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Saiga Shotgun Gunfighting Video Due Out In June

FRC64

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FRC64

FRC64 2

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The long awaited video title, Saiga Shotgun Gunfighting, by Gabe Suarez at Suarez International will be available June 2010.

I'm sure it'll be a great instructional video for the Saiga-12 end user , from those who would use them in home defense to those who would use them professionally in law enforcement, military or private security.

Here is the promo video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-u9cYAQOhw

 

I have no ties to Gabe or Suarez International. I thought those on this forum would be interested.

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Heath_h49008

Heath_h49008 442

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Looks cool.

 

Now, let me be clear that I've never been instructed in the technique, so I don't know how effective "combat rolls" actually are, but I gotta say, they always remind me a bit of this...

 

 

 

:D

 

You mean they remind you of someone "playing ninja" in the most retarded/unrealistic way possible? Yeah, I got the same impression... But, he's not as silly as he looks. There are situations you might change stance in ONE of those manners. Putting them all together like a Kata simply looks moronic. (The low stance would be excellent for someone who really needs to slip and shoot his foot off.)

 

His transition looks ugly as hell as well. It breaks 180, (so It would DQ you in most tactical competitions), the sling is sloppy,(It wouldn't be much good in a running transition with the barrel bouncing off the back of your knees), and bringing it all the way over your head would slow your transition down so much as to get you an new orifice from your target. Not to mention if you were wearing a vest or pack, it would be impossible to do, or prone to getting the weapon hung up in your gear.

 

I don't know the guy from Adam, but he looks low speed, high drag.

 

Maybe his tactics are more suited to pump-guns outfitted a certain way for duty use. But the Saiga 12 would be more effectively employed like a carbine. It IS a carbine, a low capacity one, rebuilt for larger ammo, and with limited range.

 

 

Far be it from me to pop anyone's balloons, but that vid is just silly. IMHO

 

Heath

Edited by Heath_h49008
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Juggernaut

Juggernaut 11,054

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Well... If you know anything about Gabe... when he was a Cop, his real world confrontations were with a shotty....

he came out on top... the perp did not....

 

I can see it now... the perp writhing in a bloody mess... his dieing words..

"your muzzle raised up a hair on your 3 yard follow up shot!"

 

Gabe teaches the shotty as a close range weapon... not a carbine....

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FRC64

FRC64 2

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I personally know several PMCs and Private Security Contractors who have trained with Gabe and his staff and along with my experiences know that Gabe is one of the most knowledgeable and respected combat shooting instructors out there.

 

Gotta go now, seems I've seriously bitten my tongue and may need stitches...Juggernaut, do I get a cookie?

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Caspian

Caspian 32

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You mean they remind you of someone "playing ninja" in the most retarded/unrealistic way possible? Yeah, I got the same impression... But, he's not as silly as he looks. There are situations you might change stance in ONE of those manners. Putting them all together like a Kata simply looks moronic. (The low stance would be excellent for someone who really needs to slip and shoot his foot off.)

 

I was thinking the EXACT same thing. Good way to lose toes, and it reminds me of a 7 year old going through t Tae-Kwan-do routine.

 

Not to say thee aren't arm chair commandos who will get into it and practice the kata in thier basement.

 

Caspian

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Juggernaut

Juggernaut 11,054

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Posted

 

 

Gotta go now, seems I've seriously bitten my tongue and may need stitches...Juggernaut, do I get a cookie?

 

Everyone who logs on to this forum gets a cookie..!!! ;)

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BpS12

BpS12 512

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The low profile position is taught by the Russian Spetnaz IIRC and training is how you keep from shooting yourself in the foot. I've seen some of Gabe's other work and they are worthwhile. As for Kata, it trains one in the techniques and is not meant to be used as a tachnique in itself, despite what you see in movies. Though I'm not found of the transition either.

 

Should be a worthy video, pick up what you can use, shelve the rest.

