Single Shot, FTChamer Issue

[tover26 18]

So, I've been tweaking and enjoying the S12 and have become thoroughly addicted. My bank account is suffering, but I'm grateful to be employed. I've contacted CGW and Tac47 on this issue, but thought I'd post it here. Search turned up many things, but nothing like the question I'm about ponder.

 

- If the puck doesn't work, either because it's jammed or seized up, the gun will always fail to cycle... right?

 

My bore is just barely too small for a KA tappet and messing around with that was how I learned it's a bit too small. I'm back to the factory puck now, but it hasn't made any difference. No matter the gas setting on Gunfixer's Plug, or even factory one just tried, no matter the type of ammo or power of ammo or high/low brassiness of ammo, the shot ejects beautifully but completely fails to chamber.

 

I find myself wondering why. Maybe the puck isn't moving at all? But, I don't think so. For informational purposes, has anyone ever had that happen and what was it like? I've slowly followed the whole chambering process and before shooting today oiled up all the moving parts. With snap caps, it worked just fine with almost no noticeable friction. At the range... fail to chamber every time.

 

So, Maryland gets pretty humid. When I first got my S12, it was spring and not humid yet. It's worth asking... did the Russians make this gun to only work in non-humid places? I doubt it. Affects my wife's hair, but I can't imagine it affecting the S12 or mags.

[HillBilly2 9]

IF it ejects the empty fine the gas system is most likely working OK. Especially if you've cleaned it and verified the ports are open. If it fails to chamber it is most likely a magazine issue. What magazine are you using? Have you tried other mags? Does the next round get jammed and if so how or does it not get high enough to be picked up by the bolt?

 

btw, you should not oil the gas tube or puck, it makes carbon build up on them.

[corbin 621]

HB2 is right...

 

If it's ejecting, the trouble isn't the puck not moving. Just a wild guess, but are you using a buffer? If so, try taking it out and shooting again.

 

 

Corbin

 

P.S. I like your avatar. Looks Mandalorian.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Corbin

[tover26 18]

Thanks for the comments. I've tried using the factory 5 mag and a Surefire 10 mag. It doesn't seem to make a difference. Last night, I was following the slide and started filing anything that didn't seem very smooth. Maybe that'll help as I found some rough spots I hadn't spotted before. I also checked the mags and found some rough spots that I tried to smooth out as well. Following it slowly, it appears that the shells are either not elevating at all, or they are, but not with enough force to reset the trigger.

 

I'm beating my head on the wall because brand new, it didn't have any of these problems.

[hobbyshooter 59]

As for the humid comment. Us Floridians run our guns in >80% humidity 4 or 5 months out of the year and my guns run 100% all the time regardless of if it's winter or summer.

 

Since you are ejecting fine you need to take a close look at the magazines, and the feed angle. Try lightly polishing the bolt face so the shells rim can ride up smoothly.

 

Also work the follower through your magazines to make sure it isn't dragging & feeding slow (the bolt will rack shut before the next shell is pushed up by the follower to the lips).

 

Another thing that can happen is that the shells themselves can jam up in a mag body that is either too narrow, or too fat. If the mag body is too fat a 2-3/4" shells extraction ring can jam forward in the mag body guide.

Edited June 29, 2009 by hobbyshooter

[Bvamp 604]

you dont happen to have lube in the mags or anything like that that may slow the next round from coming up, do you?

 

if its happening across the board with mags, i suspect the issue to be somewhere else....

 

have you changed ammuntion types/brands recently?

 

have you checked the gas ports and madde sure they are all there and clean?

 

If you have noticed a huge amount of friction in the gas block pertaining to the puck, was it always like that? how well did you clean it out before you changed climates?

[csspecs 1,987]

How do you mean "fail to chamber" like round is hung up not even lined up with the barrel? Or its not closing all the way?

 

You could have crap stopping the bolt lugs from locking up, that happens in the last 3/4 of an inch of travel. Option two would be crap in the barrel keeping the round for seating all the way.

 

Aside from that you could have plastic wad melted into the gas ports. Had that happen once, just used a piece of wire to poke the plastic out of the ports.

 

And yeah the gas system should be dry, just wipe with an oil rag after brushing it out.

[Gunfixr 76]

If it's ejecting, then the gas system is working, as the bolt and carrier must go back past the rear of the magazine in order to eject. Therefore, it has gone back far enough to catch the next round on its way back forward.

