Short Gas System S-12 Operation Issues

[Boba Debt 350]

I have a short gas system S-12 and it has a variety of inconsistent issues that prevent it from getting through a single mag without multiple FTFs or FTEs.

 

The Long Story Short:

 

I sent my gun to Wakal for some simple work which evolved into a trade for a short gas system race gun that was a super deal. When I got the gun back there were some minor problems that I fixed, then I wanted to do some more simple mods to make it more like the gun I wanted.

 

Since I knew Alex for 10 years I didn't bother to test fire the gun before I did the work. Once I did some simple mods I tested the gun and it had multiple FTFs and FTEs with all 4 of my mags. While discussing this via PMs, bad things were said by both sides and now we are really pissed at each other. He offered to fix the gun but at the time I didn’t take him up on his offer because of the way he presented it "Send the fucking gun back".

 

In hind sight I should have taken him up on his offer.

 

If you want the Long Story click this Spoiler Button:

 

 

The Long Story

 

 

I have known Wakal for about 10 years via the net.

 

I sent him my 22" S-12 and $100 for the following work:

 

• 
   
  
• Reduce the barrel to 18.5" including the permanently attached brake/flash hider
  
• Mod the bolt.
  

 

After he received the gun he sent me an email with the following info:

 

Fred and I were pondering your parameters last night, and we came up with a possible solution that gives you more than you were after (and is cheaper). As we understand, you want a soft-shooting short Saiga and like ported muzzle brakes and mid barrel comps. So do we.

 

Between us, we have fifteen or twenty Saigas in various configurations. Our personal "work" guns and a bunch of prototypes and experiments. One of the experiments was a "pre-configured" batch of our favorite setup, short gas system comp'ed rail guns, to sell at matches and gun shows. We have one left, that looks a lot like this one

 

http://www.dreadnaug...un_3gun2008.jpg

 

The thing on the end is the Savage Cutts/Polychoke assembly, with the barrel cut back so it is just over 18" to the end of the welded part. The gas system is cut back to allow functionality with light loads and better efficiency on the mid-barrel compensator, tuned for reliablity, and angle ported. A steel Pictinnny rail is welded over the gas system (bolt on ones tend to wriggle), and all the usual mods (undercut bolt carrier), polished, no side rail) are done to the receiver. This is the softest shooting reliable configuration we have come up with.

 

We can fit your pistol grip and mag system to that gun along with a AK stock, so you could have something to play with until your bullpup parts showed up. Once those got in, we can help build whatever adaptor you need to fit to the short gas system (plus, both of us want to play with it. Normally, a comp is $195 with $100 to fit and port the barrel. Cutting back the gas sytem is $300, and the rail is $100. Since you already have the conversion part pretty much done, nothing for that.

 

Hmm...how about swapping your Saiga for ours (with your grip/trigger guard and mag well), plus $350? Less the C-note you already paid, that would be $250 additional.

 

Interested?

 

I jumped on his offer instantly.

 

When I received the gun I realized that the short gas system put the gas block right where the trigger had to go so the Bull Pup Project was pretty much dead. But I loved the gun so it wasn't a problem.

 

I also noticed the following small issues but wasn't concerned about them because I knew Alex had an excellent reputation as a gunsmith and he was a friend:

 

• 
   
  
• The mid barrel comp wasn't perpendicular to the bore axis
  
• The old gas ports were not welded over
• The gas plug retention pin was stuck all the way in
  
• The finish was rough
  
• I could not turn the gas plug by hand because it was rubbing against the barrel
  

 

I contacted Alex and used the forum and was able to fix the mid barrel comp and gas plug issues, then I did the following mods:

 

• 
   
  
• Remove the steel picitinny rail from the gas system with a band saw and grinder, the gun never got to hot touch
  
• Brazed the old gas ports shut (Alex planned on doing this anyway)
  
• Attached the front and rear G-3 sight with 495 degree silver solder and filled the seams with metal epoxy.
  
• Added a modified UTG Quad Rail to the gun.
  
• Replaced the wood stock with a T-6 Stock
  

 

Then I test fired the gun and had nothing but problems. I shot over 300 rounds through it before I contacted Alex (I thought I had a new gun that needed to be broken in). Then I found out the following info via PM:

 

I sent you a gun that had several thousand trouble-free rounds through it, as a favor since I realized what you were asking for was WAY out of your price range. That gun should have cost somewhere in the neighborhood of two grand, as do the rest of my top-shelf competition guns. I cut you a deal because we have been friends for years, and gave it to you at material cost (instead of the twenty hours or so of machine time, plus the original (not replacement) price of the base gun). My partner and I were looking forward to helping you build it up as a bullpup (again, at far less than our normal bench fees, if not free) because we thought it was in interesting project conceived by a old friend. Well, from my standpoint, anyway...Fred was in as a favor to me.

 

You hacked on it, welded on it, swapped parts out, and when I try to walk you through the various "balancing act" fixes of the changes you made, accuse me of screwing you over?

