Post conversion blues....

[tire iron 13]

I got a Saiga 12 (new) and as soon as I got it I "pulled the plug" to check the gas ports. I have three visible and accounted for.

 

So I converted it. (I didn't shoot it pre-conversion..)

 

KA Gas Puck

Gunfixr Gas Valve

Tapco FCG (I ground off the part that needed grinding)

Tromix front handguard (and adapter)

Tromix bolt on trigger guard

Tapco SAW grip

 

Left out the BHO. None of my AK's have it - and I want the same manual of arms - so I left it out.

 

 

Right now I am using a KVAR rear stock (Warsaw length) - I haven't decided which rear stock I want yet..

 

 

I have 1 factory 5 round mag, 4 Korean 5 round mags, 2 Surefire 8 round mags.

 

I bought Federal low brass rounds.

 

Went to range - and I got 55 Failures to Extract out of 55 rounds fired. I tried all of my mags and the result was exactly the same. I have the Gunfixr Gas Valve set on "3" (tried all settings though). Bolt handle would come back just far enough for the spent shell to clear the chamber and then the empty would be jammed up into the barrel extension - so it is not even stove-piping.

 

I triple checked the Gas Puck and Gunfixr valve - and the gas ports - everything is as it should be.

 

Any ideas???????

 

Thanks

 

t i

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

I'll just be the asshole and say the obvious: shoulda tested her before you restored her, (to be eligible for free warranty work).

 

Hindsight sure is great, ain't it?

 

Anyway, since that's no longer a possibility I'm not sure what the problem is. My suggestion would be to double-check that you're using the Gunfixr plug properly, make sure everything is nicely lubed and then take ~100 high-brass shells out to your range and run em through the gun, (on the lowest setting on which they'll cycle, probably 1-/1+), to "break er in". Then try some of the Federal el cheapo birdshot on setting 2, (or 3 if necessary), and see what results.

[tire iron 13]

yeah.....when I got all those FTE's - and when I decided to post the results here....I thought *CRAP* - I should have tested it first - and I am gonna hear about it on the board!!! Thanks for getting it out the way for me PA!!

 

I will try the high brass shells.

 

What could it be though?? I hand cycled this thing probably 500 times prior to shooting it.

 

Thanks,

 

t i

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

I'm not sure what it could be. The way you describe your gun, you should not be getting the shitty results that you are. I'm sure you've read the instructions, but are you sure that you're using the Gunfixr plug the right way, (tightening all the way down, then backing out to the desired setting)? Mine is kind of funky on my gun.. the plug bottoms out just after the "2" setting, so 2 is the first setting I have available, then 3, then I have to back it out a bit more for 1-/1+, (the lowest settings).

 

I think the main problem is that the very first thing you've tried to fire out of your gun is low-brass cheap birdshot. There is most definitely a "break-in" period with S-12's, during which they should be fed high-brass. I fired several dozen shells out of mine before I restored her, and I started with low-brass birdshot. I didn't have much luck, even with Gunfixr's plug, (the very first part I bought and swapped out for the Russian, and still the part I'm most glad I replaced). I didn't have all FTE's, but it was probably 2 out of 3, (mostly stovepipes). After that, I read up on what to do, (on this board), and ran several dozen high-brass birdshot/slug loads through her.. now she eats el cheapo low-brass Federal, (on Gunfixr setting 2), for breakfast and asks for more.

 

Since you've verified that you have 3 unobstructed gas ports, I don't think that the difficulty you're experiencing is serious or by any means permanent. She just needs to be "loosened up". Run ~100 high-brass shells through her, (on the lowest gas setting that will allow em to cycle), and I think you'll see a huge improvement in her ability to then handle low-brass birdshot effectively.

Edited June 7, 2009 by post-apocalyptic

[tire iron 13]

Then running a 100 or so high brass shells is what I shall do!!

 

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

 

t i

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Then running a 100 or so high brass shells is what I shall do!!

