Fail to Eject

[Ackbar00 0]

Yes, I know it is the new guy asking the same damn question all over again, but I have been searching on this topic for two days and I just dont know anymore. So here it goes.

 

Got my Saiga 12 a week ago. It was used and came with a 12 (surefire) and 5 (factory) round clip and a Surefire tatical forearm. I used Federal Multi-purpose load (Wal-Mart Stuff) and put 50 rounds through it without a single FTE on both mags. I ordered a Tapco stock for it and put that on it a few days ago. I pulled the upper cover off and pulled the spring as the instructions said to do. Got it installed and put back together no problem. So I take it back out and every single round was an FTE. Would pretty much be lodged in the bolt. (I can get a picture if someone really wants to see it) So I reseached last night on the forum and saw about the gas ports being blocked. So I feild stipped the gun and sure enough, all 3 ports looked like they were clogged. So I cleaned them out with a paper clip and put it back together. Today, I bring the gun back out and it does the same thing on every single round. I do some more research about the Gas Plug and read a thread on the proper way to do it. I screwed it all the way down and then backed it back up to #1 and then up to #2. This from my understanding is what I should be on for this type of ammo. Took it back out and same deal again. I tried setting it back to #1 and the round wont jam, but it wont even eject from the chamber. I tried taking past #2 to like +1 and +2 and same shit. For giggles, I had some Federal 00 buckshot I thought I would try. Did the same thing.

 

Now, I have not fully cleaned the gun and oiled it yet. That is my next step. From other parts of my reading here, looked like a new Gas piston, plug and low recoil spring my be after that, but id hate to dump another $100 into it if I did not have to. Just seems weird that it fired no issues before I took it apart to put the Tapco on. Any ideas??!!

 

Stuff I was reading.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=42280

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=42488

Edited August 2, 2009 by Ackbar00

[gaucho1 0]

You may want to check that the recoil spring guide is fully seated in the rear notch.

 

Do you feel the bolt -carrier is moving smoothly through its entire range of motion?

 

What happens when you single load and fire without a magazine?

 

Because you have cleared and cleaned everything,and have tried different settings as

a last resort I would put the factory stock back on and try it with the original load.

 

The more experienced hands will probably have other suggestions,but the above may help.

 

Good luck.

 

[mscottrogers 56]

yes try cycling rounds from the mag by hand and check for drag. When you field stripped it did you remove the gas piston, the actual plug. With all that crap clogging the holes the same crap may be clogged around the piston. when you were firing it that stuff which is carbon and plastic from the wads is semi molten and when you stop firing it it hardens. your piston should move freely in the gas chamber.

[Ackbar00 0]

You may want to check that the recoil spring guide is fully seated in the rear notch.

 

1. Do you feel the bolt -carrier is moving smoothly through its entire range of motion?

 

2. What happens when you single load and fire without a magazine?

 

Because you have cleared and cleaned everything,and have tried different settings as

a last resort I would put the factory stock back on and try it with the original load.

 

The more experienced hands will probably have other suggestions,but the above may help.

 

Good luck.

 

 

 

1. Yes. Nothing "feels" different

2. It will still FTE.

 

And I will check the spring.

[gaucho1 0]

Did you check the gas puck for ease of motion?Clean the piston and gas tube.

 

When you hand cycle,is the extractor pull the rnds. out with a positive feel?

 

Open the cover and hand cycle single rnds slowly.Watch for anything that seems jerky or pops the rnd. out of the extractor.Watch when it hits the ejector.

 

Try firing it single with the cover off.(Somewhat last resort)

[rogertc1 4]

At least you haven't been flamed like I was for bring up problems with the new Saiga 12 up. (Your 2nd link).

 

I sent mine in for repairs. I tried $ springs & $ pucks but nothing seemed to work. This may be your next option.

Edited August 3, 2009 by rogertc1

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Or you can put a full choke on it and I bet that fixes the problem. I'll have some for sale later this week I hope.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=42473

 

You should only change out the recoil spring as a last resort. A weak recoil spring will sometimes allow the dustcover to fly off and hit you in the face if you shoot any heavy loads with it...

[Bridis 319]

But I'm sure that most people keep their recoil spring and could easily change it out when they plan to shoot heavier loads.