 

I thought I was getting the first gun from a batch of guns they made to sell at matches????

 

More bad things were said and then the final straw, while cleaning my gun I noticed the choke had moved forward 1/8". I smacked it with a rubber mallet and it easily moved back up against the machined shoulder. This really pissed me off because I could get into legal trouble over this.

 

I was really pissed at Alex and explained the choke issue and once again he blamed me saying

 

Send the fucking gun back.

 

I was holding the choke straight when Fred was heating the silver solder...I have no idea what you have done to it, and I've had enough of your ranting and incompetent attempts at garage gunsmithing. You have three goddamn ports...one large and two small, one centered and two angled at the edge of the gas block. We drilled all three the same size, then took the gun apart and redrilled the center until until the fucking gun cycled. We do the same fucking thing every fucking time because it fucking works.

 

Put all four magazines in the fucking box. I'll get the gun running AGAIN and sent it back. I normally talk people through working these guns up, but you are a Special Case. Everyone gets those from time to time.

 

 

After I received this pm I wasn't exactly confident that Alex could work on my gun subjectively. This is the only place that a vendor can abuse a customer and be applauded for it. Coupled with the fact that we are friends it made it even worse.

 

So I decided to cease communications with him and use the forum resources to fix my gun

 

 

 

I would like to try some preliminary trouble shooting to see if I can fix it before I hire someone or send it back to Alex (if either of those are even an option):

 

Here is a list of mods I did once I had the gun.

 

• 
   
  
• Remove the steel picitinny rail from the gas system with a band saw and grinder, the gun never got to hot touch
  
• Brazed the old gas ports shut (Alex planned on doing this anyway)
  
• Attached the front and rear G-3 sight with 495 degree silver solder and filled the seams with metal epoxy.
  
• Added a modified UTG Quad Rail to the gun.
  
• Replaced the wood stock with a T-6 Stock
  

 

BUT the main problem I have right now I that I shot the choke loose, Before I do anything I think it's imperative to permanently attach this part.

 

Does anyone know an easy way to press this off without damaging my gun?

 

Once I get that issue resolved I try to will post pictures of the gun to see if we can fix the other issues.

 

 

 

 

Here is a shot of the gun, she's pretty, too bad it doesn't shoot

 

Edited March 29, 2010 by Boba Debt

[Stansplace 414]

Pointing out the obvious, there are too many holes in the gun. Where does it build any pressure?

 

If you pull the bolt back like you are charging the gun, is it smooth? When you let the bolt go slowly by hand (don't let it go) does it hang or stop anywhere while traveling back into battery? If so you need to reprofile your hammer and bolt carrier. You know, slick it up. It's posted everywhere around here. One final question, why are you trying to remove something you desperately want to have permanently attached? Tap it back on with a soft hammer and take it to where a tig welder is. RFN. Not silver solder.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Stansplace

[BobAsh 582]

How many topics does this problem need? It seems punitive at this point, which hurts your credibility IMO.

 

Look, Alex is a personal friend of mine and there's no way he lied to you or ripped you off.

 

I really am sorry that you're having a problem making your gun run. But, it not always obvious how we screw up our guns.

 

My sincere hope is that you haven't pissed Alex off to the extent that he won't work on your gun, but everybody has a limit.

 

Rather than creating more threads about it, try to contact him with an apology for the accusations you made and hope for the best. Good luck.

[vinnivanhood 17]

Seems to me that all the holes in the barrel would completely defeat the usefulness of the mid barrel comp. since there wouldnt be any gas left for it to use.

[bigj480 203]

I will state the obvious and state that you should have tested the gun before attempting any further modifications. If you do this and it has problems, you send it back before making more modifications. At this point there is no way to know if the problem is something that you have done or not, so you shouldn't expect him to fix it for free. Perhaps you should contact him again and suggest that y'all start over. Perhaps you should tell him that if the problem is determined by them to be the result of something that you did, you will pay the FULL cost of the repairs. It's strange that you chose not to include your emails to them. It seems obvious that you said something in your emails to them that pissed them off, yet your emails are not disclosed. I think that if you are going to make private emails public, the least you owe the other party is to post the ENTIRE conversation. After reading your other thread I want to point our that a used, proven reliable gun would run better than a brand new gun. Yes, he should have been up front about it being used, but a reasonably used gun will not have more problems than a new gun.

Edited March 29, 2010 by bigj480

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Forgive me if I'm missing the point, but why go through all of that trouble just to have an 18.5" barreled S12? Why not just cut the barrel back to the length needed to be legal with a welded on choke and forget about the comp and the addt'l porting beyond the comp? My S12s don't really kick enough to worry about it. I don't get it.... someone enlighten me, please. Is it all about the short gas mid barrel comp look?

 

Good luck with you weapon. It sucks to get one that is fubar'd or get a good one and fubar it. Either way it sucks. I hope it works out for you.