 

"Completely fails to chamber" is kind of vague.

 

Do you find the bolt closed on an empty chamber?

Does the bolt hit the next round and stop, not dislodging it from the magazine?

Does the bolt push the round partway, but fail to fully seat the round in the chamber?

If so, how far does the round get? Does the nose of the round hit below the chamber, or get partway into the chamber?

 

If the bolt is closed on an empty chamber, then your mags aren't working, not pushing the rounds up. It could also be that your gun is overgassed, and the mags cannot keep up, but you said you tried all the settings, so that would've found that problem.

 

The bolt hitting the round and stopping could either be the gun or the mag, or both.

The round hitting below the chamber is probably a feed angle problem, which is usually the mag. Throating the chamber helps with this, but it will only go so far.

[tover26 18]

Good questions... to answer:

 

"Completely fails to chamber"... on 9 shots: all Remington 2 3/4" slugs... 3 managed recoil (1300 fps), 3 high velocity (1800 fps), 3 super high velocity (2000 fps)

- 9 ejected the shot shell

- on 9 the bolt returned and completely closed

- on 9 the trigger did not engage the firing pin

- on 5 of 9 there was a perfectly good next shell lined up and ready to fire

- on 4 of 9 there was a completely empty chamber

- I don't use a buffer. The S12 forum has firmly established that they are bad things in the S12

- I use Hoppe's #9 oil... the bottle with the syringe and dot a miniscule amount on the bolt where it rotates, the slides, and that's it. I put a tiny drop of CLP on Gunfixer's plug threads. No lubes and I've never put anything in the mags themselves.

- Since Gunfixer's plug locked up on the -1 setting, I put 3x3" magnum slugs through just to see if more power = more recoil = success... and while I felt the recoil, the next mag slugs chambered, but did not engage the firing pin.

- I've never had the bolt closing and catch on the next shell unless I was shooting managed recoil and hadn't adjusted the setting to 3.

 

After 9 shots, Gunfixer's plug was so hot I couldn't touch it with my fingers and had seized to the point I couldn't change settings even with tools. I've done this twice with the factory 5 rd mag and Surefire 10 rd mag. When I could get Gunfixer's plug out, after the high velocity stuff, the 3 ports were all fine. BTW, I like Gunfixer's plug. Before I had this problem, I got about 100 shots off and what a difference it made to be able to easily adjust on the fly.

 

I started poking around in the gun and the mags and filing off any sharp or jagged edges I found. When I first got my S12 I went through Search for all the "what parts do you polish" and did that. There are some sharp points on the bolt slides that wrap around the trigger and it's on these that I've focussed my attention. I'm still working on the overgassing theory based on my KA tappet being too large. Maybe that's what caused the sharp points here and there, but none of them are anything that seem like it would affect the S12's performance like this and this consistently.

 

Assuming it boils down to polishing sharp edges... none of that would account for the firing pin failing to engage. Since you've all been kind enough to put some brain cycles into this, do you any of you think this is actually 2 separate problems? I'm still working on the assumption that this is a single problem with 2 symptoms, where the symptoms are not chambering/engaging firing pin and not chambering but not engaging firing pin. Maybe I'm having 2 different problems.

Edited June 29, 2009 by EricinMaryland

[corbin 621]

By "not engaging the firing pin", do you mean that the hammer isn't able to hit it? I'm sorry if I'm the only one that's confused by that, but I just wanted to be sure I'm understanding what it's doing.

 

 

Corbin

 

P.S. I still like your avatar.

[G O B 3,516]

Eric, WHERE in Maryland - shoot me a PM if you are near Pee Gee Co. (Bowie)

[hobbyshooter 59]

To me "fails to engage the firing pin" makes me think the hammer didn't set on the hook/sear and followed the bolt down?

 

If so you could have a spring leg jumping behind the hammer. Or, your bolt isn't going back far enough.

 

Is this a converted gun, or the factory trigger group?

[tover26 18]

Yeah, I'm still a bit hazy on the parts jargon with guns, so please be patient with me. By not engaging the firing pin, I mean that after the shot shell ejects and the bolt moves all the way forward, if you pull the trigger... nothing happens. You can tell the tension is missing from successfully cocking.

 

It's just the sporter configuration. If I can't figure this out, I'm going to send this off to a pro to do the conversion and troubleshoot it for me. To quote someone else on the forum, I have ten thumbs and wouldn't be surprised if, in the course of dissassembling the gun to look at, clean, and learn, that when I reassembled it something was ever so slightly askew or maybe my dog ate something important.

