Mr Polytech 3 Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Surefire Versus Pro-Mag- Whats the difference??? (Besides price)...Reliability? Overall quality of manufacture? Robustness? I already own both FBMG and Surefire mags in .308...I am looking for .223 Hi-cap mags for my Saiga .223, and I noticed over at RSR that the Pro-Mag .223 mags are waaaay cheaper price-wise than the Surefires...Are the Surefires worth the xtra $20 a piece over the Pro-mags??? (I have never tried Pro-Mag yet)... Any comments are welcome. THANKS! J.D. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PRISONSHANK 70 Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 I never had issues at all with surefires when I ran them, but after a feed ramp and bulgy waffles I'd never go back. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulry 50 Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Promag's for the .223 Saiga are a joke. Product failure is for certain! Spend your money wisely! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Polytech 3 Posted December 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 I notice there is a guy named Dinzag who sells a feedramp kit for the saiga .223...Is he still in business? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saigafreake 27 Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 surefires or milspec mags with bullet guide dont buy promag. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 (edited) PRO-MAG = NO MAG! Trust everyone on the board... Promag sucks balls! Edit: Welcome to the forum. Edited December 2, 2009 by Paulyski Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 I notice there is a guy named Dinzag who sells a feedramp kit for the saiga .223...Is he still in business? Yes, he is. Here is his link: http://www.dinzagarms.com/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
creature 0 Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 The basic difference comes down to quality of the product. The biggest problem you will have with ProMag is that the bullet guide on them snaps off very easily without modifications to the guide itself. If you are up to the task of shaving down the guide, ProMags are okay to use. Most people prefer not to have to fix defects that shouldn't be there to begin with. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MaineMarshal 0 Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 I have owned both Surefire and Promag magazines for my Saiga .223. Never had a single problem with any of the Surefire and after a brief inspection of the Promags I quickly got rid of them. No comparison quality wise. I do wish the Surefires were less expensive though ..... quality 30 round mags for an unmodified Saiga .223 for around $20? It may be a dream but I have to have hope that it may someday happen! Maine Marshal Quote Link to post Share on other sites
creature 0 Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 I have owned both Surefire and Promag magazines for my Saiga .223. Never had a single problem with any of the Surefire and after a brief inspection of the Promags I quickly got rid of them. No comparison quality wise. I do wish the Surefires were less expensive though ..... quality 30 round mags for an unmodified Saiga .223 for around $20? It may be a dream but I have to have hope that it may someday happen! Maine Marshal I know it's going to sound like I am shilling for them, but contacts Clips-R-Us (clipsrus@hotmail.com | 361-939-9229). They were selling SureFire 223 magazines at the Dulles gun show here in Northern VA for $25 each. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pointer55 1 Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 surefire are better mags quality-wise, that being said I have never had a problem with the saiga 223 promags I have. For under $15 it isn't such a gamble to buy one and try it out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulry 50 Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 Fellow Members!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have you totally overlooked our own Commercial member Carolina Shooters Supply???????????????????????????????? Surefire Saiga .223 Mags: 20 round = $27 and change 30 round = $28 and change WHAT'S NOT TO LOVE ABOUT THAT? ONLY A SMIDGEN ABOVE THE PRO FAG !!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bohound 281 Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 I made the mistake of buying two Promags, they win, they got my hard earned cash. The FIRST time at the range, BOTH mags failed. As another poster stated, the integral bullet guide broke. The first round loaded, fired, and ejected. Round two hit the bottom of the barrel at the trunnion, compressing the round into the casing. Needless to say, I almost threw the mags out right there at the range. Instead, they are the mags I use to practice magazine quick changes, Type III malfunction clearing/reload, and the like. Muscle memory is important, and I'm not worried about dropping these and breaking them with repeated use. The Surefires I have (7) are well worth it. They are well built, and feed flawlessly. I have a bullet guide, and some circle 10's, but have not installed it yet due to the function of the Surefires. They all stay in my SHTF kit nonetheless. Save the money and aggrevation, stay away from Promag. Almost every person on this board with a .223 is most likely inclined to agree. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted December 4, 2009 Report Share Posted December 4, 2009 I made the mistake of buying two Promags, they win, they got my hard earned cash. The FIRST time at the range, BOTH mags failed. As another poster stated, the integral bullet guide broke. The first round loaded, fired, and ejected. Round two hit the bottom of the barrel at the trunnion, compressing the round into the casing. Needless to say, I almost threw the mags out right there at the range. Instead, they are the mags I use to practice magazine quick changes, Type III malfunction clearing/reload, and the like. Muscle memory is important, and I'm not worried about dropping these and breaking them with repeated use. The Surefires I have (7) are well worth it. They are well built, and feed flawlessly. I have a bullet guide, and some circle 10's, but have not installed it yet due to the function of the Surefires. They all stay in my SHTF kit nonetheless. Save the money and aggrevation, stay away from Promag. Almost every person on this board with a .223 is most likely inclined to agree. bohound, May I ask how you load your Surefires up? Do you user a mag loader (if so what kind) or do you load and unload by hand? I'm trying to find a quality loader as my Lulu loader will not fit over the Surefires. Thanks. Wolverine Quote Link to post Share on other sites
christcorp 26 Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 (edited) You're asking a question that is basically a no win situation. Might as well be asking if a .223 is better than a 7.62x39. Now; is the construction of the surefire magazines better than that of a promag? Yes. But does that make the surefire worth $25 more; or does it make the promag a POS? Not necessarily on either count. Here's the problem. This is a public forum. You ask this question, and out of 10 people give you a reply; only 3 say they ever owned a promag. 1 or 2 of them are probably lying. The 7 who don't or have never owned one, are giving you 2nd hand knowledge based off of what some other internet poster said; who's cousin's, friend's, neighbor's father; who stayed at a Holiday Inn Express; told him once. But don't worry; the same thing happens when people say that Hi-Point pistols are crap. They too never owned one; but many think they are experts. Yey, if you go to the hi-point forums, and read from people who actually own them, you find that the overwhelming majority think they are a fine gun. And not just people who are poor smucks and it's the only weapon they own; but people who also own AR's, 1911A1, Sigs, HK's, etc... It might not be my favorite carry gun because of ergonomics, but to keep one in my truck, boat, camper, garage, etc... I have complete confidence that it will work when I need it. This is not to say that a lot of these people's opinions on the promag aren't worth anything. They are. But you really need to ask your question; or do your research around where people buy promag magazine. For instance; of just about everyone who has actually owned a promag saiga .223 magazine, most all of them said that they worked fine. They aren't the quality of a surefire or using a modified galil or bulgarian magazine; but they worked fine. Some have had issues with them; some haven't. I've never owned a promag for the saiga, but I've owned promags for other weapons. And while I'll be the first to admit that they aren't the quality or reliability that I would go to war with or protect my family with; I'll also tell you that they are perfectly 100% reliable and dependable for going to the range plinking. And you'll find this too to be the general consensus. So; what am I saying. Simple. For my SigSauer P220 45acp that I carry for self defense, I have 2 factory Sig magazines. For plinking around, I have no problem having a hand full of promags. The company gives you a LIFETIME WARRANTY. And I've only ever had 1 break on me. And that's because I dropped my pistol, right on the magazine. And promag sent me a replacement. So, for your saiga, what is my suggestion? It came with a 10 round factory mag that is very good quality. Buy 1 or 2 Surefires for $28 each at mississippiarms.com. Then, go to sportsmansguide.com and buy promags for the rest. If you buy 1 mag, it's $19 if you are a member. If you buy 3, they're only $17.50 each as a member. If you buy 8, they are only $11.25 each if you're a member. Then you'll have all the plinking magazines you'll need, and you'll have 3 high quality magazines if the situation ever arises where you think you'll need the weapon for serious business. Of course, there are some who believe in zombies and live in the Rambo world, who think the world is coming to an end. They have 50-100 magazines for each weapon, and thousands of rounds of ammo for each weapon. They can spend all their money on magazines and ammo if they want. Also remember; promag made a lot of .223 magazines that weren't specifically for the saiga. They now make saiga specific magazines. I question how many opinions on these forums about promag were formulated from old and outdated information. Again; buy 80% promag for plinking and non-important shooting; and have 20% factory, surefire, or military adapted magazines for the "WHAT IF SHTF" factor. Edited January 11, 2010 by christcorp 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
