Short Gas System S-12 Operation Issues

[Paulyski 2,227]

If you've test fired it in all different configurations & you're positive it's an undergassing issue,just open the ports a touch.

[Stansplace 414]

It is so OBVIOUS that the hammer and bolt need polishing. Look at those crappy cast marks on it. I mean come on, that is Saiga 101.

[Boba Debt 350]

After Looking a tons of threads and re-examining my gun I think I have 3 different issues:

 

1. 
    
   
2. The Hammer needs work. It sits too high and it takes a lot to get the carrier past it. I will order the spring Jack Travers sells tomorrow and try to re-profile my hammer.
    
   
3. I can only see one gas port. I tried to photograph this but I cant get the angle right but as far as I can see and feel there is a single gas port in my barrel. I don't think I have the tools required to remove the gas block so how can I fix this?
    
   
4. The chamber needs work. I can see a step on the left side. I need to taper this better.
   

 

 

Of the above issues which should I address first?

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

If you can hold off and don't do anything to it, I'll call you tomorrow.

 

[6500rpm 670]

I strongly suggest you call and have a calm conversation with Alex and let them fix it. 1st-they are the builder. 2nd-if the choke is coming off putting it in SBS violation grey area I would think that would concern everyone involved. 3rd-from all I know of Alex from his posts and PM's, the guy knows his shit and is very capable of fixing it. If it's a problem with something he did and there's a implied warranty, he should eat the repair cost. If it's due to something you've done, if he fixes it, then it's on you to pay repair costs. I know the whole tone of things between you two sounds bad, but if you both step up to the plate I'd bet you can work it out. Unless you have a good understanding about profiling the hammer or have a original to compare it with, don't F with it. The hammer needs to have enough heigth to it to allow it to be pushed down far enough for the disconnector to grab it and should hit the firing pin square. The JT spring will lighten up your trigger pull feel and probably has less upward pressure on the bolt/carrier but I doubt it's going to fix any actual problems. If it's under-gassed a lighter recoil spring has a better chance of helping your issue. None of this will fix the choke issue. You bought a race gun with a shit load of porting, it might take a good deal of understanding to make it work the way you want it to. Here's a tip-look at the R&R racing vids that Robert has posted on his site and take notice on how far the shells are ejecting on the light shot loads-it's typically not far, but far enough to work. That's the careful ballance it takes when that much gas is being bled off. Once again, if at all possible, let Alex or a qualified smith fix it.

[elia.jon1 1]

if you need some smoothness, then make sure your parts count is good, and use the stock hammer....it will save you alot of trouble...

[Boba Debt 350]

I strongly suggest you call and have a calm conversation with Alex and let them fix it.

 

He is not responding to my PMs or emails.

 

if you need some smoothness, then make sure your parts count is good, and use the stock hammer....it will save you alot of trouble...

 

It does have the factory hammer installed

[Boba Debt 350]

I took the S-12 by a local gun shop today and asked them to test the amount of pull required to cycle the bolt carrier with out any magazine inserted.

 

It exceed 17 pound per pull and sometimes went as high as 22 pounds.

 

Does that sound normal?

[madmax4x4 68]

I strongly suggest you call and have a calm conversation with Alex and let them fix it.

 

He is not responding to my PMs or emails.

 

if you need some smoothness, then make sure your parts count is good, and use the stock hammer....it will save you alot of trouble...

 

It does have the factory hammer installed

 

That's what I thought from the pics. If it has a tapco trigger and disco use a tapco hammer.

 

ETA and doing mods to a gun your self before testing it is not a good idea. Just like a stock gun you have to be responsible for your own work and can't pass the buck to another builder. When I hear things like, brazed the old gas ports shut, remove rail from the gas system with a band saw and grinder, and metal epoxy.

Edited April 7, 2010 by madmax4x4

[Paulyski 2,227]

I took the S-12 by a local gun shop today and asked them to test the amount of pull required to cycle the bolt carrier with out any magazine inserted.

 

It exceed 17 pound per pull and sometimes went as high as 22 pounds.

 

Does that sound normal?

I'm assuming a scale like one would use to weigh fish would be used to test that one?

I don't currently have one, but I figured I'd throw that out there for anyone who does, as I am rather interested in the outcome.

[Boba Debt 350]

I'm assuming a scale like one would use to weigh fish would be used to test that one?

I don't currently have one, but I figured I'd throw that out there for anyone who does, as I am rather interested in the outcome.