 

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

 

t i

 

You're welcome, man. Don't despair, I'm pretty sure that "breaking her in" will solve your problems. Remember that she's a Russian bitch and tuned to their "quality control" standards; i.e. too tight right out-of-the-box for anything but high-brass shells.

 

Break that bitch in and overnight she'll be spittin out that cheap plinking Federal low-brass birdshot just like she should.

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

Yo Tire Iron,

you left your BHO out?

 

I lost my BHO spring

 

If you still have your unwanted spring, I'll happily send you compensation for a frosty cold beverage and a SASE, in exchange for it.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Yo Tire Iron,

you left your BHO out?

 

I lost my BHO spring

 

If you still have your unwanted spring, I'll happily send you compensation for a frosty cold beverage and a SASE, in exchange for it.

 

Don't do it without considering how the BHO mechanism is more valuable to the operation of your S-12 than it is to any other Saiga firearm that comes with it. Loading on a closed bolt in a S-12 is quite the pain in the ass. In contrast, doing this with a Saiga 7.62x39 is quite easy, and it's more of a viable option to leave the BHO out of a rifle like that than it is out of the S-12 imo.

 

If I were you, Tire Iron, I'd install that BHO, (with spring), into my S-12. Shoot it a bit more and you'll be glad you did.

 

If you'd rather notch your safety lever to create a BHO that way, (which is a viable alternative), then sell your BHO spring to Chile. He's been foolish and lost his and he could really use another since he appreciates how valuable the BHO function is on his shotgun.

[TX-Zen 287]

Yo Tire Iron,

you left your BHO out?

 

I lost my BHO spring

 

If you still have your unwanted spring, I'll happily send you compensation for a frosty cold beverage and a SASE, in exchange for it.

 

 

You can have mine, I never reinstalled it after the conversion and got along just fine without it. Now that I have the magwell installed I have no use whatsoever for it.

 

Can you fit a can of beer in an envelope?

 

 

 

PM inbound

 

 

 

Z

[fxhart 14]

Just out of curiosity, do you think leaving the BHO lever out of the gun, while still having the hammer shortened, have any effect on the gun?

[gtnichols 51]

Are you using a plastic/rubber buffer? if so take it out. does it do this when you hand cycle it?

Sounds like the carrier is not coming back far enough for some reason, was all the ammo you shot the same kind?

[Moe Zambeak 53]

Did you polish your bolt yet? It makes a HUGE difference in the smoothness of the action IMO.

[VWBeamer 1]

I had the same problem. The gun needs to be loosen up a little.

 

This my first saiga, but i have a lot of Russian arms. They are designed to run loosey goosey. They work best when they have had several 100 rounds in them.

 

But i don't have that kind of time or money.

 

This what i did-

 

1.I field stripped my gun.

 

2.Then I took some fine metal polishing compound, used to polish Aluminum wheels, and coated the places where metal hits metal, the bolt , hammer where it hits the bolt, rails, etc . basically you are lubing the gun with the paste.

 

3.I reassembled the gun.

 

4.Then I simply cycled it by hand 75-100 times. Did while watching King of the Hill. I would not suggest firing it with paste in it.

 

5.Field stripped it.

 

6.Cleaned it it very well. This is the hardest part. Be certain you have removed all the paste.

 

7.Then oiled it with some break free, reassembled again.

 

It fires anything now ( it fires the cheap Remington target loads), and I didn't have to spend a bunch of money for high brass ammo to break it in.

 

If anything, it's over gassed, so I'm ordering a gas fixer plug for it now.

Edited June 7, 2009 by VWBeamer

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

Yo Tire Iron,

you left your BHO out?

 

I lost my BHO spring

 

If you still have your unwanted spring, I'll happily send you compensation for a frosty cold beverage and a SASE, in exchange for it.

 

 

You can have mine, I never reinstalled it after the conversion and got along just fine without it. Now that I have the magwell installed I have no use whatsoever for it.

 

Can you fit a can of beer in an envelope?