swells08 128 Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 Christcorp, that is perhaps one of the best written blog posts ever in an opinionated forum. I feel that same way, I got 2 promag Saiga specific magazines with my rifle at the gun show a few months back. I of course have cycled approximately 100 rounds through each and only had 1 ftf early on it might have been the spring needing to be broken in. I do not bumb fire or get my gun off while shooting because I want to improve my accuracy and capability with my rifle, not just show off at a range. My father and grandfather and great grandfather all served in military during war times in the field, you can send 100's of rounds rapidly and only get 3 kills. I prefer to be very purposful with my shots and the magazines seem to cycle properly with my cheap brownbear 62grain rounds. I tried many loads to find out the cheapest shot the best aside from tuned handloads. I have not used a surefire but have heard great things about them. As christcorp said I own promags and they work. I hopefully will add a bg and orlites soon when taxes come back. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
christcorp 26 Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 Dog; I love guns. They are fun. I've owned more than 100 in my life. But at any one time, I'm probably only possessing about 10-15. Currently, I think it's about 13. All of my guns have a SPECIFIC PURPOSE. But I am also big time into computers, working on my 66 mustang, my motorcycle, and many other interests. As such; I spend a lot of time on numerous forums. Always trying to learn and pass on information to others. But I have to be honest and say that in general; gun forums and owners probably have more "Snobs" than any other forum. If a person owns a Hi-Point, they are looked down upon. Those poor people have to have dedicated forums to hi-point firearms just to pass around information. If they come to general forums that discuss numerous guns and manufacturers, they are made to feel like they are 2nd class gun owners. Same with any gun. I am definitely in for quality. Especially if my, or my family's life, is at risk. But what is the level of quality. For some people, if you don't have a match grade Colt AR-15, then you don't have a quality .223. Yes, I think it's important to have quality made magazines for your weapon. The overall consensus; including my own experience; is that the Surefire is by far a very high quality magazine. But do I NEED ten of them at $40 each? What's wrong with 2 of them for $80, and $90 more for 8 Promags at $11.40 each??? So instead of $400 in magazines, I can spend $170 in magazines. Then I have an extra $230 for ammo, scope, laser, or maybe I take the wife out for a really nice dinner or buy her a nice dress. I'll be honest; financially, I am well off. I could drop $1500-$2000 on a Colt AR-15 and I wouldn't even have to balance my checkbook, because it couldn't bounce. Yet, I didn't become this well off by spending $400 on magazines when I could accomplish the exact same thing for $170. Or spending $1200 on an AR-15 when I could have exactly what I was looking for with a $400 saiga in .223. Thank you for your post. It's good to see common sense people in the world. I've always suggested when it comes to rifle/pistol magazines, that people have 2-3 original/factory/oem/or as close to as possible. Then the rest that they want to have, they get the best bang for the buck. There is no logic to say that 10 Surefires is better than 10 promags for the saiga. YES; 2 surefires is BETTER than 2 Promags. But even in a SHTF scenario, you aren't going to need 10 full magazines firing 300 rounds in order to save your life. I spent 21 years in the military. Sorry, this isn't a Die-Hard or Lethal Weapon movie. Buy 2 high quality magazines; break them in; shoot them every once in a while. If you are going to buy more mags for "Convenience", go with the promag or whatever you can get on sale. I collect a lot of military and obscure weapons. CZ-82, AP-MBP, Luger, etc... I have no choice but buying expensive original magazines. But for the world of the AK, AR, etc... where there is a good supply of aftermarket magazines; buy a couple high quality, and buy others for fun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