 

I've started using 600 grit sandpaper to polish and smooth out anything I'm feeling with sharp edges or that is showing above normal wear. If I keep going at this rate, my entire freaking gun is going to be 100% stripped, polished, and mirrored. Maybe I could get Tac47 or someone to create a mirrored finish called "uber night camo" or something.

[hobbyshooter 59]

Yeah, I'm still a bit hazy on the parts jargon with guns, so please be patient with me. By not engaging the firing pin, I mean that after the shot shell ejects and the bolt moves all the way forward, if you pull the trigger... nothing happens. You can tell the tension is missing from successfully cocking.

 

It's just the sporter configuration. If I can't figure this out, I'm going to send this off to a pro to do the conversion and troubleshoot it for me. To quote someone else on the forum, I have ten thumbs and wouldn't be surprised if, in the course of dissassembling the gun to look at, clean, and learn, that when I reassembled it something was ever so slightly askew or maybe my dog ate something important.

 

I've started using 600 grit sandpaper to polish and smooth out anything I'm feeling with sharp edges or that is showing above normal wear. If I keep going at this rate, my entire freaking gun is going to be 100% stripped, polished, and mirrored. Maybe I could get Tac47 or someone to create a mirrored finish called "uber night camo" or something.

 

Sounds like the hammer spring leg is sliding in behind the hammer. This both prevents the bolt from traveling far enough back to grab the next round, and it prevents the hammer from reseting on the hook/disconnector (I improperly used the term sear above). You need to pick that spring leg out (it's the only braided spring in there), grab it with some needle nose pliers, and give it a strong clockwise twist. Then give it a outward bend so it's natural resting position is against the BHO plate.

[hobbyshooter 59]

Here's a past thread about it:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...l=hammer+spring

 

Next link is a pic with the bottom twisted multi-strand spring leg all worked inward:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?act=at...st&id=30587

 

 

Below is is at a flipped angle (problem leg is on top instead of bottom) but it shows how you want the spring leg to naturally rest. Work the trigger several times with the hammer uncocked, and the spring should always return to that position. Don't be afraid when bending the spring leg. It's TOUGH, and there are aftermarket replacement springs.

 

[corbin 621]

If you have a Tapco FCG, be aware that they had a recall a while back when it was discovered that the disconnector's spring hole was made too deep and because of that, the spring sat too deep and may cause malfunctions exactly like what you're describing.

 

 

CLICK ON PICTURE FOR LINK TO THREAD.

 

 

 

Corbin

[tover26 18]

Update...

 

Lots of sanding and trying different things including the trigger wire bending noted by Hobbyshooter; didn't look like it needed it but I figured why the hell not just do it?

 

The action will now move all but 1/4" to close. After shooting, if I lightly slap the bolt forward, it'll chamber and reset the trigger. If you follow your action with a shotshell into the breach, there's a point where the bolt aligns with those metal prongs (term check on aisle 4...). The bolt rotates up and locks the chamber and right before this movement is where there's just barely enough friction that, between the chambering of the next shell from the magazine and whatever is causing the friction right before locking, that it just stops and doesn't have enough oomph! to close the final distance and reset the trigger.

 

I'm guessing that when I shot this after putting the KA tappet in my too-small gas tube, that the gun overgassed and slammed the hell out of the bolt, rail, slides, and everything else.

Edited July 4, 2009 by EricinMaryland

[Etek 32]

I doubt you overgassed it causing your issues.

Lemme ask you this, if you let the bolt carrier fly forward does the bolt lock without a shell in the chamber?

How about WITH a shell in the chamber?

 

You may have more than one issue so let's work on one thing at a time.

 

Where are you in Md. ? I'm in southern A.A. county.

 

PM me OK?

Edited July 4, 2009 by Etek

[Etek 32]

OK I got it. Take the puck out and see if the gun cycles manually. If so the puck is jammed.

[tover26 18]

Yeah, it sticks with and without the shotshell. OEM puck is moving around... I can hear it moving freely in the tube.

 

PM sent. Any advice appreciated.

[hobbyshooter 59]

Yeah, it sticks with and without the shotshell. OEM puck is moving around... I can hear it moving freely in the tube.

 

PM sent. Any advice appreciated.

 

Is the extractor sliding into the channel freely?