 

 

 

PM inbound

 

 

 

Z

 

 

PM received... Thnx

[sunnybean 939]

Some here will say not to spend more money on parts. However, I'll advise to buy these reduced power recoil springs. By the time you spend the $$$ on ammo to break in your gun the $9 spring will seem like a hell of a bargain. I have put these in three of my two hole S-12. One was brand new and would not cycle the Federal #7 low brass...very similar results to what you're experiencing. Once I put the spring in it has yet to jam.

 

BTW, the suggestion to polish the bolt, carrier, and rails is also good advise.

 

Good luck

[SaigaNoobie 66]

First, can we get a photo of the jam?

 

Sounds like it's doing the same thing mine was before I went in and ground a smooth feed ramp.... Shells started feeding a little low and bouncing off the ramp and jamming at the top of the barrel extension. I took a thin, long dremel grind stone and smoothed out the feed ramp.... You do this at your own risk, but it helped me.

[tire iron 13]

I don't have a buffer in it - I read on here that most feel the buffers actually CAUSE malfunctions - so I never bought one.

 

It hand cycles just fine - I hand cycled it probably 500 times before I ever shot a live round.

 

I will polish the bottom of the carrier/bolt like I have seen pics of on this board - and try shooting some high brass loads.

 

Will replacing the recoil spring with a lighter one lead to battering when I shoot heavy loads??

 

 

My malf is a total Failure to Eject. Sorry - no pics of the malf. This week I will try with some high brass and I will bring my camera. The round extracts just far enough to clear the chamber enough to jam against the barrel extension by the returning bolt/carrier. Since I didn't have even one full ejection - ALL of the rounds were fed into the chamber via manual manipulation of the bolt handle - and every round fed just fine into the chamber.

 

Thanks for all the help and suggestions gents!

 

t i

[VWBeamer 1]

Most FTE are caused by sticky carriers or lack of gas pressure. You say that it cycles easy by hand. If your gas ports are open, than that means you may have a leak.

 

Is your gas plug screwed in all the way? just thinking.

 

Another thought is to try the stock gas puck.

 

Don't give up. it will work and chances are you will learn a lot by fixing it. every Russian arm I have bought, I ended up having to fix.

 

I still love them.

Edited June 8, 2009 by VWBeamer

[PRISONSHANK 70]

did u try using the plug that came in the gun prior to installing the gunfixr plug?

might be worth a shot trying it out on 2.

i have a 3 porter as well and it'll run federal low brass on 1,

but the carrier wont even budge on 2 w/that winchester trash

[elvis christ 451]

Yeah, stick the original puck and plug back in, and try it that way. Everything else you did to the gun shouldn't have any effect on the ejection of shells. I have a 3 port gun, it runs everything I put in it on #1 setting, with the factory gas tube plug. Everything, from Winchester universal cheap ass value pack, Federal target/field to Remington slugs and wolf power buck shot.

Edited June 8, 2009 by elvis christ

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

Question: Will using the 25% reduced power recoil spring with high brass loads lead to excessive wear & tear, if not outright damage?

 

Answer: Yes, in time it'll definitely damage the rear trunnion, and possibly the bolt/bolt carrier too.

.........................

 

Ya need to use full power recoil spring on high brass.

[rightwingnut 0]

Were you using winchester universal ammo that you get from walmart in the silver & red 100 round box. If so, that is your problem.

 

Right there on Tromix's site it warns against using that specific ammo.

 

Both my new guns do the exact same thing as yours w/ that ammo.

 

There can be failures to extract where over-velocity rips up the rim of the hull or makes the extractor slip off etc. You are not getting enough energy into your carrier to even make a stove pipe.

 

Of course it is possible that you have a gas leak or an obstructed gas port or something, but it is proabably the ammo.

[tire iron 13]

I was shooting Federal loads.

 

Thanks

 

t i

[gunfrog 1]

I got a Saiga 12 (new) and as soon as I got it I "pulled the plug" to check the gas ports. I have three visible and accounted for.

 

So I converted it. (I didn't shoot it pre-conversion..)

