Saiga .223 vs 5.45

[mrwgafun 1]

I'm sure this is going to open a whole big can of worms. I apologize in advance. I'm buying my Saiga this week. The shop has both .223 and a 5.45. They are the same price. I have ruled out the 7.62 x 39 because I have 2 SKS's and I want a different round. Is one cartridge more accurate then the other? I know I could get .223 almost anywhere like Walmart. But the 5.45 may be a little harder to get. It looks like they are both the same in price so that could be a wash. So I guess it comes down to range, accuracy and availability.

 

Oh.. I do not hunt I only kill paper. I do plan using a red dot or scope, adding a Tapco stock and hand guard eventually.

 

Does anyone want to weigh in?

[jimdigriz 580]

I'm sure this is going to open a whole big can of worms. I apologize in advance. I'm buying my Saiga this week. The shop has both .223 and a 5.45. They are the same price. I have ruled out the 7.62 x 39 because I have 2 SKS's and I want a different round. Is one cartridge more accurate then the other? I know I could get .223 almost anywhere like Walmart. But the 5.45 may be a little harder to get. It looks like they are both the same in price so that could be a wash. So I guess it comes down to range, accuracy and availability.

 

Oh.. I do not hunt I only kill paper. I do plan using a red dot or scope, adding a Tapco stock and hand guard eventually.

 

Does anyone want to weigh in?

 

I doubt there is any significant difference in accuracy. I know that my 5.45 is very, very accurate. I haven't shot the 223 version enough to evaluate it side by side.

 

For the moment, 5.45 is much cheaper, and you will be able to shoot it more because of that. Of course, you run the risk of the foreign ammo supply drying up for whatever reason. I'm dealing with that by buying lots and lots of 5.45 surplus.

 

Jim

[YARP 300]

I'd go with the 5.45x39. I've only shot this round once (about 100rds) and was REALLY impressed by it in comparison to the .223. It had a whole lot (not like there's much) less felt recoil than the .223, which made it easy to quickly get back on target for follow up shots.

oh yea I guess it helps that you can pick up 1000rds for $200.00 too.

[mgconnor13 206]

5.45x39 was the russian's response to 5.56x45 when we introduced it in vietnam. you should see similar performance between the two rounds so I would go with the cheaper ammo which is 5.45 for the time being.

[JK-47 33]

If you can also afford to put away a few tins of russian surplus, then go for the 5.45. every 1000 rounds you shoot you are saving about 100$ over the same ammount of russian .223 comercial steel cased ammo. hit 3.5 tins and you've payed off the rifle in ammo savings, sort of. If you want a SHTF rifle, go with .223 with an AR-15 mag adapter.

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

If you can also afford to put away a few tins of russian surplus, then go for the 5.45. every 1000 rounds you shoot you are saving about 100$ over the same ammount of russian .223 comercial steel cased ammo. hit 3.5 tins and you've payed off the rifle in ammo savings, sort of. If you want a SHTF rifle, go with .223 with an AR-15 mag adapter.

 

+++++1

 

The only problem with "cheap" items in the gun industry is that they won't stay that way once people come out with ways of using them. Wolf .223 and 7.62x39 was about $2.50/box 5 years ago. That same stuff runs about 3 times that today.

 

Sten Mags and Grease Gun mags were cheap and abundant and then Masterpiece Arms and several other Mac makers created conversions or guns that take them and they disappeared. The mags that used to be less than $4 each are now over $20.

 

So my point is that 5.45 may be cheap right now, but in a year or so, the demand due to Saigas and AR uppers in 5.45 will likely drive the price to where the .223 and 7.62 ammo is. So if you can stock up now on lots of $150 cases of 1000, do it! Otherwise, you may be disappointed when the surplus dries up and manufacturers start charging more.

[volkov 318]

If you can also afford to put away a few tins of russian surplus, then go for the 5.45. every 1000 rounds you shoot you are saving about 100$ over the same ammount of russian .223 comercial steel cased ammo. hit 3.5 tins and you've payed off the rifle in ammo savings, sort of. If you want a SHTF rifle, go with .223 with an AR-15 mag adapter.

 

+++++1

 

The only problem with "cheap" items in the gun industry is that they won't stay that way once people come out with ways of using them. Wolf .223 and 7.62x39 was about $2.50/box 5 years ago. That same stuff runs about 3 times that today.

 

Sten Mags and Grease Gun mags were cheap and abundant and then Masterpiece Arms and several other Mac makers created conversions or guns that take them and they disappeared. The mags that used to be less than $4 each are now over $20.