[Ackbar00 0]

I checked the spring tonight. Pretty much only fits in there one way, so it does not look like that is it. When the problem first happened, all I had done was remove the top cover and pull the spring. Seems like that WOULD be the issue, but Ill be damned if I can find it. Everything I have been reading has said an upgraded gas piston and plug would help. Would it?

 

Cobra 76 two - What would a choke do in my case? I guess I am not clear on what it would provide. Dont get me wrong, I had planned on getting one as I thought they looked pretty cool.

[gpqueen 545]

I would make sure the piston is not clogged up and moves freely. The gas plug will direct the gas more effectively.

The reduced recoil springs are designed exactly for the ammo you are shooting to help cycle reliably. I have 3000 rounds on one gun with no problems.

I would not use any 3" shells with it because it may damage the gun, but they are not designed for that.

The factory recoil spring can be put back on in a few seconds for the heavy stuff.

Greg

[TheDarkHorse 216]

What state do you live in? There may be an experienced member who lives close to you that might be willing to meet you and take a look at your gun.

 

Just a thought.

[Ackbar00 0]

I could hear the gas pistion moving around in there, I guess that it was in there. I did get my new gas puck and plug and it made no difference. I even got some different ammo, Winchester (Still Wal-Mart stuff). No dice. I did order the smaller spring so we will see how that goes.

[VanKiller 322]

This sure sounds like the same warranty message I was getting from the guy who swapped his 308 top cover with his 12 ga....................."Damn gun worked fine until I cleaned it".....

 

That stock should not have made a difference, unless the forward screw is not down all the way.

 

Check everything you did in your cleaning.......

 

If the weapon was working before you cleaned it...it should work with the same combination of parts..

 

Just throwing more parts at it is akin to changing brake shoes because the clutch is out on the car......

 

At least I didn't see a 308 in your collection list........

 

Good luck........

[HillBilly2 9]

I don't have any idea of what the problem is, but the fact that it ran 50 rounds of wally's Federal without an issue before changing the stock jumps out. I don't think this is a gas issue or it would have had problems with the first rounds. Look it over again, looking for anything that may be binding, or out of place. Verify the carrier is in the rails properly, that the fcg spring is seating properly. Remove the recoil spring again and cycle the bolt, looking for any interference. If you don't find anything, change the stock back and try it again.

 

This might be a problem of the tapco stock being shorter and not seating against your shoulder as well. Try a few rounds making sure to pull it back firmly into your shoulder before firing.

 

I have no other ideas.

[Ackbar00 0]

Ok, still does not work. I got the low brass spring and tried it again. Still does not work. I tried both clips, both ammos and just about every setting possible on the gas plug. I mean, this is just plain frustrating. I saw that Mike Davidson lives in Dayton, I am going to see if he can take a look at it. If anyone else has some other ideas, I am all ears.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Ackbar00

[gaucho1 0]

Did you try putting original stock back on?

Cycling rnds. by hand?

 

The guys who are attempting to help you need specific replies as opposed to general statements.

 

Throwing parts at the problem without doing simple and free checks will lead to frustration and poverty.

 

Best of luck

[Ackbar00 0]

I have not put the original stock back on. The forward screw looks like it is all the way down as the spring fits back in there with no issues.

 

I can cycle rounds by hand and with a spent round, I can get it to eject.

 

I did try a hotter load today with this soft spring and it did seem cycle the round. The second/third round though was a Federal round and after the second one fired it did not cycle it.

[zenmetsu 17]

I have not put the original stock back on. The forward screw looks like it is all the way down as the spring fits back in there with no issues.

 

I can cycle rounds by hand and with a spent round, I can get it to eject.

 

I did try a hotter load today with this soft spring and it did seem cycle the round. The second/third round though was a Federal round and after the second one fired it did not cycle it.

 

Short of taking it in to be looked at, what can we do?

 

I guess we could perform fault tree analysis and start whacking off branches to find the root cause, right?