 

KA Gas Puck

Gunfixr Gas Valve

Tapco FCG (I ground off the part that needed grinding)

Tromix front handguard (and adapter)

Tromix bolt on trigger guard

Tapco SAW grip

 

Left out the BHO. None of my AK's have it - and I want the same manual of arms - so I left it out.

 

 

Right now I am using a KVAR rear stock (Warsaw length) - I haven't decided which rear stock I want yet..

 

 

I have 1 factory 5 round mag, 4 Korean 5 round mags, 2 Surefire 8 round mags.

 

I bought Federal low brass rounds.

 

Went to range - and I got 55 Failures to Extract out of 55 rounds fired. I tried all of my mags and the result was exactly the same. I have the Gunfixr Gas Valve set on "3" (tried all settings though). Bolt handle would come back just far enough for the spent shell to clear the chamber and then the empty would be jammed up into the barrel extension - so it is not even stove-piping.

 

I triple checked the Gas Puck and Gunfixr valve - and the gas ports - everything is as it should be.

 

Any ideas???????

 

Thanks

 

t i

Hey Tire Iron, I also just did my first conversion , and have pretty much the same set up as you, 3 hole gun with the same mods you have made. And got the same results first time out to the range, with the the bird shot loads. The gun ran fine with OO and slugs. So I polished the bolt as advised on one of the treads here, used the lapping compound trick as mentioned in a reply on this thread and got the reduced power springs, but only replaced the front one and left the stiffer stock spring at the back of the recoils spring guide (behind sliding dust cover). Next time to the range.....,

 

SHAZAM! it ran the walmart bulk federal on the 2 setting and the winchester on the 3 setting both from the md 20 round drum and every other mag I had. I shot about 50 rounds and no sign of beating on the rear of gun or bolt carrier.

 

Will test this set up with some low recoil slugs on -1 gas setting and check for battering, if it is ok than it is a good set up for 3 gun matches, my purpose in in getting the gun.

 

Good luck , and let us know what happens.

 

best regards gunfrog

[tire iron 13]

Thanks for the information gunfrog! I will definitely do the polish and try her out with some high-brass loads. I'll give a report from the next range session (and pics if I get any malfs).

 

t i

[tire iron 13]

UPDATE 6-20-09

 

 

Went to the range today - and the short story is my Saiga will now shoot Walmart Federal bulk pack target loads!!

 

The long story iis as follows:

 

Since the last time I posted in this thread I polished the bottom of the bolt like pics I saw from Tromix. Lubed 'er up good and headed to the range.

 

I took about 250 rounds of various High Brass loads - plus 4 boxes of magnum steel shot loads (all 2 3/4") - the rest were #4 shot - around 300 total high brass loads.

 

I couldn't get anything to work reliably on theGunfxr plug set on +1, -1, and about 50% reliability on 2. So I moved the gas setting to 3 and got 100% functioning. It kicked out all the empties into a nice little area about 3~4 feet to the right and forward about 3~4 feet.I tried numerous times to crank it back down to 2, or -1 or +1 - but no dice - FTE's - wouldn't even clear the gun - but would stove pipe.

 

So I unscrewed the Gunfixr plug 360 degrees and tried it on the +1 and -1 setting and it would work about 60% of the time (I was out of magnum shells by this time) but got great functioning on 2 setting - and it kicked all the empties out into a nice pile about 2~3 feet away and 2~3 forward.

 

Ran through the rest of the rounds with zero hickups.

 

Then when I was out of the high brass loads I swtched to the bulk pack Walmart Federal loads.

 

Put the Gunfixer plug on 3 - inserted a mag and racked the bolt. First shot short stroked - FTE - I manually cycled the bolt to eject it and load the next one - and then it ran through 200 more bulk Federal rounds without a problem!!

 

I figure the Gunfixer plug is going too deep into my gas tube and actually restricting the flow of gas - but if I back it out 360 degrees - it works as advertized.

 

Thanks for all the help guys!!!!!!

 

tire iron