 

So my point is that 5.45 may be cheap right now, but in a year or so, the demand due to Saigas and AR uppers in 5.45 will likely drive the price to where the .223 and 7.62 ammo is. So if you can stock up now on lots of $150 cases of 1000, do it! Otherwise, you may be disappointed when the surplus dries up and manufacturers start charging more.

 

agreed. and prices change, but as stated above, if you run with the 5.45 you'll pay for the rifle in ammo savings in a relatively short amount of time.. and if the ammo becomes popular as a result of more guns made to utilize it, there will be more non-surplus ammo made for it at .223 prices I'd imagine. I heard some american companies have played with the idea of making 5.45.. and if the military surplus competition dries up they will be on it in a heartbeat

[Paulry 50]

volkov said it,

 

"the military surplus competition dries"

 

For every caliber discussed, there was once a large supply of "Surplus" ammo. This is what provides a product at a low cost. Without a "Surplus", the price will go up. We know there was a huge surplus of 7.62x39 when the Eastern European armies left the Warsaw Pact and joined the NATO group. They wisely turned to a ready market in the US to help discard of the "Surplus" (destroyed maybe billions of rounds as well). The Russian ammo manufacturers can manufacture at a very low cost and that is why they can bring in a product that was low in cost as well. It's a supply and demand issue and with the Iraq and Afghan wars and the restock of ammo for both countries armies out of Russia, the cost went up. The Obammy election also spurred a large demand in the market, which was met and caused an increase in price (supply and demand).

 

For now, we know the Bulgarian, Polish, and Romanian armies have moved from the 5.45x39 to the NATO standard 5.56x45 rounds, which created another surplus! This one is finite and will run out (unless the likes of Circle 10 continue to manufacture the 5.45x39 for commercial use). The Russian Army has many, many rounds stored up and if they can sell millions of older ammo they can bring in fresh foreign capital and it allows them to replace it with new ammo (which might be a newer type of ammo compared to what they sell for surplus) this supply may not dry up other than by political conditions.

 

Which leaves us looking at where 5.45x39 ammo could come from in the future?

 

I believe it could be from Bulgaria or Romania (they already are) if the Russian supply is cut off. Russia will continue to supply (Russian ammo MFG have integrated into the "sporting ammo" market which will help keep it in play). And as mentioned, the domestic demand continues to increase (this is why the cost of surplus 5.45x39 has increased). If the 5.45x39 is shut off due to bans or political means, it will affect the 5.56x45 as well as every other military heritage round as well, meaning it could happen, but it will impact all ammo.

 

I would not worry about the availability of the 5.45x39, and would look at the reduced cost of very high quality magazines! That should have a great influence on decisions as well! Surplus (that word again) AK74 mags are great!

 

Now, as I own a 5.45x39, and I don't want competition for buying "Surplus ammo" I will tell you to buy the damn .223! Thank you!

 

Edited January 7, 2010 by Fluid Power

[Krom 36]

++ on the above oppinons, I agree that the 5.45x39 has some BIG advantages.

 

I'd like to add to to the 5.45's case and point out that the terminal balistics of surplus 5.45 is good to go compare that to russian .223 (fmj at least, I'm not so sure of any russain hp .223) which sucks terribly. So if you want good terminal effects from a .223 you have feed it with high quality american ammo, not the russian stuff. There is no way I'd take a .223 loaded with russian ammo over a 5.45 period.

 

However, the main saving grace (atleast for me) is that the .223 can share ammo with the military and LE (which I am). So in my case being able to share ammo is huge, also if all your friends that you would likely run with are AR guys it might make more sense to have something in the same caliber.

 

5.56/.223 does have superior terminal balastics and ammo choices, but you will pay x3 more for it.

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

The only problem with "cheap" items in the gun industry is that they won't stay that way once people come out with ways of using them. Wolf .223 and 7.62x39 was about $2.50/box 5 years ago. That same stuff runs about 3 times that today.

 

Not really. The Russian stuff isn't as cheap as it used to be, no, but I'm getting Bear (which I have found to be cleaner and more accurate than Wolf) at ±$225 shipped for 1,000 rounds

 

EDIT: Since none of our vendors sell ammo is it ok to link to ammo selling sites or no?

Edited January 8, 2010 by Klassy Kalashnikov

[Krom 36]

Still most of the ruskie ammo I see for .223 is fmj and underpowered which equals very poor terminal effects. The nice thing about 5.45 is that the surplus ammo even though it's fmj has good terminal effects, so your plinking ammo and your SHTF ammo are the same and both are cheap.