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Heath_h49008

Heath_h49008 442

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I guessed this guys background "Maybe his tactics are more suited to pump-guns outfitted a certain way for duty use." the vid makes more sense.

 

His vast kill scorecard with his shotgun would have to be made available to me before I could comment. Although there are 12 year olds in Africa who have kills and a perfect Hadji "Spray and Pray" method. Their combat experience doesn't mean I want to emulate them either.

 

Here in Michigan we had to bury a 7year old girl who apparently fell victim to a person produced by the police/SWAT/Tactical training industry who wanted to look good for an A&E camera... and started shooting up a living room of unarmed people from a porch. (The target was in a different apartment.)Cameras make people do silly things.

 

But I digress...

 

This was his promo video... The best he could put out there, to entice customers. He is saying "Look what I can do! I'll teach you to do it as well!"

 

I'm simply pointing out his methods and theories have issues as presented.

 

If any of you have the opportunity, try to take a class with Steve Fisher... (or all of them if you can afford the ammo)...

 

 

His classes are very fast paced, no-nonsense, and "Big Boy Rules Apply". They have a very high round count, and your gear will be tested as much as any other part of you. He's also an all-weather trainer. We did one class in January in Michigan well below freezing. I can't say enough about his utter lack of BS.

 

This doesn't have to be a flame post, I don't intend it to be anyway. There are things about the S12 that make it a game changer compared to an 870. This guy seems to be trying to play ping pong with a bowling ball.

 

Cheers guys

Edited by Juggernaut
Removed Non Con Link ;) Read forum rules..
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Juggernaut

Juggernaut 11,054

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Heath, you ever take a Suarez Class????

You wanna a talk Big boy rules.... I suggest you do so prior to passing judgment....

There are those who have attended SI classes, and those who criticize them....

 

You are also implying the Suarez Intl. had something to do with the training of the shooter in that tragic incident here involving the young girl...

at least... that is the picture you are trying to paint... nothing could be further form the truth...

 

That's comin' form a Michigan boy who has spent his fair share of time out in the cold....

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Juggernaut

Juggernaut 11,054

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Ya know, I'm just glad that our little gun here has grown up.... and have generated enough interest to be where it's at.....

and that people are making specific videos for the platform..... GOOD FOR ALL OF US!!!

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garandman

garandman 11

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Very interested.

 

As was said... His foot is actually out front of his muzzle.

 

I happen to like my foot. I intend to always keep it behind my muzzle.

 

That said, Gabe Suarez is world reknowned as a serious trainer. I'll check it out.

 

Unfortunately, trailers are intended to market to the masses (i.e. wannabe's and teeny boppers) , and tend to glamorize a bit. Real training is alot less glamourous, and doesn't usually make it into trailers.

 

Don't judge the movie by the trailer. Remember all the good trailers that ended up being lousy movies?

Edited by garandman
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Heath_h49008

Heath_h49008 442

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Well put. I'll give it a chance and look for some of his other stuff.

 

Do we have a Michigan contingent here? I'm in Kalamazoo and shoot KRGC and Centerline in BC (for the most part). I haven't seen very many converted Saiga 12s 'round these parts.

 

Any of my fellow Michiganders who want, can join me at an ACTS match and try out Carbine/Pistol run and gun. It's a good group of guys, and pretty darn fun as well. Just hit me with a PM and we'll figure out if it's possible.

 

The weapon has certainly "Grown Up". This platform converted to AR grips, and function completely changes the use of the shotgun in a practical sense. Just look at the issues 3-gun matches had when it hit. I would liken it to bringing an M1 Garand to combat when everyone else is issued 1903 Springfields or K98s. It just isn't the same game.

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Heath_h49008

Heath_h49008 442

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If you are out at Centerline... then you should know SI Instructor Bill Lindsay.....

 

His face looks familiar, but the name doesn't ring a bell. I only hit Centerline for ACTS and Classes with Steve. I'm from Kalamazoo and KRGC is a whole lot closer.