[Paulyski 2,227]

Between us, we have fifteen or twenty Saigas in various configurations. Our personal "work" guns and a bunch of prototypes and experiments. One of the experiments was a "pre-configured" batch of our favorite setup, short gas system comp'ed rail guns, to sell at matches and gun shows. We have one left, that looks a lot like this one

Now that paragraph there should tell anyone who reads it that the thing isn't brand new.

You read what you wanted to hear into it.

 

As for trouble shooting, please refer to my contribution to your feedback thread of the many ways the gas block could have been enlarged / deformed by your methods. You seem to have it saved.

 

I may suggest eating crow on this one & begging him to work on it?

Or looking for a new gas block?

 

Pin the choke, heat & remove then install & pin, or get an SBS stamp to stay legal.

 

Nothing more to say here.

I'm sure that won't break your heart.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Paulyski

[Raoul_Duke 113]

Pointing out the obvious, there are too many holes in the gun. Where does it build any pressure?

 

 

How many topics does this problem need? It seems punitive at this point, which hurts your credibility IMO.

 

 

I will state the obvious and state that you should have tested the gun before attempting any further modifications. If you do this and it has problems, you send it back before making more modifications.

 

 

Forgive me if I'm missing the point, but why go through all of that trouble just to have an 18.5" barreled S12? My S12s don't really kick enough to worry about it. I don't get it.... someone enlighten me, please. Is it all about the short gas mid barrel comp look?

 

One big "NO SHIT!" to all of the above posts!

 

 

 

And to add something constructive: At this point it would appear you need copy Tony's plans for a short gas system . . .

[Boba Debt 350]

[Boba Debt 350]

It's strange that you chose not to include your emails to them. It seems obvious that you said something in your emails to them that pissed them off, yet your emails are not disclosed.

 

 

Here is part 1 of our last PM conversation:

 

 

 

I'm having some issues with the gun.

 

1. It doesn't want to chamber the first round about 50% of the time. This is on fresh fully loaded mag. It also does it when I have 10 rounds in a 12 round mag. It does it on all 4 of my mags.

 

2. It has Fail to Eject issues. On low brass with my Gunfixers plug set to 3, I get a lot of FTEs. On magnum 00 buck with the plug set to 2 I get a lot of FTEs. I tried the 00 buck set on 3 and I got a couple FTEs with 2 full 12 round mags.

 

I have tried a variety of combinations of my original puck and a E-Tac puck with my original Gas Plug and a Gunfixers Plug.

 

I polished the bolt, A LOT which seemed to help a little.

 

I have run 300 rounds of Federal Bulk Pack and about 100 rounds of Remington 00 buck.

 

What do I need to d to get this gun running right?

 

If you want to call me my number is 252 444 6728

 

Thanks

 

 

Yeah, but you work funny hours and I'm not allowed to have a cell phone in the office...calling is tough!

 

Lets see...diagnosing without looking is difficult, but I'll have a go.

 

What, exactly, is it doing on the FTE? Shell half out of the chamber or shell out but not thrown clear? Usual cause is not enough gas...close throws them mostly out, not close to enough hits them about half way out. Those "short gas" guns are made to run with the gas knob wide open with everything but the super-hot loads. I leave mine on "4" all the time... However, if the extractor claw is ripping the rims off, then too much gas...

 

Did you weld over the old gas ports in the barrel?

 

On the failure to feed...that is a harder one. What weight spring are you running in the recoil system? I've noticed that the ten pound springs tend to do that now and then, but the heavier (more standard) springs work fine.

 

Alex

 

 

What, exactly, is it doing on the FTE? A variety of things

 

Shell half out of the chamber or shell out but not thrown clear? Both. Plus somtimes it tries to rechamber the same round. It also stove pipes rounds

 

usual cause is not enough gas...close throws them mostly out, Mine close throws low brass with it set to 3. I do not have a 4 setiing.

 

not close to enough hits them about half way out. Those "short gas" guns are made to run with the gas knob wide open with everything but the super-hot loads. I leave mine on "4" all the time... However, if the extractor claw is ripping the rims off, then too much gas... I have not looked at the rims. I will look the next time.

 

Did you weld over the old gas ports in the barrel? Yes

 

On the failure to feed...that is a harder one. What weight spring are you running in the recoil system? I have no idea

 

I've noticed that the ten pound springs tend to do that now and then, but the heavier (more standard) springs work fine.

 

 

On the operating side...pull your gas plug and look at the scorch marks. That will show where the holes are in relation to the cuts on the plug. I have had to open up the angled holes in the plug on some guns to get more gas flowing.

 

The problems you are describing on ejection sound like not enough gas...try some Taco Bell...no, wait, wrong gas...

 

The feeding side is more confusing, since that gun has been throated rather a lot. Could be the magazines sitting too high and dragging on the bolt?

 

A

 

 

I tried the scorch mark trick. Didn't really have any.

 

When I was cleaning my gun I got a light to look into the gas block. I discovered that I only have one small hole in the barrel. you can clearly see it in the big hole in the gas block.

