vbrtrmn 167 Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 I'm working on this little web application which generates a firearms bill of sale, it is loosely based on the bill of sale provided by TexasGunTrader.com. The goal of the project was to set it up so that users could either print a blank copy or fill in the blanks and print it out. Currently, if you enter information into any of the boxes, it will insert info into the document, then you can click on the inserted info and modify it. The server does not and will never store any of the personal information entered. If you have any comments or questions or find any bugs, please reply. I am not planning on doing anything commercial with it, I was just hoping to write a tool to help people in the community out a bit. http://jobson.us/firearmbillofsale/ Thanks Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
swells08 128 Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 I'm working on this little web application which generates a firearms bill of sale, it is loosely based on the bill of sale provided by TexasGunTrader.com. The goal of the project was to set it up so that users could either print a blank copy or fill in the blanks and print it out. Currently, if you enter information into any of the boxes, it will insert info into the document, then you can click on the inserted info and modify it. The server does not and will never store any of the personal information entered. If you have any comments or questions or find any bugs, please reply. I am not planning on doing anything commercial with it, I was just hoping to write a tool to help people in the community out a bit. http://jobson.us/firearmbillofsale/ Thanks Paul Nice! that is awesome you are one smart cookie...that does look easy enough and convenient...great job. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 Looks thorough enough. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
presto_z 125 Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 Nice bill of sale, but a little over kill for me.. The only info i get is to clear my name in case of a crime.. All i usually want is the buyers/sellers name/signature, date, make/serial# and "AS IS" As a buyer/seller the other buyer/seller does not need to know my address or DL#. I never buy/sell firearms at my house, most of my private gun transactions go down in the walmart parking lot lol.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
swells08 128 Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 Nice bill of sale, but a little over kill for me.. The only info i get is to clear my name in case of a crime.. All i usually want is the buyers/sellers name/signature, date, make/serial# and "AS IS" As a buyer/seller the other buyer/seller does not need to know my address or DL#. I never buy/sell firearms at my house, most of my private gun transactions go down in the walmart parking lot lol.. Good point...unneccessary info can be a problem...guess I have to remember it's a gun not an old car...lol Quote Link to post Share on other sites
diamondback 56 Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 I also like to have a lnie in my version about "seller certifies that he is the legal owner of the firearm being sold", and I also like to have all of this noted as "under penalty of perjury". But that's just me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Krom 36 Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Is all this really necessary? There is nothing that says I need to make a bill of sale so I could give two shits I know for a fact that all the people I've sold guns to are legally able to buy. I mean if the ATF ever came knocking on my door asking about a firearm that I owned at one point I'm not obligated to tell them anything what so ever. And I see no reason to share any such information at all, the govt is not entitled to and should not have access to such information. I know that I have acted legally and if the state feels other wise they have to prove it. Plus the govt should have no problem proving a criminal case without a record of custody. I have all my guns insured so that is how I prove what is mine and not for replacement purposes. Maybe if I didn't really know the person I might but do a bill of sale but not regularly. ~2cents Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Nice bill of sale, but a little over kill for me.. The only info i get is to clear my name in case of a crime.. All i usually want is the buyers/sellers name/signature, date, make/serial# and "AS IS" As a buyer/seller the other buyer/seller does not need to know my address or DL#. I never buy/sell firearms at my house, most of my private gun transactions go down in the walmart parking lot lol.. Drivers license ID may save either the seller's or buyer's ass in a legal situation. A driver's license or FOID number is required on the Form 4473's. What if either party gives an alias, and on top of that you don't have an address to go with it? DL info is wisely usually included in the bill of sales used by folks around here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
presto_z 125 Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 My 16yo cousin has a fake drivers license that cost him 50bucks, so a DL# is just as good as a persons word in my mind. I have purchased many guns on a first name basis.. In my mind only i should know what firearms i own. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
