Tapco G2 disconnecter issue... Damndest thing.

[Paulyski 2,227]

So, yeah. My little S-12 lady is pretty, but she's no "safe queen" by any means. I hammer the shit out of her. 3" Magnum .00 buck is my favorite. & now that I'm filling the MD-20 with .00 buck & slugs, she's gettin' pounded pretty hard.

 

I recently experienced an issue with the Hammer failing to engage into the disconnecter. Upon inspection, I found that the hammer had worn the disconnecter substantially, to the point that the disconnecter is quite sharp & also it created a bur at the tip & the hammer occasionally gets hung up on it & comes to rest on the FP maybe 1 out of 50 shots on my very last shoot.

 

Turns out the metal is a tad soft.

Looks like I will be dicking with my factory disconnecter to make it work with the G2.

I will go this route because as any of us woh have converted have found, Russian steel is truly hard & durable.

I just don't feel comfortable replacing it with another soft disconnecter & if the SHTF & it happened again, I'd be screwed with nothing to replace it & tempting the slam-fire fates.

 

HEY TAPCO.... WOULD YA HARDEN THAT SHIT!?!

Damn!

 

And yes. I am shooting on the correct settings.

 

 

ETA:

The ridge in that pic is not where the light reflects off the polished surface, it's the extent of the wear from the hammer on the disconnecter. That's where it starts, & you can see where it's worn so thin that it's breaking off & making burrs.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Paulyski

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Maybe you got things too hot when you were doing all that polishing....

 

[Paulyski 2,227]

Nah,

I was holding it in my bare hand while I did it.

I'm cool, but not so cold that I can hold metal that's that hot.

 

EDIT

I quench when stuff I'm holding gets warm.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Paulyski

[nalioth 405]

Replacing it with a Russian disco is just going to cause your hammer to be worn by the "hard Russian steel".

 

Might as well buy a good FCG and replace all of it.

[Paulyski 2,227]

Replacing it with a Russian disco is just going to cause your hammer to be worn by the "hard Russian steel".

 

Might as well buy a good FCG and replace all of it.

Who is more durable in your experience?

Is that why you tend to like the Texas AK FCG?

[nalioth 405]

[ae13291 3]

make your own disconnector

Edited March 4, 2010 by BlackLs1Ttop

[rob-cubed 74]

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Paul, this goes against conventional wisdom, but I'm going to put it out there anyway. Slug and Buck" magnum ammo is made for pumps and breech loaders where maximum impact must be achieved with limited to extremely limited ammo capacity.

 

An occasional (self defense drill) snack with the stuff might be alright, but I don't think the S12 was designed to shoot it as a steady diet. With regard to the G2 FCG, I agree with you. It's a generic AK FCG, and was never intended to deal with the forces that the ammo you are cycling is capable of generating.

 

There was a thread not long ago, where a member had been shooting magnum slugs, his barrel retaining pin went away (remember that one?), and everyone was puzzling over whether this was a factory defect, or some boneheaded thing and American gunsmith had done.

 

Well I was looking the images over - and had a BFO (blinding flash of the obvious). The Izhmash barrel retaining pin isn't made to withstand those kinds of forces over a sustained period. It made sense. I take these guns apart all the time, and the retaining pins aren't made of the same quality of steel as the rest of the gun. It is without question much softer, and theres a reason for this. The harder the pin material is, the more brittle when it reaches it's absolute stress point. Izhmash, who has been building these things for a while uses a softer metal because it is a bit more forgiving -- up to a point.

 

Obviously on the gun in question the pin material was pushed beyond its tolerance levels and sheared off allowing the barrel to creep forward 1/8" of an inch, and loosening the gas tube. Had the owner continued to shoot the gun with the ammo he was using, there is no doubt in my mind that the barrel pin would have given way on the opposite side as well and that his barrel may have ended up at some undermined position down range. And the rest of his gun? Who knows?

 

Clearly -- that would be "bad"....lol.

 

So, I'm guessing it isn't the gun in this case, but the ammo that lies at the root of the problem. Russian FCG's are not made of substantially harder steel than the G2. I have drilled and ground, and hybridized (nutty professor stuff) enough of them to be able to state this without reservation.

 

This is my humble opinion on the matter. The S12 is a box fed semi auto 12 gauge shotgun designed to cycle a range of ordinary law enforcement grade 12 gauge ammo at a high enough cyclic rate that Izhmash never deemed it necessary to make a factory gun in FA trim. This is probably because the firearm is fully capable of delivering more payload on target at a given SA cyclic rate than an FA AK, and the math bears this out.