 

These are the only things that I can come up with for a Failure-to-eject situation:

 

1) Gas system failure
 a. not enough gas working against piston
i.   gas ports leading to bore are clogged
ii.  not enough gas ports, aka, vodka special
iii. loads are too light
iv.  a leak in the gas block is venting gas instead of operating the action
 b. gas piston not transferring enough energy to the bolt carrier
i.   puck is binding and significant energy losses are incurred during operation
ii.  bolt carrier operating rod not far enough forward  
2) Excessive energy losses with bolt carrier movement
 a. bent or otherwise defective rails
 b. physical blockage
i.   trigger group issue
ii.  recoil buffer complications
iii. integrated dust cover on spring is binding to something during travel
iv.  bolt movement/rotation in carrier grooves impaired
 c. spring failure
i.   spring not properly seated
ii.  spring too stiff
iii. some obstruction in spring-well on bolt carrier is pre-compressing spring, adding resistance
3) Ejector failure
 a. ejector is bent, impairing bolt travel
 b. ejector is defective/short/etc and is not ejecting rounds
4) Ejection path obstructed
 a. improper or mis-aligned dust cover not allowing for spent round to leave firearm
 b. scope rail or other accessory is blocking ejection path
5) Excessive rearward acceleration of firearm relative to bolt carrier movement
 a. stock is allowing too much rearward movement
 b. poor firing posture
6) Zombies

 

 

I am no expert on the Saiga-12 since I have not had mine for very long, but I am familiar with the AK action. I would be surprised if the root cause falls outside of this list. Try going through this list systematically and make sure that there is a zero % probability of a listed failure before you cross it off.

 

Since your gun previously worked, 1-a-ii can be ruled out assuming that SOMEHOW you did not accidentally swap guns with someone else

2-b-ii can be ruled out if you are not using a recoil buffer.

2-c-ii can be ruled out if you are positive that you are using the same spring as before.

5-b can be ruled out assuming that you are shouldering the gun the same way.

 

You can never rule out 6.

 

Hopefully this helps. Others are welcome to jump in if there are any glaring omissions in my list. Good luck with fixing your problem.

 

 

*edited to put my list within code tags so that the formatting would not get jacked up*

Edited August 16, 2009 by zenmetsu

[Ackbar00 0]

Thanks man, I will go through that list here shortly. I know you guys are doing all you can to help, just wanted to try as much as I could myself before taking it to a gun shop.

 

Update. Put the original stock back on. Same thing. Put the factory plug and piston back in and tried about every setting. Same thing. Fired it with the cover off just to see if anything was binding or not. Same thing. No one saw anything out of the ordinary (Had people watching as I fired it) It really looks like a gas issue as it looked like it just was not pushing it back far enough to eject the spent round. And that was with the light spring as well.

 

 

I added my answers here:

1) Gas system failure

a. not enough gas working against piston

i. gas ports leading to bore are clogged - Checked, they are still clean.

ii. not enough gas ports, aka, vodka special - I have three

iii. loads are too light - This is true, but others can shoot the same load without issues, so it would stand to believe I could as well.

 

iv. a leak in the gas block is venting gas instead of operating the action - possible, any way to test this myself?

 

b. gas piston not transferring enough energy to the bolt carrier

i. puck is binding and significant energy losses are incurred during operation - anyway to tell? I can hear it banging around in there.

 

ii. bolt carrier operating rod not far enough forward - Everything seems to be seating properly.

[Red Jacket 329]

just a thought , check your hammer spring's , the right side in particular . There's not much room for it against the BHO lever and it can ride over and put the disconnector in a bind . I've seen this cause exactly what you decribe . With the fcg in a bind , it doesn't want to let the carrier ride freely over it . good luck with it . Will

[zenmetsu 17]

Of course, there is the BIG one that I left out for gas system failure... improperly installed plug. Is it in the correct position? Did you screw it all the way down and then back it out to the number 2 position?

[VWBeamer 1]

Try this , it sounds stupid and I'll get flamed by some know it all, but hold the butt against a tree or some other solid object when you fire.

 

I know it gas operated, should not make a difference, but it does.

[Ackbar00 0]

Try this , it sounds stupid and I'll get flamed by some know it all, but hold the butt against a tree or some other solid object when you fire.

 

I know it gas operated, should not make a difference, but it does.

 

Well, I think we have a winner. I was able to get ahold of Mike Davidson from MD arms and he was kind enough to come take a look at my gun. While there, I was from the hip shooting it to show him what it was doing. First thing he suggested was put it on my shoulder and try it. Bingo, started working again (For the most part). He broke down my gun and said that even though I got it used, it looked pretty new and I should polish it a bit. He brought over one of his full auto conversions and showed me what I needed to do.