 

I'm not an expert on russian .223 so if anyone has more info on cheap russian hp's and if they offer good terminal effects please fill me in.

 

If not then to me the 5.45 has huge advantage, IE much more killing power for the cost.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Krom

[jimdigriz 580]

If not then to me the 5.45 has huge advantage, IE much more killing power for the cost.

 

Good point.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

I'd sell the two SKSs and buy a Saiga in 7.62x39 but since I doubt you'd take that advice....

 

Imo, the Saiga .223 is really a bastard rifle, (no Russian military rifle is chambered for that round). .223 is also fairly expensive, (even more than 7.62).

 

Therefore, I'd go with the 5.45x39; a Russian caliber, (that's still cheap!), for a Russian rifle.

Edited January 9, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[Paulry 50]

Don't listen to "Post", he don't own a 5.45x39!

 

It's my surplus, MINE I tell you!

 

Did you see all the nice 5.56x45 surplus out there on the web now?

 

Edited January 9, 2010 by Fluid Power

[Mullet Man 2,114]

I'd sell the two SKSs and buy a Saiga in 7.62x39 but since I doubt you'd take that advice....

 

Imo, the Saiga .223 is really a bastard rifle, (no Russian military rifle is chambered for that round). .223 is also fairly expensive, (even more than 7.62).

 

Therefore, I'd go with the 5.45x39; a Russian caliber, (that's still cheap!), for a Russian rifle.

 

 

whats this?

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

I'd sell the two SKSs and buy a Saiga in 7.62x39 but since I doubt you'd take that advice....

 

Imo, the Saiga .223 is really a bastard rifle, (no Russian military rifle is chambered for that round). .223 is also fairly expensive, (even more than 7.62).

 

Therefore, I'd go with the 5.45x39; a Russian caliber, (that's still cheap!), for a Russian rifle.

 

 

whats this?

 

Well, it looks like a link to a rifle that proves me wrong.

 

I'm curious who in their military uses those.. I thought their soldiers were all issued 5.45x39 and/or 7.62x39 rifles.

[crackback 135]

volkov said it,

 

"the military surplus competition dries"

 

For every caliber discussed, there was once a large supply of "Surplus" ammo. This is what provides a product at a low cost. Without a "Surplus", the price will go up. We know there was a huge surplus of 7.62x39 when the Eastern European armies left the Warsaw Pact and joined the NATO group. They wisely turned to a ready market in the US to help discard of the "Surplus" (destroyed maybe billions of rounds as well). The Russian ammo manufacturers can manufacture at a very low cost and that is why they can bring in a product that was low in cost as well. It's a supply and demand issue and with the Iraq and Afghan wars and the restock of ammo for both countries armies out of Russia, the cost went up. The Obammy election also spurred a large demand in the market, which was met and caused an increase in price (supply and demand).

 

For now, we know the Bulgarian, Polish, and Romanian armies have moved from the 5.45x39 to the NATO standard 5.56x45 rounds, which created another surplus! This one is finite and will run out (unless the likes of Circle 10 continue to manufacture the 5.45x39 for commercial use). The Russian Army has many, many rounds stored up and if they can sell millions of older ammo they can bring in fresh foreign capital and it allows them to replace it with new ammo (which might be a newer type of ammo compared to what they sell for surplus) this supply may not dry up other than by political conditions.

 

Which leaves us looking at where 5.45x39 ammo could come from in the future?

 

I believe it could be from Bulgaria or Romania (they already are) if the Russian supply is cut off. Russia will continue to supply (Russian ammo MFG have integrated into the "sporting ammo" market which will help keep it in play). And as mentioned, the domestic demand continues to increase (this is why the cost of surplus 5.45x39 has increased). If the 5.45x39 is shut off due to bans or political means, it will affect the 5.56x45 as well as every other military heritage round as well, meaning it could happen, but it will impact all ammo.

 

I would not worry about the availability of the 5.45x39, and would look at the reduced cost of very high quality magazines! That should have a great influence on decisions as well! Surplus (that word again) AK74 mags are great!

 

Now, as I own a 5.45x39, and I don't want competition for buying "Surplus ammo" I will tell you to buy the damn .223! Thank you!

 

\

 

Good post! Keep in mind that anything that is exclusivley imported, such as ALL 5.45 ammo, can be barred from further importation by Executive Order only! No congressional vote, no referendum, no NRA lobbying, nada... George HW Bush (41) did just this with all the Chinese AK's, Tigers (True Dragunovs) and many others.

[Paulry 50]

Ya!

I'm trying to be positive. Although, I do have a couple of Saiga .223 as well! Just in case.