U.S. Army Agrees That The M-4 Sucks

[Will486 7]

Enemy engages US troops with IEDs, VBIEDs, and EFPs. Look at reports of us troops killed by explosions vs small arms fire. The Enemy doesn't really use the AK much ether and when they do it is easy for US troops to locate and kill them.

 

Too true. Theyd have to be suicidal to fight us fairly.. But still. On the other hand I doubt any deployed operator hears an AK rattling off rounds and thinks first that it's friendly.

[loki0629 55]

The AK certainly has a noticeably different report than the AR. One that would undoubtedly alert nearby friendlies to a false hostile contact. And given the army/marine's recent tendency to simply call in air support on enemy positions, I'd be hesitant to say the least to pick up an AK and start firing.

 

The AK does have a different noise signature than an AR, but an AK being fired does not mean hostile contact. An AK being fired at YOU is defined as hostile contact and you react appropriately. If another group (fire team, squad, platoon) is being engaged by hostile fire, you'll hear it on the radio and again, you react appropriately.

 

Private military contractors (PMC's) use AK's, as well as RPG's. We almost shot up a bunch of Triple Canopy guys shooting from a rooftop. If they hadn't come up on our tac net and identified themselves, they would have been dead as doornails. Aegis is another PMC that uses both the M4 and the AK. These PMC's also did a lot of range shooting with their weapons inside our compound so we constantly heard AK fire within our walls.

 

There are a hell of a lot of "Yipppeee" shooters in the Arab world. This is how they celebrate a joyous occasion, by ripping off a mag into the air. So if you hear gunfire, you go check it out. You don't call in an air strike just because you hear an AK.

[superA 289]

There are a hell of a lot of "Yipppeee" shooters in the Arab world. This is how they celebrate a joyous occasion, by ripping off a mag into the air. So if you hear gunfire, you go check it out. You don't call in an air strike just because you hear an AK.

 

 

 

Sounds like we all have something in common with the Arabs.

[BpS12 512]

IIRC, on all reports, the M4 has always last in the testing. The differance is by how much and the cost being the only plus. I've never like the system, and if reliabilty is in question, I'd rather not take my chances. For those that like/use the M4/16, good luck to you. I honestly wish you the best, but I'd rather see you with something better.

[Will486 7]

The AK does have a different noise signature than an AR, but an AK being fired does not mean hostile contact. An AK being fired at YOU is defined as hostile contact and you react appropriately. If another group (fire team, squad, platoon) is being engaged by hostile fire, you'll hear it on the radio and again, you react appropriately.

 

Private military contractors (PMC's) use AK's, as well as RPG's. We almost shot up a bunch of Triple Canopy guys shooting from a rooftop. If they hadn't come up on our tac net and identified themselves, they would have been dead as doornails. Aegis is another PMC that uses both the M4 and the AK. These PMC's also did a lot of range shooting with their weapons inside our compound so we constantly heard AK fire within our walls.

 

There are a hell of a lot of "Yipppeee" shooters in the Arab world. This is how they celebrate a joyous occasion, by ripping off a mag into the air. So if you hear gunfire, you go check it out. You don't call in an air strike just because you hear an AK.

 

I hadnt considered that "yipppeee" celebratory circumstance. But yeah, come to think of it, valid point, valid point. "when you put it that way..." it is ridiculous to call in air support just cause you hear shots.. hurm. i seem to be wrong here. BUT id still hesitate to even take the risk of wrongly identifying myself as a hostile. As you said yourself, you almost lit up some friendlies because they carried AKs. If ever contracted out and deployed, no question about it, I'd carry some highly modified piston-driven AR. Just as reliable, and clearly friendly.

[loki0629 55]

will486,

Your post was very similar to posts other forum members had made and it was simply the nearest one for me to use as an example. I know I quoted you but it wasn't personal. At any rate, if you find yourself in a situation where you need a weapon, you're not really going to care about the type of weapon. If you end up signing on with a PMC, you'll end up using whatever they issue you from their company armory.

[usmc_mwroseberry 0]

Can't they just give the Army the green light to start grabbing up AKs from dead insurgents? That doesn't cost the Army a penny!

 

I thought they already did this on occasion.