 

Is it normal to have a single hole?

 

I'm going to be honest.

 

I was relieved to send my gun to you for work. After all we have known each other for 10 years. However, I am concerned that I got my own version of a Vodka Special and I'm not real happy about that.

 

I expected occasional issues but this gun has every kind of issue and they are totally inconsistent.

 

We really need to get this gun operating right so if that means sending it back to you that's what I guess I'll have to do.

 

 

If your goal is to piss me off, you are doing very well.

 

I send you a gun that worked perfectly. You took half the parts off it, hacked on it with a angle grinder, welded over barrel ports, and did gods-know what else to it, and now are having trouble with it and YOU blame ME?

 

I sent you a gun that had several thousand trouble-free rounds through it, as a favor since I realized what you were asking for was WAY out of your price range. That gun should have cost somewhere in the neighborhood of two grand, as do the rest of my top-shelf competition guns. I cut you a deal because we have been friends for years, and gave it to you at material cost (instead of the twenty hours or so of machine time, plus the original (not replacement) price of the base gun). My partner and I were looking forward to helping you build it up as a bullpup (again, at far less than our normal bench fees, if not free) because we thought it was in interesting project conceived by a old friend. Well, from my standpoint, anyway...Fred was in as a favor to me.

 

You hacked on it, welded on it, swapped parts out, and when I try to walk you through the various "balancing act" fixes of the changes you made, accuse me of screwing you over?

 

Damn.

 

One of the reasons I charge so much for Saiga conversion like yours is because there is a LOT of work, and rework, and test firing, and more rework, to get them to run. You are not just dropping in some new parts when working up a short gas conversion...you are basically gutting the entire gun to the bare frame and rebuilding it. The gas ports, recoil springs, hammer spring, and gas piston have to balance to make the gun feed and extract. The mid barrel comp interferes with the gas dwell time, as does the angle porting, which means you have to fiddle with the recoil springs. Too much spring...no ejection. Not enough spring...no feeding. Changing out the hammer springs affects bolt speed...less tension, more speed...which again affects extraction and feeding. Gas port number and size affects how much gas pressure is available to move the piston. Too much gas and the extractor claw overruns (or rips off) the rims. To little gas, and the bolt carrier group doesn't make it all the way to the back of the receiver and you have feed problems. Porting the barrel changes the amount of gas available...Fred was using the old gas ports as vertical ports to combat barrel rise, but welding them over may have changed the pressure (more pressure, since less gas is being bled off)...that is why I asked if the gun has been tearing rims off.

 

Swapping out parts on a weapons system is a lot harder than swapping out purely cosmetic parts on a deactivated Sterling. The parts have to actually DO something, and each affects the whole in some way.

 

This isn't rocket science, but it isn't Legos either.

 

Fred tested your gun with your magazine before he gave it back to me, and I tested it before I sent it to you. It worked fine for us, but that was how it was built up before. It is a different gun now, and needs to be tweaked (in the new configuration) to make it run right. Once we figure out what it wants, then it will be fine.

 

 

Alex

 

Edited March 30, 2010 by Boba Debt

[Boba Debt 350]

It's strange that you chose not to include your emails to them. It seems obvious that you said something in your emails to them that pissed them off, yet your emails are not disclosed.

 

 

Here is part 2 of our last PM conversation:

 

 

 

I have a $1200 gun that can't make it through a magazine and I'm "pissing you off"?????

 

 

Perhaps you should put yourself in my shoes before you go off the deep end and rant about a bunch of stuff you know is bull shit.

You took half the parts off it.

 

I removed the rail. That's it. We discussed this in previous PMs and you never made it sound like it would be an issue. You also knew it had to come off for my modified quad rail to work on it.

 

hacked on it with a angle grinder.

 

Seriously, do you really think I "hacked" on my gun. If you had any idea of the time I spent removing that rail you would feel like a total shit head for saying something like that.

 

 

welded over barrel ports,

 

We discussed this via PM and you even said "Fred thinks the old gas ports help with muzzle rise. I think he is full of crap. But in any event, the two of us had planned on welding it over when you sent it back to fabricate the bracket for the new forend". If welding over the barrel ports was going to cause a problem why did you plan on doing it when I sent the gun back???

 

 

 

and did gods-know what else to it, and now are having trouble with it and YOU blame ME?

 

I replaced the stock with an M-4 style stock, silver soldered the G-3 sight set onto it and added the quad rail.

 

PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW ANY OF THAT WOULD CAUSE ALL OF THE ISSUES I'M HAVING????

 

 

I never asked you to do all the extra work you offered to do. I REALLY appreciated it but what good is it doing me now. I pumped over $300 worth of ammo through this gun and it still can't make it though a full mag of 00 buck with out 2-3 issues. And don't even ask how many isseus I have a mag of low brass

 

 

When I first got the gun back, I liked it so much that I thought turning it into a bull pup would be a disservice to it. Ironically, the shorter gas system would make it very difficult to turn this into a bull pup since the front of the gas block is exactly where the trigger has to go. Even though I the bull pup plan was pretty much gone I was still extremely happy with the gun because it was short and beautiful.