 

At 600 rounds per minute the 7.62 x 39 platform is theoretically capable of delivering around 600 7.62mm projectiles to a target area within a sixty second period. That's it. With a low to medium recoil, nine pellet 00 buck round, at a leisurely semi automatic pace of just four rounds per second, the SA S12 is capable of delivering 2,160 8.4mm projectiles to the same target area, in the same period of time. In terms of volume - this is roughly equivalent to 2400 7.62 rounds in the space of a minute.

 

Consider for a moment that a dylan minigun is capable of delivering 3000 .30 cal rounds per minute on target (albeit sustained), and you have a single barreled weapon with short term (capacity limited) on target capabilities just 20% short of that of a Dylan minigun (3000 rounds per minute).

 

Unscientifically, the more powerful the round, the longer the time between trigger pulls to reacquire the target. If you are shooting 15 pellet 00 magnum loads and your target acquisition times between loads is double that of the lighter nine pellet loads, you are actually putting 20% less lead on target than with the lighter, faster load.

 

If one wants to totally devastate a target with a couple of rounds, a breech loader or pump purpose built for this is definitely the way to go. If it is about getting the maximum amount of lead within a target area within the shortest period of time -- the S12 semi auto box loader is the way to go.

 

One can put a massive breech loader round into an S12, but the more I think about it, that doesn't mean one should.

 

Paul, I have read enough of your great posts to recognize that you are a bit of a wild man, and inclined to push a weapons platform to its absolute limits. I respectfully submit that you have found them, and maybe then some!

 

Michael

[Eric Pate 478]

Uhhh, the Saiga 12 should eat 3" magnums and slugs all day long.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Uhhh, the Saiga 12 should eat 3" magnums and slugs all day long.

 

To each his own...lol Smoke em' if you got em'.

 

Michael

[nalioth 405]

Uhhh, the Saiga 12 should eat 3" magnums and slugs all day long.

 

To each his own...lol Smoke em' if you got em'.

 

Michael

HEH HEH

 

WaffenSchmied'll be around when you launch your barrel

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Uhhh, the Saiga 12 should eat 3" magnums and slugs all day long.

 

To each his own...lol Smoke em' if you got em'.

 

Michael

HEH HEH

 

WaffenSchmied'll be around when you launch your barrel

:lolol: :lolol: :lolol:

[mike12345 18]

if you have a torch or something to heat the part to a glowing red, you can case harden the disconnector yourself.

 

You heat the part to cherry red and immerse it in motor oil. Then wash it with dish soap, heat it again to blue hot (blue is prior to red), and immerse it in water. The part is then case hardened.

 

If you email tapco, they may sell you just the disconnector or even send you a new one.

Edited March 4, 2010 by mike123456

[Paulyski 2,227]

Well, I'll be monitoring the gun.

There is another area that caught my attention on how the gun is wearing, note the top of the barrel in the pic.

I need to clean that up a bit. The carreir seems to be doing it.

 

 

For me to ditch my power rounds wound be like asking a tweeker to start drinking coffee instead... It ain't gonna happen.

 

I'll closely monitor the gun & see how it wears.

One thing to note is that my trunnion is in tact with no warpage, the other stuff can be dealt with.

 

I do like the Texas AK trigger face (as we have discussed before) so I think I'll give it a whirl.

I could harden it myself, but that may make it brittle.

 

Whatever I do, I think I'll make sure I fit the factory disconnecter to the Texas trigger to make it work, then take it out, put in the Texas disconnecter, then wrap the Factory job in a piece of rag, pop the rear plate off the wood buttstock & just keep the factory disconnecter & sleeve section in the extra hole, just to have it at the ready in case the gun was ever in a SHTF situation, where my shop was inaccessible for a prolonged period of time & the gun is under heavy usage.

I may even find another sheer pin for the barrel just in case & keep it there too.

(Reminds me of my jeep, keeping an extra driveline, U-joints, & spider gears in it for field use)

 

I'll do this, because I have the gun for fun, but "just in case" too.

 

I would be interested how the disconnecters hold up on the older F.A. S-12s?

I have a feeling those have seen some abuse over time.

 

I may be pushing the limits on mine, but I'd rather know what to expect from going up in the woods than deal with issues in "the field".

 

I just figured I'd post this topic to give a healthy heads-up to all the members about an issue that I've never seen posted & would have never thought of before getting there myself.

 

Keep your eyes open... Disconnecters prevent slam-fire.

[mike12345 18]

just looked at your vid here...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtfUPiXJenc

 

 

Your gun is way over gassed with those 3in mags, you can tell because the ejecting shells are going way too far. You may want to use a lighter load because your bolt is going too fast and beating the shit out of the rear trunion. Take a look at it.

Edited March 4, 2010 by mike123456

[David Mark 2,452]

Hey Paul,

You might want to look in to a Gunfixr plug. I don't have one on my S12 but its my understanding that they help on both ends of the gas spectrum (over gassed and under gassed).