[corbin 621]

+1 on the extractor question. It's natural for there to be a little friction in the last 1/4" or so of carrier travel. That's when the bolt is turning to lock in place and when the extractor has to slide over the barrel extension. I'm not sure if you're doingthis, but "riding" the carrier forward by hand isn't how you should rack these Saigas. Pull the handle back and let it go. It'll take it just fine.

 

If there's any burrs on the bolt's cams or in the corresponding notches they turn into, I imagine that could cause it problems. Check that to see if there's anything. There's a pin in the bolt head that goes in at one of the cams. Be sure it's pushed in all the way or that could cause issues too.

 

 

Hope this helps

 

 

Corbin

 

 

 

 

Is the extractor sliding into the channel freely?

[hobbyshooter 59]

From the sounds of it you might want to talk to CADIZ about an under warranty inspection.

[tover26 18]

Thanks for the comments. Some progress... at range last night, there was not a single fail to chamber. Each shot chambered. The trigger did not reset on any of the shots though. So the polishing and tweaks suggested on this thread have worked. Now it's just the damn trigger mechanism.

 

I had an email exchange with CGW and they sound completely backlogged. If I can't figure this out myself, I'll probably try a local gunsmith. I've found several that are very good with AKs. Barring all else, I'm totally vested in the Saiga and ordered a 2nd converted one from Tac47. When that shows up, I'll at least be able to still enjoy things while trouble-shooting my 1st. If the gunsmith can't get it working, I'm thinking I'll do a conversion by myself.

[hobbyshooter 59]

Thanks for the comments. Some progress... at range last night, there was not a single fail to chamber. Each shot chambered. The trigger did not reset on any of the shots though. So the polishing and tweaks suggested on this thread have worked. Now it's just the damn trigger mechanism.

 

I had an email exchange with CGW and they sound completely backlogged. If I can't figure this out myself, I'll probably try a local gunsmith. I've found several that are very good with AKs. Barring all else, I'm totally vested in the Saiga and ordered a 2nd converted one from Tac47. When that shows up, I'll at least be able to still enjoy things while trouble-shooting my 1st. If the gunsmith can't get it working, I'm thinking I'll do a conversion by myself.

 

Glad to hear you are making progress. have you popped the cover off when the trigger is stuck yet to inspect the position of the spring legs and the disconnector? You might be able to simply lightly hand polish the disconnector and its mating surface on the hammer. Or maybe your trigger return spring is too weak.

 

It sounds to me that doing a conversion on this gun would remove/replace the problem parts (trigger, trigger return spring, disconnector). Maybe that's what you should focus on. Start buying your conversion parts since it would be easier than trying to reassemble with the factory over-crowded pile.

[tover26 18]

Thanks Hobby. It's just frustrating because it was working so well before I messed around with the tappet. I look forward to guru status when things like this don't phaze me as much as they do right now. With so many things going on, it's funny to be sitting in a meeting for work and people are going on and on blah blah blah and I'm thinking, "This gun only has like what 10 moving parts? What the F$!#%! is NOT working, and how do I make sure this doesn't happen when it gets fixed?"

 

Smile and nod, add some comments to the meeting, and go back to things I've read here in other threads that might be applicable.

[hobbyshooter 59]

Thanks Hobby. It's just frustrating because it was working so well before I messed around with the tappet. I look forward to guru status when things like this don't phaze me as much as they do right now.

well if you do buy a second gun that will take a lot of the edge off of there being an issue with this one. I'm no guru, but if a trigger reset is your only issue I'd say it's time to simplify. Convert it!

[tover26 18]

Update... gun back from local gunsmith - finally.

 

Here's what happened:

• There was enough over-gassing with the KA tappet that it banged up my rails and the areas around the trunion and also where the bolt head rotates to lock into the trunion. So lots of polishing. I had already started that, but it was way more than I had done.
  
• The gun was "excessively dry" as the smith put it.
  
• The disconnector spring... not sure where that is... had come disconnected.
  
• The bolt spring... from comments by the smith, my bolt spring has relaxed already or something.
  

 

So, polish, way more grease (I had been using oil), tweaking the disconnector spring, and putting in a stiffer bolt spring and the gun shoots just fine now.

[Reverendfranz 160]

Glad to hear it. sounds like you have all the kinks worked out.

Hope thats the last of the trouble it gives you.

[clifton 354]

Measure the KA tappet, KA stand behind his product...If out of spec we will give you a new one.