 

 

Yes, it was a fish scale. He tried the digital trigger pull scale but it only went up to 15 pounds

[Boba Debt 350]

[Paulyski 2,227]

After Looking a tons of threads and re-examining my gun I think I have 3 different issues:

 

 

 

[*]I can only see one gas port. I tried to photograph this but I cant get the angle right but as far as I can see and feel there is a single gas port in my barrel. I don't think I have the tools required to remove the gas block so how can I fix this?

 

If you're low on tools, try this if you go that route. But as you have a short gas system, & shorter than factory barrel you may need custom sizes. Look in Tromix's section. I believe Tony actually posted some sizes to play with.

 

& keep your angles correct.

 

[Boba Debt 350]

[SaigaNoobie 66]

I can see several things I would do right away that would make it run much better. Since you are local to me, it would be very easy to get together and do said work...BUT...I'm not real sure I would want to touch something belonging to a person who gets pissed when everything doesn't go his way, and starts posting threads all over the place like the ones you did here. I think it is very unfair to Mr Wakal the way you have handled this. If your aim was to discredit him or somehow make him look bad, I can tell you it might have worked if I didn't know him better.

Above all, I think it is completely uncalled for, for ANYONE to resort to posting PMs or emails in public, without their author's explicit permission. That's just plain f*#king wrong...

 

I know several other members here who place themselves so high on a pedestal, they think they are above keeping things private, and use other people's words, usually things that were said in the heat of the moment, as a way to bolster their arguments, while airing dirty laundry...when they know down deep inside they are in the wrong....

To me, doing something like that is nothing better than backstabbing betrayal, and the worst abuse of trust. It's no one else's business here what two people say to each other in PRIVATE. Don't we get enough drama around here without that kind of stuff? I mean damn dude...a simple thread about "how can I fix my gun?" would have been just great. That's what I like to see personally. You really could have left the Alex and the drama, completely out of this. You beef with him should remain between you and him.

 

There's a REASON that PMs are called PRIVATE MESSAGES. When anything otherwise becomes accepted as normal, then that sucks. If I was a mod I would delete shit like that just as soon as it was posted, no matter WHO posted it....spoiler or not. Thank you for at least betraying his trust in a clickable link....and no I didn't even open them because they are none of my business.

 

I think this may be the first time I agree with Cobra.

 

Alex is a top guy and I've spoken to him multiple times about his mid-barrel comp and the proper attachment. Mine works even with a regular length gas system.

 

Here's the issue Boba. You got a gun, modified it and then complained it didn't work and then aired dirty laundry in an uncalled for fashion. Tell you what, buy a shotgun, modify it and then try to send it to Cadiz for warranty work. EVERY PLACE ON THIS FORUM it says to fire a gun before you modify it. Why would it be different in this case? If you buy a car, do you instantly change out parts and then turn it on for the first time?

 

Knowing Alex, chances are you fucked up your own gun and then want to try and bash a good guy.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Replacing that spring is just a bandaid. All it did was reduce the upward presure the hammer exerts on the bolt carrier, lessening the effect of the friction caused by the bad mating surface you have there, which is still there. If you want it to really run as smooth a it can, those friction issues still need to be addressed. It could make the difference in whether or not the gun continues to run all day (or whether it gets dirty after a couple of boxes of shells and quits on you) at a match, your favorite range you may go out of your way to visit, or possibly something more important.

 

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Speaking of unnecessary friction....I really don't see why you had to put it that way saiganoobie. Why keep on and on with the exaggerated comments about me like that? Does it just make you feel good inside? God damn I could say today is Thursday April 8th and somebody on here would have to disagree, just because it was me who said it....

 

[SaigaNoobie 66]

Cobra. Please re-read what I said. I think you misread it.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Cobra. Please re-read what I said. I think you misread it.

 

No...I didn't misread it. You said:

 

"I think this may be the first time I agree with Cobra"...

 

Now really man, think about that a sec. I think if you look at it realistically, there's no way in hell I have posted as many times as I have, and that was really the first time you ever agreed with me. I just don't believe that. It's a derogatory statement. Makes it sound like there's something wrong with everything I have ever posted....either that or you are one seriously disagreeable MF...

I may get pissed off easy and post some very controversial shit, but I'm not that bad dude. Gimme a friggin break already.

 

[SaigaNoobie 66]

Ok you're right. Second time. I agreed once when you said we weren't going to continue a thread in the "fight club".

