads gets tiny groups (sub 1") also.. with 145-155 gr mostly..

 

My style of shooting goes with possibly having Zomies to stupid to know better still charging at me from 300 yards out and I have to pick them off in a 'timely' fashion.. figure in 130 seconds from 900 ft. they will be on you.. Based on 21' per 3 seconds for running at you (or less)..

 

I figure at 400-600 yards if I can tag you (or zombies) anywhere with the 308 your going to re-think abit..

 

going to take the Prvt Partisan 168GR HPBT MATCH stuff out next outing and SLOW down and see what I can get out of it...

 

 

Al

 

 

Al

 

 

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TXMark.. Very nice groups.. Hornady is a HOT round for sure.. (always seems zippy)...

 

Suggest less time between shots.. 30 seconds it toooo long for most of us..

 

Also suggest moving back to 100 yards..

 

Al

 

Thanks Al.

 

30 seconds between shots is pretty much a maximum. The reality was probably more like 5 to 15 seconds for most shots. I wasn't pushing for speed, wanting to cut down on bore erosion and barrel warp from heat.

 

When I'm testing new cartridges for accuracy, I never shoot at over 50 yards; too many variables, especially wind. Once I find the right cartridge for the weapon, I move to the sight-in range (300 yards for the 7.62) for a good zero and work back to 50 yards. From there, I plan to move up to 400,500, then 600 yards and finalize my ballistics tables for three different loads.

 

I know there are going to be moans from the gallery, but I'm definitely dropping to three round groups from now on. The accuracy rated ammo is simply too expensive. Besides, I found some great 20 round belt-clip cartridge boxes that hold 6 groups of 3 rounds each, perfect for mapping the box for multiple loads.

 

Outside of finding just the right accuracy cartridge for me, I wanted to share valuable research with others. Now, more people with a 16in Saiga 308 have a better idea of accurate cartridges that have a proper pressure curve for the rifle. Maybe that will save someone money. One thing was glaringly evident; the loads that are obviously designed for long barrel bolt action riflles. :)

 

I can't wait to see what you get from the Prvi match rounds. Like I said, the first three rounds with total failure to eject for me, and I decided to save them for the bolt action. Since you've got a 21in barrel, maybe they will work. Let us know.

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