 

http://usera.ImageCave.com/GTTurbo88/DSC00644.JPG

 

After the Tapco install, all I had been doing to test fire it was just shoot from the hip. When the first FTE started to happen, rest of my shots were all from the hip. Guess I know better now. So we tried a few different mags on my gun. Another 12 rounder, a double stack, and one of his drums and a few FTE's aside, I think we are getting closer to the ballpark. Of course, the best part was, he let me shoot the full auto. Ummm, my god that was fun

 

 

So, I will get that stuff polished up and report back here. Thanks for the help everyone!

[gkcf 8]

[KROSS FA 14]

Try this , it sounds stupid and I'll get flamed by some know it all, but hold the butt against a tree or some other solid object when you fire.

 

I know it gas operated, should not make a difference, but it does.

 

Well, I think we have a winner. I was able to get ahold of Mike Davidson from MD arms and he was kind enough to come take a look at my gun. While there, I was from the hip shooting it to show him what it was doing. First thing he suggested was put it on my shoulder and try it. Bingo, started working again (For the most part). He broke down my gun and said that even though I got it used, it looked pretty new and I should polish it a bit. He brought over one of his full auto conversions and showed me what I needed to do.

 

http://usera.ImageCave.com/GTTurbo88/DSC00644.JPG

 

After the Tapco install, all I had been doing to test fire it was just shoot from the hip. When the first FTE started to happen, rest of my shots were all from the hip. Guess I know better now. So we tried a few different mags on my gun. Another 12 rounder, a double stack, and one of his drums and a few FTE's aside, I think we are getting closer to the ballpark. Of course, the best part was, he let me shoot the full auto. Ummm, my god that was fun

 

 

So, I will get that stuff polished up and report back here. Thanks for the help everyone!

 

Great to hear you got things worked out! Mike is a cool guy with some terrific products. Thanks for the video, looks like yall had a lot of fun

 

Zach

KROSS FA

[zenmetsu 17]

5) Excessive rearward acceleration of firearm relative to bolt carrier movement
 a. stock is allowing too much rearward movement
 b. poor firing posture

 

I had this on my list.

 

Glad you two got it figured out. I polished up my bolt carrier and polished a few faces of the bolt and oh man does it cycle better now. I am sure that after you get it polished up and broken in, you will fall in love with it.

 

BTW, way to lean into that full auto. Show the gun who's boss

[ronw 0]

Try this , it sounds stupid and I'll get flamed by some know it all, but hold the butt against a tree or some other solid object when you fire.

 

I know it gas operated, should not make a difference, but it does.

 

Well, I think we have a winner. I was able to get ahold of Mike Davidson from MD arms and he was kind enough to come take a look at my gun. While there, I was from the hip shooting it to show him what it was doing. First thing he suggested was put it on my shoulder and try it. Bingo, started working again (For the most part). He broke down my gun and said that even though I got it used, it looked pretty new and I should polish it a bit. He brought over one of his full auto conversions and showed me what I needed to do.

 

http://usera.ImageCave.com/GTTurbo88/DSC00644.JPG

 

After the Tapco install, all I had been doing to test fire it was just shoot from the hip. When the first FTE started to happen, rest of my shots were all from the hip. Guess I know better now. So we tried a few different mags on my gun. Another 12 rounder, a double stack, and one of his drums and a few FTE's aside, I think we are getting closer to the ballpark. Of course, the best part was, he let me shoot the full auto. Ummm, my god that was fun

 

 

So, I will get that stuff polished up and report back here. Thanks for the help everyone!

 

I read this earlier today. And have to ask. What do you mean by double stack? A magazine?

[Bvamp 604]

hey Mike - way to go! \

 

 

still have the shit eating grin, huh?

[ronw 0]

Can anyone tell me what was meant by "double stack" typed above? Is there a double stack mag for the saiga-12?

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

That quote is causing quite a stir....

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry399894

 

Was it a mistake or did you actually try a doublestack S-12 mag?

 

 

Also..sorry I never got back to you about the choke adapter. I missed your question somehow. Adding a full choke to an S-12 gives it much better back pressure, making it cycle better.

 

As far as my comment on the recoil spring replacement....I was just trying to inform those who don't know any better and might make the same mistake someone else I know did, when he replaced his spring, then shot slugs with it. He got a cut above his eye. I believe that warrants giving people fair warning...don't you?It's quite obvious you can switch the spring back easily. It still needs to be said though. There are some people on here that don't have the common sense to see that.