diamondback 56 Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 In my case, it wasn't so much for the BATFEces as a response to the New Orleans aftermath scenario of "prove it's yours or you ain't gettin' it back". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 My 16yo cousin has a fake drivers license that cost him 50bucks, so a DL# is just as good as a persons word in my mind. I have purchased many guns on a first name basis.. In my mind only i should know what firearms i own. Good and well for you, but hope it never comes back to bite you in the ass. What's in your mind and what's in the real world may be mutually exclusive. You don't think anyone with a decent eye and some smarts couldn't tell a fake DL? Are you advocating falsified documents? Ever worked the door at a bar? I have.You don't have to be Secret Service to spot a fake. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
presto_z 125 Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 (edited) In my case, it wasn't so much for the BATFEces as a response to the New Orleans aftermath scenario of "prove it's yours or you ain't gettin' it back". I am all for keeping your serial numbers written down for your own records just in case they are stolen or destroyed during a fire, natural disaster ect.. In a situation like Katrina "i dont own any firearms". You have the right (not privilege) to bear arms, that should never be taken away. This is why you do not allow police officers into your home without a warrant, keep the door shut in a situation like that and they will move along.. Edited January 21, 2010 by presto_z Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Krom 36 Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 In my case, it wasn't so much for the BATFEces as a response to the New Orleans aftermath scenario of "prove it's yours or you ain't gettin' it back". That makes more sense as a good reason to keep bills of sale... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
presto_z 125 Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 (edited) Good and well for you, but hope it never comes back to bite you in the ass. What's in your mind and what's in the real world may be mutually exclusive. You don't think anyone with a decent eye and some smarts couldn't tell a fake DL? Are you advocating falsified documents? Ever worked the door at a bar? I have.You don't have to be Secret Service to spot a fake. So now i need to validate the authenticity of an ID? I have no clue what any out of state DL looks like, i guess i can only sell to FL residents now... And how am i advocating falsified documents?? Cause my 16yo cousin has a Fake ID? He also smokes pot and shoplifts, does that mean i agree with it?? A fake signature that you believe is real is worth just as much as a real signature. It is a legal binding contract for both parts. Edited January 21, 2010 by presto_z Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vbrtrmn 167 Posted January 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 A bill of sale saved my buddy's ass one time. He was open carrying in his parking lot at his apartment shortly after a crime was committed; an overzealous police officer approached him and asked to see the weapon, which my friend complied with. The officer ran the serial number and it came up stolen, the pistol was purchased private sale with a bill of sale. The officer still wrote him a summons for possession of a stolen firearm, even after he presented the officer with his bill of sale. The next day, he went down to the station and talked to the CLEO and the charges were dropped. It turned out that the pawn shop, where the firearm was purchased didn't list the sale properly and inadvertently reported it stolen, if my buddy didn't have the bill of sale with the seller's information on it, he'd probably have had to spend a shit ton of cash on a lawyer and potentially not be allowed to own firearms. I use a bill of sale to protect my ass, if you don't want to use one, that's up to you. Yes, the seller could present you with falsified documentation, but you did your due diligence in at least checking. I was hoping to get more suggestions, like Diamondback posted, not to start a debate on their merit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 (edited) When I sell a gun that I bought from a gunshop or gunshow I get a note from the buyer certifying that he is buying it & can do so legally. When I buy or sell guns acquired from private citizens, I wouldn't do paperwork, but make sure I am verbally assured that they can legally purchase. I will encourage the purchaser call the sheriff to confirm it's not hot, & I ALWAYS call the sheriff & confirm that the gun I buy from "Joe citizen" is legit. That being said, I don't sell my guns very often & there are people I know that I just wouldn't sell a gun to period. This includes a good friend right after his girl cheats on him or something like that. I am not for registration, but I assume when a background check is run on me by the State police, & I hear the serial # of the gun I'm purchasing being given out to the background checker (the state police) I would be foolish to think it wasn't kept on record & I would like to have something to show the cop at my door should the guy I sell it to turn around & sell