 

I swear I remember reading that US troops routinely picked up AK's to use for a number of different reasons. One being that the sound of an AK being fired didn't alert enemy troops to US soldiers' presence, as the M16 and AK sound totally different.

 

Am I imagining that I read this? Or is this something that is being done, just not necessarily "green lighted" by higher-ups?

 

 

I did it, got in trouble and kept doing it..... This is the reason I'm alive and also the reason I don't have a combat action ribbon to this day...... Note to self should have not pissed of my 1stSGT....

 

Semper Fi

Merritt

SGT USMC vet.

[RS12 7]

I've been to Iraq and used both the M16A2 and the M4 and I don't like either one. Yes, it is accurate. Yes, it is light. But using standard issue ball ammunition it doesn't provide very good penetration of light to medium cover. And there is lots of cover in an urban environment. Plus, generations of GI's have beat the shit out of their rifles and they malfunction regularly because of it. Nothing is Joe proof and the M16 family of rifles is just too finicky for the wars we fight and the amount of abuse they take. I cleaned my M16 daily and lubed sparingly and it STILL jammed constantly.

 

Most of it was probably magazine related but shit man, get me a rifle that will WORK! I had a bolt-override in the middle of a firefight and about shit my pants. I had to take cover and wrestle the round out with my gerber. That's unsatisfactory. When I got out I went with the " right arm of the free world" and have never looked back. I like my FAL far better than the M16, I like the round (7.62x51) far better too. You can definitley shoot through some light to medium cover with this puppy. Scrap the M-16, get a real working rifle and a better round and let our soldiers fight the way we are trained and our wars will swiftly be over. That's my 2 cents.

[Wolverine 10,360]

I've been to Iraq and used both the M16A2 and the M4 and I don't like either one. Yes, it is accurate. Yes, it is light. But using standard issue ball ammunition it doesn't provide very good penetration of light to medium cover. And there is lots of cover in an urban environment. Plus, generations of GI's have beat the shit out of their rifles and they malfunction regularly because of it. Nothing is Joe proof and the M16 family of rifles is just too finicky for the wars we fight and the amount of abuse they take. I cleaned my M16 daily and lubed sparingly and it STILL jammed constantly.

 

Most of it was probably magazine related but shit man, get me a rifle that will WORK! I had a bolt-override in the middle of a firefight and about shit my pants. I had to take cover and wrestle the round out with my gerber. That's unsatisfactory. When I got out I went with the " right arm of the free world" and have never looked back. I like my FAL far better than the M16, I like the round (7.62x51) far better too. You can definitley shoot through some light to medium cover with this puppy. Scrap the M-16, get a real working rifle and a better round and let our soldiers fight the way we are trained and our wars will swiftly be over. That's my 2 cents.

 

RS12,

 

Thanks for the insight and opinion. I am inclined to agree with your assessment.

 

Where are you in MI?

[mgconnor13 206]

Every weapon jams. Some jam less then others. Test did have some irregulatities to it. Over all jams were a small percentage of the total rounds fired. There really isn't a weapon out there thats work the cost to switch.

[Wolverine 10,360]

Every weapon jams. Some jam less then others. Test did have some irregulatities to it. Over all jams were a small percentage of the total rounds fired. There really isn't a weapon out there thats work the cost to switch.

 

Rusty, maybe on the jamming question. But the AR platform has a reputation for being finicky. I would agree the military is not inclined to switch based on cost alone. But there is no doubt in my mind the .308 is a superior battle round over the .223. The .223 is another compromise based upon round count and weight.

[crackback 135]

 

 

I can recognize Dr. Fackler's work anywhere, NICE!

[Krom 36]

Also something else that has not really been hit on is how the AR family responds to the heat from many rounds being fired in rapid succession.

 

I'm pretty sure that this was exposed as one of the main reasons that an Army outpost got overrun recently in Afghanistan.

 

I understand that assault weapons are not made for sustained rapid fire but even as few as a couple of hundred rounds can lock up an AR hard. That is unacceptable. We all know that many hundreds of rounds can be fired from an AK on full auto and the thing might be on fire but WILL STILL FIRE.