 

Hmmm... I do need to learn shot patterning techniques and some of the other Shotgun specific skills. I'm planning on hitting the June match if everything goes right, and should have my S12 done by the time of the CRC. Does he run private instruction out there?

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Juggernaut

Juggernaut 11,054

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Bill teaches all kinds of stuff... (CPL ect) Best bet.. contact centerline...

There are other local SI Instructors.. just that Bill is "Part Of" Centerline....

They have a shotgun class in Oct.. I plan on attending...

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Heath_h49008

Heath_h49008 442

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Bill teaches all kinds of stuff... (CPL ect) Best bet.. contact centerline...

There are other local SI Instructors.. just that Bill is "Part Of" Centerline....

They have a shotgun class in Oct.. I plan on attending...

 

I'll ask the folks out there at the June ACTS. I can't wait to get back on the range.

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corbin

corbin 621

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All I know is that Dragonov shirt he is waring is BadAss!!!

 

 

Wherever could I find a shirt like that?! :rolleyes:

 

 

Another Michigan boy here too. :super: As far as the "tactical rolls" Gabe does (more correctly called Spetsnaz prone), I don't know if they'd be too useful for matches, since it's meant more to avoid incoming bullets than to speed up your shot time. It also changes your profile DURING THE FIGHT, making the bad guy have to re-adjust. Kinda like hitting the target while moving. No sense in standing still and trading a shot for a shot, if you can help it.

 

That's not to say you want to do that if you don't need to. That would remind me of the show off guy in this fight (who appeared to be in better shape) getting laid out with one punch while showing off:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmuUKKkluSc

 

I still love watching that from time to time. :lolol:

 

However...speaking as a former Soldier that's been in his share of real world "lead exchanges", I say anything that makes you a smaller & moving target while allowing you to still get rounds on the BG is a good thing. Being able to transition from position to position smoothly is preferable. Admittedly, I think I've only used something similar to the Spetsnaz Prone once in actual combat. No shots were fired by me though. But it got me on target quick and I wasn't hit. The guy in front of me got nicked though. Had I stood there and just turned around, I would have likely been hit. But that's Monday morning quarterbacking, so who knows.

 

The over the head shotgun transition to pistol works great for me. It's not the only thing out there though. Not by any means. You will need a longer sling to do it. No, it's not as range friendly as a 3 point sling transition, or even a single point one. However, neither is being able to fire 360 degrees, but if you're in an actual life or death situation, you better to be able to engage any target at any position. If that means engaging while you're seated, knocked down or running, so be it. Again, not as range friendly. Just applicable to the real World.

 

 

Anyway, that's just the view from this particular soapbox. :rolleyes: Your view may vary.

 

 

 

 

Corbin

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Heath_h49008

Heath_h49008 442

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We eat OODA Loops for breakfast 'roun here. That's what keeps us "Tacticool"

 

(That is such a bad joke...) :smoke:

 

Seriously, if anyone wants to check out ACTS, bring a carbine, sidearm, holster and mags. 200rds of ammo for each, and what you don't have, I might be able to help out with as long as you pay your fees and ammo.

 

I have a G3 that runs 7.62 NATO, and a PLR16 for .223. Various .45acp sidearms and holsters/pouches to get you through.

 

http://actshooters.com/

 

The detail are all there.

Edited by Heath_h49008
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Stansplace

Stansplace 414

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Gotta go now, seems I've seriously bitten my tongue and may need stitches...Juggernaut, do I get a cookie?

 

Everyone who logs on to this forum gets a cookie..!!! ;)

 

Where's my damn cookie? And what's up with all the new trolls lately?

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BpS12

BpS12 512

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Sytema, Krav Maga and American Goju Ryu(the Mil/CIA version) are all very similar. When I heard of the first two I looked at every book/website I could find. Then I realized that it was mostly the same techniques, etc. that I learned from a former CIA op, 30yrs ago. Variation of course, but much the same.

 

Hmm, I guess packageing is everything, lol.

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