it to a felon for a premium who then turns around & commits a crime with it. A couple years ago, a foreign student (I think from france, he looked Arab, but the media didn't specify) Bought a gun from a guy's Pawn/Gun shop that I have known since I was 13 & shot up a bunch of college students. The owner rejected him the first time because his paperwork wasn't in order. The soon to be shooter got his papers in order, bought the gun & shot a bunch of kids up in front of an under 21 dance club. The next day, the media was at the shop talking to the owner on camera, in the shop. They found out where the shooter bought the gun real quick. So don't tell me it's not kept on record. But every cloud has a silver lining.... After the story aired, the shop owner was flooded with calls & almost sold out his inventory. He has a lot of cool long guns, SKSs AKs ARs Mossy 500s & 1100 police "tacticooled" out, ect.... And the report ended up being a big commercial for him. Everyone could now see he sold those types of firearms! Now his gun profits are better than the pawnshop profits, & he has started setting up 9 table end sections at gunshows. and as a bonus, people tend to hawk guns at his shop, many of which they bought from him & he profits twice. Three times if they don't honor their ticket. (you can keep renewing for a $15.00 fee every 60 days, so he's not swiping customers guns) But yeah, I cover my ass & would advise others to as well. Don't make laws where there aren't any, but realize, especially if you're a guy who lives alone, when a gun that has ever had your name attached to it becomes involved in a crime, you may find yourself talking to the cops & explaining your whereabouts if you can only say "I sold it & I was home alone watching TV last night". So I'd just keep a piece of C.Y.A. available should need be, but no need to do more than required by law or common sense. Edit, I guess The post above kinda proved a couple of points. I started replying a bit ago & got involved in a phone call. Not trying to repeat you Vbrtrmn. As for the recipt, I really like it, The only change I would think of right off, for my situation is The buyers & sellers signature & AS-IS part listed before the contact info, so that part could be easily torn off if not needed. Great idea by the way. Edited January 21, 2010 by Paulyski Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
diamondback 56 Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Actually, MM's is pretty close to what I use minus the IL-specific stuff like FOID (replaced with, since usually I deal with fellow WA Arms Collectors members, a slot for WAC Member and CPL #s), aside from that mine has two versions, one each for me and whoever I'm buying from. (The roles would be reversed if I were selling one. (Which ain't likely, but ya never know...) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ThirtyAughtSix 101 Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 (edited) What's a private sale? Oh wait, that's one of those things where you have to fill out the same paperwork as a dealer and do a nics check out here... EDIT: I couldn't even have my daddy give me a firearm without filling out paper work and running a check in my great firearms manufacturer state... Edited January 21, 2010 by ThirtyAughtSix Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaPD 408 Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Thanks for the Bill of Sale link. I appreciate it and so should others. There are several reasons for collecting a Bill of Sale from any purchase or sale that you make to keep for your records. 1. If the weapon is ever lost or stolen, you have the serial and model numbers available for the police to place the firearm onto NCIC as lost or stolen. Your name is also placed with it so that the recovering agency can contact you and make efforts to return the firearm. No serial number/No list as stolen on NCIC and the firearm is gone forever. 2. If you sell the firearm and it suddenly appears left behind in a crime scene, you can show proof that you no longer own the firearm and direct the investigation towards the right person and away from yourself. This one saved me about 15 years ago before I was involved in Law Enforcement. A firearm that I had formerly owned turned up at the scene of a burglary. Officers showed up at my house a few days later with questions about the firearm in question. I simply offered them a copy of the Bill of Sale and they went about their business. While firearms are not registered on the Federal level to an individual, the serial number is and can be tracked to the place/shop of sale. The shop is then contacted and the paperwork showing the purchaser information is located. That is how they found me and we have found others as well. 3. Bottom line, it is just a good CYA (Cover Your A#@ measure) Just some thoughts Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 (edited) You did a nice job and your heart is clearly in the right place, but this is what more then the law requires. We are talking about a RIGHT, would you suggest that a similar form be filled out prior to joining a religion or before exercising your right of free speech? Edited January 21, 2010 by Azrial 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Good and well for you, but hope it never comes back to bite you in the ass. What's in your mind and what's in the real world may be mutually exclusive. You don't think anyone with a decent eye and some smarts couldn't tell a fake DL? Are you advocating falsified documents? Ever worked the door at a bar? I have.You don't have to be Secret Service to spot a fake. So now i need to validate the authenticity of an ID? I have no clue what any out of state DL looks like, i guess i can only sell to FL residents now... And how am i advocating falsified documents?? Cause my 16yo cousin has a Fake ID? He also smokes pot and shoplifts, does that mean i agree with it?? A fake signature that you believe is real is worth just as much as a real signature. It is a legal binding contract for both parts. If you don't want to cover your ass adequately that is your privilege albeit a simplistic and unwise decision. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bounce12 407 Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 You did a nice job and your heart is clearly in the right place, but this is what more then the law requires. We are talking about a RIGHT, would you suggest that a similar form be filled out prior to joining a religion or before exercising your right of free speech? I wholeheartedly agree. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vbrtrmn 167 Posted February 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2010 (edited) You did a nice job and your heart is clearly in the right place, but this is what more then the law requires. We are talking about a RIGHT, would you suggest that a similar form be filled out prior to joining a religion or before exercising your right of free speech? Bearing arms is a RIGHT, not commerce. Unfortunately, the law has made is so that a seller could get in trouble if he doesn't have one. Frankly, I don't have a few thousand to drop on a lawyer to protect my rights, if a gun I were to sell to someone was used in a crime. I guess a good question back is: Would you sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement for a company you want to work for? An NDA essentially limits your freedom of speech about products and trade secrets the company is involved in. Even better: Would you fill out paperwork to do an FFL transfer? Honestly, I don't really care what your answer is, just something to think about. I did make several updates to address privacy concerns. You can now hide any line item at the top and most of the ones in the contact area. Edited February 10, 2010 by vbrtrmn Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rockmup 12 Posted February 10, 2010 Report Share Posted February 10, 2010 In my case, it wasn't so much for the BATFEces as a response to the New Orleans aftermath scenario of "prove it's yours or you ain't gettin' it back". I really hate to stray to far off topic but ....... It is your 2A right. Not a privilege. Thankfully that mindset should be coming to an end with a change in the Mayors office in the chocolate . Officers still try and ask for proof even at traffic stops. Best thing is tell them to pound sand and they can call their Captain while you call your Lawyer. Seems to work for those that say they have tried it or some version of it anyway, As for a Bill of Sale. We are not required to do any such thing so I dont. The only thing I want is your weapon or your cash. Its not my job to hold your hand and make sure your a good little boy. I can only use my best judgment and have refused to sell more than once because my spidy senses were all tingly. Nice form if you need it though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JulianH 4 Posted February 10, 2010 Report Share Posted February 10, 2010 So now i need to validate the authenticity of an ID? I have no clue what any out of state DL looks like, i guess i can only sell to FL residents now... WTF??? YES!!! It is illegal to sell a firearm to a resident of a different state. As in a federal felony! People have been busted at gun shows for innocently selling a gun to a resident of a neighboring state. As to validating ID, if it looks like a legit in-state ID, that should be good enough for Johnny Law, but it's never a bad idea to write down the SN and name of the buyer. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rockmup 12 Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 So now i need to validate the authenticity of an ID? I have no clue what any out of state DL looks like, i guess i can only sell to FL residents now... WTF??? YES!!! It is illegal to sell a firearm to a resident of a different state. As in a federal felony! People have been busted at gun shows for innocently selling a gun to a resident of a neighboring state. Might want to check your info there. Thats NOT true for all States. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 If they have a dwelling in state you may sell to them, the ATF recognizes that people can live in more than one state. From the ATF website. State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. An alien who is legally in the United States shall be considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in the State and has resided in the State for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm. The following are examples that illustrate this definition: Example 1. A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip. Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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