 

Now I want to wrap it around a tree every time I waste a $25 box of ammo on a test fire session..

 

I will do what I have to do to get this gun working. But if your going to get all bitchy about this I'll just figure it out on my own using the resources on the forum.

 

BTW: I'm home all day so if you want to call you have my number.

 

 

What part of "I can't carry a cell phone at work" gives you the most trouble?

 

Right now, I'm up at Fort Bragg. I do have Sunday off, BTW, although I can't carry a cell phone at the training here either.

 

Fucking around with these guns is a balancing act, like I said (and you refuse to understand). You make changes, you have to figure out how to get it running again. I'm here to help (as I have been, as I have been telling you exactly what I look at when I work on these), and if you want to send it back, I will work it over (again) and send it back.

 

From my perspective, you took a gun that I tested, and that Fred ran as a match gun for several matches, and broke it. No problem, I deal with customers like that all the time. Most of them, though, are gun guys so there is a much different mindset.

One thing that you haven't tried yet...take that magwell off and try to run it with regular rock and lock magazines. If the magazine is too high in the receiver the top shell could be retarding the bolt carrier both in and out of battery.

 

If that doesn't work, send the whole gun and a couple of magazines back and I will work on it. I'll be back from Bragg Thursday afternoon, leave for Hurlburt Sunday, and will be back in Texas again on the 10th. I should be there until about the 10th of June, when I leave for Bagram, so there is some time.

 

Alex

 

 

At this point I don’t know what we will be able to accomplish via the phone.

 

You're pissed at me and I'm REALLY pissed at you.

 

I'm almost positive that if we talk via the phone one of us will end up telling the other to go fuck themselves.

 

Which is disconcerting to me because we have know each other for about 10 years. Even though we are not "friends" I always thought we were "buds".

 

So why am I REALLY PISSED? What was the thing that is really important that I wanted to talk you about yesterday?

 

The choke isn’t silver soldered onto this gun, it's pressed on. How do I know? I was cleaning it and noticed it was moved forward 1/8". I could see a ring of unpainted barrel. I didn’t know if it was always like that (which would be really weird since I painted the entire gun) or if it had moved, so I smacked it with a rubber mallet and it it moved back against the machined shoulder.

 

IT'S A GOOD FUCKING THING I DISCOVERED THIS INSTEAD OF AN ATF AGENT.

 

Now I have to find a way to press it off and then I have to find a way to silver solder it back on with the equipment I have, or I will have to pay someone locally to weld it.

 

So now I sit hear and have to ask myself "how could they have fired over a thousand rounds through this gun and not notice this?" It only took about 300 for it to move an 1/8" for me.

 

I have always thought you to be a trustworthy person but right now the part of my brain that I can't control have is making me doubt that. I don't want to have doubts, but a lot just doesn't add up.

 

I asked you several questions about the gun and you don’t answer them.

 

I asked what I did to break it and you just say I broke it. I'm still perplexed as to what I could have done to make a gun that ran perfectly into a gun that can't get through a mag. You have to know that I'm a pretty smart guy yet you treat me like an idiot with your vague replies.

 

I did nothing to the internals. With the exception of brazing over the original gas ports, everything I did was external and cosmetic. I don’t see how brazing over the old gas ports would cause the gun to be under gassed, which seems to be the primary issue.

 

The new idea about the mag is questionable because you said you had zero issues with the mag I sent. Well I have 4 modified mags and all of them have every type of issue imaginable.

 

I was looking at the gun and I noticed the hammer is really high. It takes a lot of pressure to get the bolt to ride over the hammer to set it. I still wonder about the single gas port. The rails the bolt rides on seem to be rough. All of these could be issues but until we talk in depth I will not know.

 

If you say you will be able to talk via the phone and be receptive to my concerns and tolerant of my attitude, I will be glad to try discussing this via the phone.

 

I won’t be home until late tomorrow night, I go to church at 10am, and then I'm going to a friends house to finish their kitchen and take some pictures of it.

 

I will be around from 12pm to about 4pm and then I'll be home after 9pm.

 

Let me know when and if you want to call.

 

 

Vague? Yeah, I'm telling you things I've learned in the last eight years of building and shooting hundreds of these damn things and you don't understand what I'm saying.

 

Send the fucking gun back.

 

I was holding the choke straight when Fred was heating the silver solder...I have no idea what you have done to it, and I've had enough of your ranting and incompetent attempts at garage gunsmithing. You have three goddamn ports...one large and two small, one centered and two angled at the edge of the gas block. We drilled all three the same size, then took the gun apart and redrilled the center until until the fucking gun cycled. We do the same fucking thing every fucking time because it fucking works.