[Alexc.s. 25]

I understand that assault weapons are not made for sustained rapid fire but even as few as a couple of hundred rounds can lock up an AR hard. That is unacceptable. We all know that many hundreds of rounds can be fired from an AK on full auto and the thing might be on fire but WILL STILL FIRE.

 

Like this...

[mgconnor13 206]

reason 5.56 was adopted in the first place was so soilders could carry more ammo. Sucks to be out humping belts of ammo for the 240. Be better to switch to something bigger the 5.56 but smaller then 7.62x51. 7.62x39mm is a good intermediate round. Rather not have to hump a battle rifle unless I'm somewhere that I need a battle rifle. Love my FAL but no way I would try carrying 300+ rounds in full kit during a running gun battle. It's pretty easy to carry 300+ rounds of 5.56 in full kit. M4/M16 is here to stay till some one makes a rifle that never jams, never over heats, use super powerful but very light ammo and costs less then $1000 a piece. Probably use M16s till phasers or plasma rifle go into mass production lol

[KrisFox 69]

Every weapon jams. Some jam less then others. Test did have some irregulatities to it. Over all jams were a small percentage of the total rounds fired. There really isn't a weapon out there thats work the cost to switch.

 

Rusty, maybe on the jamming question. But the AR platform has a reputation for being finicky. I would agree the military is not inclined to switch based on cost alone. But there is no doubt in my mind the .308 is a superior battle round over the .223. The .223 is another compromise based upon round count and weight.

 

 

The AR/M-16 systems "reputation for being finicky: is a false one.

 

When the first M16's were used in Vietnam they were originally designed by Armalite and produced by Colt with the understanding that the military would use a specific powder and ammunition.

 

"The root cause of the jamming issues turned out to be a problem with the powder for the ammunition. In 1964 when the Army was informed that DuPont could not mass-produce the nitrocellulose-based powder to the specifications demanded by the M16, the Olin Mathieson Company provided a high-performance ball propellant of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin. While the Olin WC 846 powder was capable of firing an M16 5.56 mm round at the desired 3,300 ft. per second, it had the unintended consequence of increasing the automatic rate of fire from 850 to 1000 rounds per minute. This would leave behind dirty residue and making the M16 more likely to jam. The problem was resolved by fitting the M16 with a buffer system, slowing the rate of fire back down to 650 to 850 rounds per minute and outfitting all newly produced M16's with a chromium-plated chamber."

 

The military learned the hard way, by the end of the conflict in Vietnam the problems with the M16 had been fixed by training and the issuance of the famous "Sweet 16" cleaning manual and cleaning kits.

 

The military later changed back to the cleaner ball powder, the M16 was redesigned as the M16A2 and the rest is history.

 

 

 

 

 

 

One factor EVERYONE leaves out.

 

If you have a good unit armorer your weapons will ALWAYS run. If you have a malfunction you tell the armorer and he will fix the weapon, replace mags, replace the entire weapon whatever is needed, your chain of command (if it's worth a shit) will not send you on missions with an unreliable weapon.

 

If you have a shitty unit armorer guess what? Your weapons are going to run like shit. He won't be able to fix the problem or he will be to lazy and ignore it. If this is the case your supposed to tell your Platoon Sergent, who tells the First Sergent, who tells the Sergent Major who gos down to the unit arms room and "Fixes" the armorer, often by installing a "Replacement".

 

 

 

Every time someone posts "In combat my weapon failed me!!! The M4 is a POS!!!"

 

I reply, "Did you notify your chain of command? Tell your armorer so he could fix it? Do you have a good armorer? Are there other weapons in your unit that malfunction regularly? What unit are/were you in? What was your armorers name?"

 

Guess what most of the time the guy posting admits to being full of shit OR failed to tell ANYONE but the internet that he was having problems with his issued weapon or more often then not has never been in the military and is posing.

 

 

 

Hand me a factory, DPMS, Olympic, or even a Vulcan/Hesse and I can make it run like a top WITHOUT replacing parts. Add feed ramps, properly steak gas keys, check gas seal of gas block etc.

 

 

 

Shitty/Cheep AR-15 are like factory Saigas. Sure out of the box they work fine for the most part, but if you want to see the full potential of the weapon your going to have to apply some elbow grease, cash, or have a buddy "in the know" give it a conversion or at least a "fluff and buff".