creature 0 Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 Well, I will reply as someone who owns both Surefire and Promag magazines for my Saiga 223. I own six 30 round magazines in total, 3 Promag and 3 Surefire magazines. The 3 Promags I have had to replace due to the issue I described earlier in this thread. Now, with the new magazines from Promag I did make the physical changes to the bullet guide. Now that the bullet guide has been changed, I have no issues with the magazines. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
maniacmitch 0 Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 New guy here. I joined this forum because I bought a .223 Saiga and three 30-rd Pro-Mag magazines at a local gunshow. I didn't know anything negative about Pro-Mag. Their mags had a tiny thin lip in the front of the mag to force the round up into the chamber. Well, all three of my mags broke that thin little tab off. I think part of it is the heavy as SH*T spring pressure they use in the mag. I could only get 27-rds in the 30-rd mags. I think the heavy spring wouldn't let the round start moving upward...coupled with the thin tab and it's broke. Each mag maybe did 10 rounds at the most before they broke. I called Pro-Mag and they said they have a new design which eliminates the problem...so I sent the mags back to them...still waiting on a return (sent off 1/5/10). I bought one 30-rd Surefire from Carolina SS because they had a good price. He (Gene I think) sent the mag priority mail so I got it in two days...thanks Carolina. And....drum roll....the Surefire mag has no problems. Oh and it actually holds 31 rounds. The front force tab (or whatever the proper term is) on the Surefire is the same as the factory 10rd mag. The rifle is doing great with the Surefire mag. If the Pro-Mags don't work better, I'll make a decision between the bullet guide or more Surefire mags. I almost went with the guide until I thought about the fact that one of the Pro-Mags had a broken follower plate also. So I'd have to send it back even if I wanted to notch the promags to use with the bullet guide. So I decided to give Pro-Mag a chance. And as noted above, this is strictly my opinion based on my experience and observation...I am NOT any kind of expert. I will post if the new Pro-Mags work properly. Good info on this site guys...kept posting. Maniac Mitch Quote Link to post Share on other sites
christcorp 26 Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 Does anyone (Creature Shock); have a pic of the promag saiga .223 magazine, where you can show/point to the follower tab that you speak of? Maybe there's a link? If people become aware of potential issues, and they can avoid the problem, then there's no reason in the world to not buy a promag and save $30 per magazine. Info is good. Knowledge is good. The truth shall set us free. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
russiangunrunner 10 Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 Does anyone (Creature Shock); have a pic of the promag saiga .223 magazine, where you can show/point to the follower tab that you speak of? Maybe there's a link? If people become aware of potential issues, and they can avoid the problem, then there's no reason in the world to not buy a promag and save $30 per magazine. Info is good. Knowledge is good. The truth shall set us free. here's the basic breakdown..... surefires and and promags are total crap compared to milspec ak74, galil, bulgy .223, romy steelies, or any other milspec mag easily made to work with the saiga. pro mags that need a bullet guide are dead reliable, and if they have defects, return them. i know guys who put their life on gi spec aluminum ar mags... and trust me those mags are total shit. the magpul poly mags are the best for the ar system and the half dozen promag mags i've messed with for the ak are miles sturdier..... just stay away from the ones that work in unmodded saiga rifles, they're crap no matter what brand u buy. especialy if u shell out 20-30 hard earned dollars for the damn things. no disrespect, but when people talk about shtf or bug-out gear and mention mags that cost an arm and are a compromise it just hurts inside man... ak74 mags are 10-15 promag mil-style 12-16 bulgy circle tens 25-30 (the best) galil 20-35-40 polish 25-35 there's other mags out there that are actually worth the money, if all else fails, promags kick ass. just not the ones you guys are talking about....that little nub on the front that breaks shouldn't even be there. at least not on a mag owned by any self respecting fire arms not. btw, its just my take. not stepping on toes here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cooger 19 Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 I've been trying to find out information about Promags also. The only problem I've ever read is the tab breaking off. I'm wondering if they will work fine if you file that down and add a bullet guide. My gun from the factory has a great trigger so i don't want to waste my time and money doing a full conversion if i can just add a different stock, bullet guide, and use Promags with the tab filed down. I just talked to a guy who knows 1000X more about guns thatn I do. He told me he has over a dozen Promag rifle mags and loves them, never had a single problem with them. I'm also wondering how much I read about Promags being crap is from people who read about someone having a problem with one so they jumped on the poo poo Promag bandwagon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