 

Put all four magazines in the fucking box. I'll get the gun running AGAIN and sent it back. I normally talk people through working these guns up, but you are a Special Case. Everyone gets those from time to time.

 

BTW, there are pictures on on my godsdamned website of Fred shooting THAT GUN at the 2008 USPSA 3-Gun nationals. Good enough to take to the Big Show, after all. At least, it was when we had it.

 

Alex

 

 

This PM is the last straw.

 

I am sick of you blaming me for everything, now I somehow magically got the choke to come loose. Give me a fucking break.

 

The more I read your PMs the more I wonder how I could have ever thought you were a stand up guy.

 

Consider this the last contact we will have in private.

 

I will use the forum resources to fix the issues I have with this gun.

 

And for the record, you did not once ever in any PM or phone conversation tell me this was a used gun. You tlod me it was ready built gun that was part of a batch that you take to 3 gun matches to sell.

 

 

It would seem that most people think I should send the gun back to you to be fixed.

 

If things had gone differently I would be more inclined to do so but would you want to deal with a person that has acted the way you have?

 

I don’t know of any other service provider that can abuse customers the way you did and get away with it. Would you have done the same thing to someone at the RPF? Or to a customer at a match?

 

I'm guessing that this all started when I made the "vodka special" comment.

 

I didn’t think that you or Fred intentionally got sloppy. I just thought my gun might have had some issues you guys didn’t catch. When I made that comment, I was under the impression that I got the last gun from a batch of guns that you guys built to sell at matches. I didn’t know that you sent me a used gun that had thousands of rounds shot through it.

 

 

After I made the "VS" comment you got pissed and then everything was my fault and I was a fucking retard.

 

You say you tested the gun. If you say that you fired a full 12 round mag without any issues I will believe you. But you also have to extend that same courtesy to me when I tell you things, such as the choke coming loose.

 

The first thing you said was "I have no idea what you have done to it"

 

The few seconds it took me to braze the old gas ports shut and the minute or so that I spent silver soldering the front sight on could not have had any effect on the choke. I laid a wet rag on the front barrel and the back part of the gas tube to protect the gun from solder splatter and they didn’t even get warm.

 

If you want me to send the gun back to you I will.

 

But I would like some assurance that you're going to be able to work on it subjectively and not just looking for ways to blame me for the problems.

 

I am still completly open to discussing this via the phone, I think we could mend a lot of fences if we actually talked about this.

 

You have my number

 

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2010 by Boba Debt

[Boba Debt 350]

Forgive me if I'm missing the point, but why go through all of that trouble just to have an 18.5" barreled S12? Why not just cut the barrel back to the length needed to be legal with a welded on choke and forget about the comp and the addt'l porting beyond the comp?

 

 

My gun was a 22" S-12 that was going to be made into a Bull Pup. My original request was to have the total length of the barrel be 18.5" which included a permanently attached brake that was about 3" long.

 

I ended up getting a race gun that was preconfigured by Alex for a really good price. Now if I can just get it to work I will have something to brag about.

 

 

 

Now that paragraph there should tell anyone who reads it that the thing isn't brand new. You read what you wanted to hear into it.

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point. The way that sentence reads made it sound like I was getting the last gun from a "pre-configured" batch that they sold at matches and gun shows.

 

 

 

 

 

As for trouble shooting, please refer to my contribution to your feedback thread of the many ways the gas block could have been enlarged / deformed by your methods. You seem to have it saved

 

My puck is tight but moves smoothly.

 

If I had deformed the gas block I'm sure it would cause a consistent type of failure.

 

 

 

Pin the choke, heat & remove then install & pin, or get an SBS stamp to stay legal.

 

I think the choke is too thin to pin.

 

I'm going to see if my set up is hot enough to re-liquefy the silver solder. If it is I should be able to get some more solder to wick into the joint.

 

 

I'm going to try the original gas plug to see if that works better.

 

I will try to post pictures of the parts and an detailed description of the types of failures I have tomorrow

[Paulyski 2,227]

Just an idea, but Mike at Lone-star arms has found weird things happen with some quad rails.

He had a gun that just wouldn't run consistently with one.

Being as it looks like yours is blocked on by the sight though, it may be hard to try it with the rail off just for testing.

[Boba Debt 350]

Just an idea, but Mike at Lone-star arms has found weird things happen with some quad rails.

He had a gun that just wouldn't run consistently with one.

Being as it looks like yours is blocked on by the sight though, it may be hard to try it with the rail off just for testing.

 

 

I plan on shooting it with out the quad rail tomorrow (it comes off with 6 screws)

 

Here are some images of the guns internals

 

 

 

 

In these pictures you can see how high the hammer sits, the bolt depresses the hammer about 1/4" past the point that it catches on the trigger hook

 

You can also see that the top looks like it's getting flared out.

 

 

 

 

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Boba,

It sounds like your original idea was better than what you ended up with. The weapon does look quite menacing with that mid comp, but what good is it if it doesn't work? I wish I had the answer to what needs to be done. I can only say that I'm pulling for you and I hope you get it figured out.