 

 

 

A more effective round like 6.8spc or 6mm/5.56 or even just MK262 would make a huge difference. However that will never change unless every NATO country is willing to designate a new NATO round. Tell that time it looks like all these rounds are in similar ballparks of each other.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

Hand me a factory, DPMS, Olympic, or even a Vulcan/Hesse and I can make it run like a top WITHOUT replacing parts. Add feed ramps, properly steak gas keys, check gas seal of gas block etc.

 

 

 

Shitty/Cheep AR-15 are like factory Saigas. Sure out of the box they work fine for the most part, but if you want to see the full potential of the weapon your going to have to apply some elbow grease, cash, or have a buddy "in the know" give it a conversion or at least a "fluff and buff".

The feed ramps and steaking the gas keys are huge.

 

I've chopped it down to add ephasis, but that whole post was really well put.

[mgconnor13 206]

Right on Krisfox.

 

Take care of your stuff and it will take care of you. My M4s have always run great for me because I've taken care of them and made sure I was in good with the company armorer ( beef jerky, coffee and offering to help move heavy stuff goes a long way). I know people that had weapons that gave them problems, some how those rifles always magicly seemed to work for me........

[KrisFox 69]

Hand me a factory, DPMS, Olympic, or even a Vulcan/Hesse and I can make it run like a top WITHOUT replacing parts. Add feed ramps, properly steak gas keys, check gas seal of gas block etc.

 

 

 

Shitty/Cheep AR-15 are like factory Saigas. Sure out of the box they work fine for the most part, but if you want to see the full potential of the weapon your going to have to apply some elbow grease, cash, or have a buddy "in the know" give it a conversion or at least a "fluff and buff".

The feed ramps and steaking the gas keys are huge.

 

I've chopped it down to add ephasis, but that whole post was really well put.

 

I'll double tap that highlight since it is a big deal.

 

Those are an easy fix. It takes me less than 5 min with a jig and mill head to cut proper feed ramps in the upper and barrel. Plus mine will be perfectly matched from barrel to upper. For another 5 min I'll give those ramps a finish you can see your distorted self in.

 

As for the gas key steaking. It can be done properly with a punch and hammer or made pretty and consistent with a Jig. Another alternative I'm warming up to is high temp locktite if you like a clean look that is secure.

[volkov 318]

going to the fact that we like the AR for smaller ammo- more carried..

 

If I'm in a war and a guys in cover, I want to fire and fuck his cover up and kill the bastard, not sit about with a 5.56 wasting ammo tryng to hit him when he pokes his head around the corner, or just wasting ammo on a wall or tree that isn't going anywhere. Hell my gun has a 2% chance of jamming when he does stick his head around the corner anyway if I'm going AR.. so 1/50 times that I'm getting a shot at the bastard nothing happens.

 

Point is, you can carry more ammo for the AR- but in an actual fight involving cover your probaly going to have to use less ammo to hit the guy your tryng to kill with an 7.62... And that's not even touching on stopping power, that's just the fact that if the guy hides behind a tree, you can still put a bullet in his brain rather than spraying bullets everytime you get a good shot for half a second.

[KrisFox 69]

going to the fact that we like the AR for smaller ammo- more carried..

 

If I'm in a war and a guys in cover, I want to fire and fuck his cover up and kill the bastard, not sit about with a 5.56 wasting ammo tryng to hit him when he pokes his head around the corner, or just wasting ammo on a wall or tree that isn't going anywhere. Hell my gun has a 2% chance of jamming when he does stick his head around the corner anyway if I'm going AR.. so 1/50 times that I'm getting a shot at the bastard nothing happens.

 

Point is, you can carry more ammo for the AR- but in an actual fight involving cover your probaly going to have to use less ammo to hit the guy your tryng to kill with an 7.62... And that's not even touching on stopping power, that's just the fact that if the guy hides behind a tree, you can still put a bullet in his brain rather than spraying bullets everytime you get a good shot for half a second.

 

As far as common cover is concerned there isn't much that stops 5.56 that 7.62 can defeat. Especially walls in a country that uses brick and cement construction.

 

I have plenty of trigger time on two way ranges using M240s, M249s, M4s and M16s. The 7.62 does not magically make cover vanish. We use the 50BMG and MK19 for that.