I think mike123456 might be on to something. I've watched that video and never noticed before but it looks like you ejected empties are heading into low altitude orbit.

 

Have fun but be safe my friend.

[Paulyski 2,227]

Waff, good stats on FA rates, been wondering those but never searched.

 

just looked at your vid here...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtfUPiXJenc

 

 

Your gun is way over gassed with those 3in mags, you can tell because the ejecting shells are going way too far. You may want to use a lighter load because your bolt is going too fast and beating the shit out of the rear trunion. Take a look at it.

Hey Paul,

You might want to look in to a Gunfixr plug. I don't have one on my S12 but its my understanding that they help on both ends of the gas spectrum (over gassed and under gassed).

I think mike123456 might be on to something. I've watched that video and never noticed before but it looks like you ejected empties are heading into low altitude orbit.

 

Have fun but be safe my friend.

 

Yeah, it really does throw them.

Non-magnum isn't nearly as far.

 

It's had a touch of port work. It was the prime example of a vodka special before the port work.

I think I may try Mike's Gunfixer plug, & see how it handles it.

I feel I may need the option of a further reduction, as it needs all its the gas for the low brass from the drum, yet magnum flys.

The trunnion's still looking good.

A while ago my Pops got hit with a shell & he was surprised. Not nearly as surprised as when an expended cartrage from my P-64 hit him from 30 feet away though... He thought a richochet shot him at first. (The P-64 really throws brass.)

(nobody stands to the right when I shoot that little bad boy any longer)

 

I think I'll go take a measure & check exactly how much gas I'm running.

(get to play with my new press. )

 

Still, regardless of gas issues, I find myself surprised at this wearing.

AKs have VERY long life spans & I wouldn't be surprised if some FA AK out there silently holds the world's record.

I have only run a few thousand rounds over that disconnecter.

I can't swap th AK parts, due to 922r, but I would like to see how they held up under the same conditions.

Edited March 5, 2010 by Paulyski

[Paulyski 2,227]

if you have a torch or something to heat the part to a glowing red, you can case harden the disconnector yourself.

 

You heat the part to cherry red and immerse it in motor oil. Then wash it with dish soap, heat it again to blue hot (blue is prior to red), and immerse it in water. The part is then case hardened.

 

If you email tapco, they may sell you just the disconnector or even send you a new one.

Think that method would make them brittle around the axis's?

I would want to do both the Hammer & disconnecter to make them equal hardness.

 

I have a torch.

 

[Donkismash 81]

Replacing it with a Russian disco is just going to cause your hammer to be worn by the "hard Russian steel".

 

Might as well buy a good FCG and replace all of it.

 

 

Replacing it with a Russian disco is just going to cause your hammer to be worn by the "hard Russian steel".

 

Might as well buy a good FCG and replace all of it.

Who is more durable in your experience?

Is that why you tend to like the Texas AK FCG?

I like the Texas AK Triggers for a number of reasons.

 

Among them are:

• Ridged trigger face

• Improved geometry between the trigger and hammer

• New disco spring and Bulgarian style retaining wire with each set

 

 

 

 

and thats why I always suggest the Texas AK trigger set....same rugged design as the original and a smooth pull

Edited March 5, 2010 by Donkismash

[Eric Pate 478]

Uhhh, the Saiga 12 should eat 3" magnums and slugs all day long.

 

To each his own...lol Smoke em' if you got em'.

 

Michael

HEH HEH

 

WaffenSchmied'll be around when you launch your barrel

 

Yall're funny.

Nalioth, I'm kinda surprised that you don't share this opinion. You don't think an S12 should ba able to handle magnum loads?

[nalioth 405]

Yall're funny.

Nalioth, I'm kinda surprised that you don't share this opinion. You don't think an S12 should ba able to handle magnum loads?

Anything will wear out when constantly used at it's max limits. That is what WaffenSchmied is saying.

 

How long do you think a Porsche or Ferrari or Lambo (or any high-dollar well-made car) would last if you owned your own 100,000 square mile island, and had a race track built around it's periphery and ran the car around the track at it's max speed every day?

[Stansplace 414]

After reading the entire post I think Paulski did the same thing I did. That was polish the case hardening off the g2. I had a similar issue and rockwell tested the area I polished against an area I hadnt. Guess what. The non polished areas were plenty hard on the tapco.

[uzitiger 193]

I sometimes experience problems with the Tapco FCG where the trigger won't reset due to the disconnector sticking. I would replace the FCG but I would have to grind the hammer to fit in the S-12 receiver.

 

I did not experience this with the Century FCG but I had to grind off the disconnector tail to get rid of the painful trigger slap.