 

I have the funny feeling you will have to end up losing the barrel beyond the comp and SBS like the other poster said. I know that wasn't your original intention, but you could certainly brag about that if you got it running well

 

Mike at Lonestar could put the 'Lonestar Magic' on that thing.... I have spoken to him at length and he most definitely has immense talent for making these weapons run.

[Boba Debt 350]

I have contacted someone that works on these a lot and they agreed to evaluate the gun and fix it for me.

 

So this thread is sort of a mute point for now.

[going12220 125]

[skiboatsp 111]

My question would be how far back is the gas system moved?

 

It looks to be only an inch or so?

 

With that much porting and lose of dwell time I not suprised it has problems.

 

Most guns I've seen with similar porting has the gas system moved 3 3/4"

Edited March 31, 2010 by saigatechusa

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I can see several things I would do right away that would make it run much better. Since you are local to me, it would be very easy to get together and do said work...BUT...I'm not real sure I would want to touch something belonging to a person who gets pissed when everything doesn't go his way, and starts posting threads all over the place like the ones you did here. I think it is very unfair to Mr Wakal the way you have handled this. If your aim was to discredit him or somehow make him look bad, I can tell you it might have worked if I didn't know him better.

Above all, I think it is completely uncalled for, for ANYONE to resort to posting PMs or emails in public, without their author's explicit permission. That's just plain f*#king wrong...

 

I know several other members here who place themselves so high on a pedestal, they think they are above keeping things private, and use other people's words, usually things that were said in the heat of the moment, as a way to bolster their arguments, while airing dirty laundry...when they know down deep inside they are in the wrong....

To me, doing something like that is nothing better than backstabbing betrayal, and the worst abuse of trust. It's no one else's business here what two people say to each other in PRIVATE. Don't we get enough drama around here without that kind of stuff? I mean damn dude...a simple thread about "how can I fix my gun?" would have been just great. That's what I like to see personally. You really could have left the Alex and the drama, completely out of this. You beef with him should remain between you and him.

 

There's a REASON that PMs are called PRIVATE MESSAGES. When anything otherwise becomes accepted as normal, then that sucks. If I was a mod I would delete shit like that just as soon as it was posted, no matter WHO posted it....spoiler or not. Thank you for at least betraying his trust in a clickable link....and no I didn't even open them because they are none of my business.

 

[Boba Debt 350]

......Seems like you should give the builder the 1st shot at the fix.

 

He has not responding to my PM and even if he did I don’t think he would be happy or subjective about fixing this gun.

 

 

 

 

 

My question would be how far back is the gas system moved?

 

It looks to be only an inch or so?

 

The front of the gas block is 5.75" front the front edge of the receiver.

 

 

 

I think it is very unfair to Mr Wakal the way you have handled this.

 

If you read our last PM exchange you might have a different opinion about the way I handled this.

 

 

Above all, I think it is completely uncalled for, for ANYONE to resort to posting PMs or emails in public, without their author's explicit permission. That's just plain f*#king wrong...

 

Once money exchanges hands on any item, and especially a gun, a customer/vendor relationship is established. At that point noting should be considered "private". The only reason I used the PM system was because Alex was not replying to my emails.

 

Either way, no vendor should be concerned about his emails or PMs being made public by a customer. He should have nothing to be ashamed of if his actions and words are acceptable to other potential customers.

 

 

 

You beef with him should remain between you and him.

 

Situations like this should be aired and discussed so that people can understand all of the variables involved to make sound decisions about dealing with the vendor and or the customer in the future.

 

 

I can see several things I would do right away that would make it run much better. Since you are local to me, it would be very easy to get together and do said work...BUT...I'm not real sure I would want to touch something belonging to a person who gets pissed when everything doesn't go his way, and starts posting threads all over the place like the ones you did here.

 

 

When you say "everything not going my way" do you mean

 

I shouldn't be concerned that my gun can't make it through a mag with out a bunch of different issues

 

OR

 

That I shouldn't be pissed about getting a used gun with thousands of rounds through it when he made it seem like I was getting a new gun from a batch of reliable guns that they sold at matches.

 

OR

 

That I shouldn't be really pissed about the loose choke which basically make the gun a SBS.

 

I know you and I have become more amicable toward each other but personally I'm not sure I would want you to work on this gun either.

 

It's not that I don’t think you capable of fixing it, it is your "fly off the handle" attitude that doesn’t really sit right with me.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Boba Debt

[volkov 318]

 

When you say "everything not going my way" do you mean

 

I shouldn't be concerned that my gun can't make it through a mag with out a bunch of different issues

 

OR

 

That I shouldn't be pissed about getting a used gun with thousands of rounds through it when he made it seem like I was getting a new gun from a batch of reliable guns that they sold at matches.

 

OR

 

That I shouldn't be really pissed about the loose choke which basically make the gun a SBS.