christcorp 26 Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 Thanks for the response. But you bring up some other questions. You say that the promags are good, except for the ones meant for the saiga, because of the tab/nub on the front. (I assume it's part of it's internal bullet guide). So, what if you bought those promag magazines, and purposely cut the tab off. (Or let it break under normal conditions). And you already have a bullet guide on your gun? Maybe you already have the bullet guide for some of those bulgies, galil, etc... Without the tab on the promag, would the promag then be a decent magazine? Remember; the promag can be bought for $11.25 each. And as I mentioned earlier, if you have some quality mags like the bulgies, galil, or even the surefire; (By the way; you're the 1st person I've heard say ANYTHING negative about a surefire magazine); anyway, having a couple of quality magazines, there would be nothing wrong with having the majority of your plinking/fun shooting to be done with some $11 promags. I guess if a person believes they NEED 10, 20, 30, .... 100 magazines; and they believe that EVERY magazine must be high quality magazines, then that is their choice. And definitely their money. Me personally; that's such a waste of money. If I feel I NEED 10 magazines; all 10 don't have to be $30-$40 magazines. I can buy 2-3 high quality for "Real life" situations; and the other 7-8 can be inexpensive for practice/plinking. I'm just not someone who believes in zombies. Nor do I believe in a SHTF scenario where I need dozens of magazines to save my family. You only really NEED as many magazines as the amount of ammo you can haul off with you. If you think you can/want to carry 1000 rounds of ammo on you, then I guess you need 30 magazines. I don't. Anyway, you mention 2 different promag magazines one's made exclusively for an unmodded saiga; (You call junk); and the others, which I assume are promags for the galil or other .223 weapon that by using a bullet guide in the saiga, you are able to use THESE promags. Is that what you're saying/recommending? thanks. mike. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
russiangunrunner 10 Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 just use a utility knife to fix the mag carefully, and u should be good. if the spring or anything goes just return them. hell, make them live up to their warranty, right? anyways, three US parts for 12 bucks aint bad, sure they aren't durable, but they work, and every time too. as far as surefire mags, paying 30 bucks for mags that don't live up to 10 dollar ak74 mag quality is just wrong. they may be good, but not 3 promags good. u see? btw u can get a 4 pack of 74 mags with pouch at centerfire sysfems now for 39.99 they will need the followers modded to work with 556 ammo but it's a simple mod. or just buy one bulgy .223 mag and plink to your heart's desire. they're actually worth the 25 bucks.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
christcorp 26 Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 vlad; you say to take a utility knife and carefully fix the magazine. Are you saying to cut off the bullet guide portion? If so, do I need to have a bullet guide on the rifle for the magazines to work? Please explain. I am quite interested. If I don't have a bullet guide on the rifle, will the tab issue you're talking about on the promags, make them unusable on the saiga without a bullet guide? thanks. mike. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
russiangunrunner 10 Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 yeah, thats the thing... u wont have use of any good mags untill u install a bullet guide. u can make one from a thin piece of metal the width of the flat part on the bottom of the trunnion and then rivet or bolt it down. a 3/16 or 1/8 piece of metal should do it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulry 50 Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 To answer "Creature Shock" I have both Surefire and ProMags in .223. The ProMags will NOT work the way they come from the factory. The Bullet Feed ramp must be filed down to allow the bullet to glide over the top of the guide tab on the front of the mag. It is easy to do with a small rat tail file. The Pro Mag follower must be smoothed up and the inside of the body might need a little smoothing (can't say it must be done for sure yet). Please refer to a post I made showing what I did to make my Pro Fags to work. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=45852 If I had to do over, I would buy Surefire from Carolina Shooters Supply as they really lowered the price and they are much better mags. I use the Pro Mags for practice only and they work (after mod) great. In a SHTF scenario, I would grab Surefire (I have plenty of them as well now). Good luck Frosty Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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