 

To be honest, most of your posts are novels and I don't read the entire thing, so there is a possibility that there's something in one I've never read that I agree with.

 

But man, I was being nice and civil to you. No need to start anything.

 

Have a good night

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

So that's what you call being NICE huh? No thanks dude. Just keep it to yourself from now on...and BTW I didn't start anything....

 

[Boba Debt 350]

[Paulyski 2,227]

[Boba Debt 350]

[Boba Debt 350]

The quad rail wasn't the problem. I had the same frequency of issues with it removed

 

I spent the yesterday morning polishing the bolt, carrier, trigger, hammer and the rails.

 

 

To help with ejections I removed about 1/4" of material on the back side of the ejection grove cut into the received to accommodate the 12 gauge shells

 

 

 

 

So far I have 100% reliability with 00 buck on gas setting 3 and I have 90% reliability with Federal Value Pack on gas setting 3.

 

I tapered the bottom of the #3 slot on the Gunfixers Gas Plug but had the same frequency of issues.

 

I think I need to remove the gas block to see if it is covering up some of the holes.

[Boba Debt 350]

I just removed the choke and the gas block

 

To remove the choke I screwed 3 pieces of 3/4" x 3" x 6" oak together and then I drilled a .875" hole through the center.

 

I took it apart and put it back together around the barrel and then smacked it with a rubber mallet.

 

On the third strike it came off.

 

There does not appear to be any silver solder on this at all

 

 

 

 

I used the shelf bracket method to remove the gas block.

 

As you can see in the picture the holes are not on center. They are smaller then .093" (I could not get a 3/32" drill bit into them and they appear to be drilled straight, instead of at a 45 degree angle.

 

 

 

Only one complete hole was located in the gas block, there was a partial second hole but the third hole was complete covered by the block.

 

 

Looks like I have a lot of work to do.

[Stansplace 414]

I just removed the choke and the gas block

 

To remove the choke I screwed 3 pieces of 3/4" x 3" x 6" oak together and then I drilled a .875" hole through the center.

 

I took it apart and put it back together around the barrel and then smacked it with a rubber mallet.

 

On the third strike it came off.

 

There does not appear to be any silver solder on this at all

 

 

 

 

I used the shelf bracket method to remove the gas block.

 

As you can see in the picture the holes are not on center. They are smaller then .093" (I could not get a 3/32" drill bit into them and they appear to be drilled straight, instead of at a 45 degree angle.

 

 

 

Only one complete hole was located in the gas block, there was a partial second hole but the third hole was complete covered by the block.

 

 

Looks like I have a lot of work to do.

 

 

 

Now you are on the right path. Drill those holes out to the right size and right angle and keep shining and polishing and just give it some TLC. It will be okay. I wouldn't have cut the receiver for the FTE though. I think that was unnecessary.

 

 

[Boba Debt 350]

 

Now you are on the right path. Drill those holes out to the right size and right angle and keep shining and polishing and just give it some TLC. It will be okay. I wouldn't have cut the receiver for the FTE though. I think that was unnecessary.

 

I watched the shells eject and could see some actually catch on that back edge. The shells that caught ended up sticking half way out of the ejection port. Since I made that small mod I have not had that type of FTE.

[Stansplace 414]

Now you are on the right path. Drill those holes out to the right size and right angle and keep shining and polishing and just give it some TLC. It will be okay. I wouldn't have cut the receiver for the FTE though. I think that was unnecessary.

 

I watched the shells eject and could see some actually catch on that back edge. The shells that caught ended up sticking half way out of the ejection port. Since I made that small mod I have not had that type of FTE.

 

Uh, OK, I still don't think that was necessary. Your Saiga 12 is not so unique that it requires a mod that no other S 12 on the planet needs. As I said earlier, it was an unnecessary mod. Your carrier and bolt are not flying backwards fast enough to throw the hull.

 

Your problem is gas and friction. < You see that..... It is a period.

[Boba Debt 350]

I drilled the old holes up to .093, angled them to about 45 degrees and I added a third hole.

 

I had to enlarge the hole in my gas block but if all my measurements were right these should work. I was worried about welding the forth hole shut but a forum member said not to worry about it since the gas block covers it up anyway.

 

Now I need to do some barrel work to the area in front of where the gas block sits to make getting it on easier. The diameter was never change so I would have to start beating it on about 5" from where it sits.