 

 

 

I think he means the part where you did a bunch of mods to a working gun, broke it, and then made three threads attacking the guy who made it and posted his private messages everywhere for all to see. Just a hunch. And as has already been pointed out from your private messages, it was pretty darn obvious it wasn't a new gun. I guess he figured you were smart enough he didn't have to beat you over the head with it. Woops.

 

You outa quit bitching and get to apologizing, you messed up pretty bad, but as long as you don't piss everyone off theres a lot of people who can help you.

Edited March 31, 2010 by volkov

[Boba Debt 350]

I think he means the part where you did a bunch of mods to a working gun, broke it, and then made three threads attacking the guy who made it and posted his private messages everywhere for all to see. Just a hunch. And as has already been pointed out from your private messages, it was pretty darn obvious it wasn't a new gun. I guess he figured you were smart enough he didn't have to beat you over the head with it. Woops.

 

You outa quit bitching and get to apologizing, you messed up pretty bad, but as long as you don't piss everyone off theres a lot of people who can help you.

 

 

First of all I think its wrong to assume the gun worked and that what I did broke it. I have spoken to 2 different people and they mentioned issues that should be addressed and even Cobra said he could see things that would make it run better from the few pictures I posted. I really wish I had test fired it first and the lesson that I have learned is that I will always test fire any gun I have worked on in the future.

 

Secondly, I made 2 threads, one about the ethics and one about fixing it. Then I asked to have them deleted so I could post a single less dramatic post.

 

 

And finally, how could I possible think the gun was used based on this sentence from one of Alex's emails:

 

One of the experiments was a "pre-configured" batch of our favorite setup, short gas system comp'ed rail guns, to sell at matches and gun shows. We have one left, that looks a lot like this one

 

I was supposed to think that they had a batch of guns that had thousands of rounds shot through them that they sold at matches????

[going12220 125]

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I think that as usual, (I can't help it sometimes)...I said too much and it detracted from my most important point.

 

I don't know where you get off thinking that just because you paid the man some money, that somehow buys you the right to go around posting his private words to you all over the internet...in multiple threads no doubt... It's WRONG to share what someone tells you in confidence, on a public website full of people who know them...and just as importantly, some who don't... no matter what it's about. Maybe I was just brought up different. I think it's in extremely bad taste to do so and anyone who does that is not cool.

 

Ya know, it's a felony to go in someone else's mailbox, or tamper with it, or their mail in any way. That to me is about the same as electronic mail, and the same rules should apply.

 

[skiboatsp 111]

.

Edited March 31, 2010 by saigatechusa

[going12220 125]

you might hold out an olive branch and go back and edit or remove some or all of your postings and if needed have someone else approach the builder on your behalf.

seeing how they get these things to run with 8 inch barrels yours should be able to run, but somethings not quit there.

getting pissed happens, but it doesn't fix guns.

even little things like the dust cover on the recoil rod could be hitting where you had the rear sight welded.

as I said earlier if you have question about springs (Brownell's has every 1911 recoil spring I know of) or pucks get a new one (put a factory one in) or swap them out with a buddy for a test.

[Paulyski 2,227]

I feel that sometimes Personal Messages can be quite helpful.

For instance the PM posted actually explains the misunderstanding on the gun in question.

If I see the word prototype or experiment, I automatically figure it's been fired & experimented with.

Unfortunately, Bobba didn't make that connection.

 

When stuff gets out of hand, like if someone is being underhanded & trying to pull crap over on people, or being disingenuous, their previous words are proof of their deception & true character.

 

If someone is ashamed of something they send, they shouldn't try to hide behind the scenes & be sneaky.

They simply should never try to post underhanded or inconsistent stuff in the first place.

 

We all know Bobba, & how hard he is to please.

I think the PM in question is rather validating to Wakal.

 

Just a random thought.

[Zambidis 90]

I'm just astonished by all the childish and uncivil behavior that has been been going on this forum lately. I swear some of the people here are more sensitive that a tween girl.

 

Ya know, it's a felony to go in someone else's mailbox, or tamper with it, or their mail in any way. That to me is about the same as electronic mail, and the same rules should apply.

 

If you think the same rules should apply you just totally undermined your own point. You realize that it is not a felony to open a letter from a friend or a business addressed to you and show it to who ever you like right. That would be the apt analogy here.

[Boba Debt 350]

The person that agreed to fix my gun is having second thoughts

 

So now I guess I will have to do the work myself.

 

I really think the hammer might be an issue.

 

Should I do anything to it to decrease the amount it gets depressed which is about 1/4"

 

 

Should I re-shape the hammer:

 

 

Should I replace the spring with this one from JT Engineering:

 

[Wade Pruetz 103]

From those pictures it doesn't look like the hammer, the rails, or the bottom of the bolt carrier has been worked on at all. My new side folder with out a single round through it has been completely worked over in those departments. I would send it to Mike at Lone Star, but I am not sure he would want to get involved at this point.