[Krom 36]

My operational experience with the M16 A2 is not as extensive as some here (5yrs USMC 2.5yrs USCG) but I can tell you that I only have confidence in my weapon when I know it is extremely clean and relatively cool (2 mags and I'd start expecting a jam anytime).

And based on my experience m16's including the ones that I have been issued will take a dump on you if you fire allot of rounds in a short time. And this combined with the fact that if any sand gets into it, it's fucked is a bad and puzzling situation to me.

 

And my Armorer from the Marines is a close friend to this day and he has a strong dislike for the M16 too.

 

Bottom line the I think the direct impingement gas system is shit, and should be left on the range and the hands of LEO's who will only need a handful of accurate rapidly fired rounds to take down a criminal, NOT USED IN BATTLE were the shit could really hit the fan.

 

If we must issue the AR platform to our warriors it should be something like the LWRC piston system, at least this would help the platform stand up to more rounds before taking a shit.

 

Maybe some of you here (Krisfox) have developed some creative ways to fix these challenges, like using a dry lube and tuning the platform etc. None of which I have tried or been exposed to through my military career.

I was instructed that I will only use CLP (same in Iraq, even though I heard of guys using unauthorized lubes) and I am only allowed to take the weapon down to a basic field striping to clean it which would prevent me from doing any tuning to the weapon.

A light coat of CLP is what I used on my weapon and it was fairly reliable, at least for the first few rounds, the problem is that if you fire too much too fast that light coat is long gone so welcome to jam city.

And if you keep your weapon more wet then it will function better and longer as long as the CLP does not mix with sand.... Oh fuck that's right we fighting two wars in deserts environments where sand gets into EVERYTHING.

 

I'm not trying to discredit pro AR guys, or say that you can't make an AR into a formidable COMBAT weapon system even in a desert. But I find it grossly unacceptable that you have to unfuck your weapon system for it to be effective.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

see, my expirience has been quite different. I kept mine wet, cleaned it every morning, and was confident that unless i was in a sandstorm I could unload more than 3 mags in a rapid fire without failure.

 

Hell I have pics of me on here somewhere where I've dumped 4-5 30 round mags fast enough to get smoke coming out from the front handguard. I have what apears to be melted brass on my bolt...

 

Yeah, Just a different expirience.

 

Please note I'm still loading another mag while its doing this...

Edited December 7, 2009 by Nailbomb

[KrisFox 69]

[Nailbomb 10,221]

How well worn were the M16s you guys used? Were you issued new mags or recycled old ones?

Fucking OLD. I never had seen a new(er) M-16 untill I ran into the army in Iraq. I also think the slightly looser bolt helped it eat sand better...

[loki0629 55]

Krisfox,

In '04 and '05 there were Marines still using the 'A2 series of M16's. I was one of them. They were transitioning to the M16A4's with the full length barrel and fixed stock. Mags were very hit or miss. Some were new, some were old.

[KrisFox 69]

Krisfox,

In '04 and '05 there were Marines still using the 'A2 series of M16's. I was one of them. They were transitioning to the M16A4's with the full length barrel and fixed stock. Mags were very hit or miss. Some were new, some were old.

 

I'll hand it to any MARINE.

 

You guys do more with less than any armed force in the world.

[Krom 36]

[loki0629 55]

Krisfox,

In '04 and '05 there were Marines still using the 'A2 series of M16's. I was one of them. They were transitioning to the M16A4's with the full length barrel and fixed stock. Mags were very hit or miss. Some were new, some were old.

 

I'll hand it to any MARINE.

 

You guys do more with less than any armed force in the world.

 

I'm not even going to get into the lack of armor kits for HMMVW's or ACOG's for the rifles. Sometimes we patrolled with Army psyops and we looked like the Beverly Hillbillies driving next to a Formula 1 racer.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

I'm not even going to get into the lack of armor kits for HMMVW's or ACOG's for the rifles. Sometimes we patrolled with Army psyops and we looked like the Beverly Hillbillies driving next to a Formula 1 racer.

Yeah we scabbed our own armor together using armor plate, and I bought my own red dot, and passed it on to the guy replacing me when i left.