LRBHO Tutorial?

[VaiFanatic90 360]

well dadgum it! was really looking forward to learning something new.

 

Haha, you and I both.

[MikeD 541]

A patent more protects the method rather than the exact design. Just because something isn't an exact copy doesn't mean you aren't infringing on a patent. I had heard before that as long as you didn't sell what you copied that you wasn't infringing on a patent. I have found out that that is 100% false. If Tom gets the protection any copy will be infringement. It doesn't matter if the copy was made before the patent was issued or not. It looks like Tom has this one wrapped up. Infringment can be quite nasty...

 

^ Kind of what I have been thinking.

 

I have been reading that if I show people how to manufacture this product, that every time someone makes one, it is an infringement by me since the designs are so similar.

 

Oh well, sorry guys.

Depends on the patent you file for,

 

 

* Utility Patent- Issued for the invention of a new and

useful process, machine, manufacture, or composition of

matter, or a new and useful improvement thereof, it

generally permits its owner to exclude others from

making, using, or selling the invention for a period of

up to twenty years from the date of patent application

filing ++, subject to the payment of maintenance fees.

Approximately 90% of the patent documents issued by the

PTO in recent years have been utility patents, also

referred to as "patents for invention."

 

* Design Patent- Issued for a new, original, and

ornamental design for an article of manufacture, it

permits its owner to exclude others from making, using,

or selling the design for a period of fourteen years

from the date of patent grant. Design patents are not

subject to the payment of maintenance fees.

 

* Plant Patent- Issued for a new and distinct, invented

or discovered asexually reproduced plant including

cultivated sports, mutants, hybrids, and newly found

seedlings, other than a tuber propagated plant or a

plant found in an uncultivated state, it permits its

owner to exclude others from making, using, or selling

the plant for a period of up to twenty years from the

date of patent application filing ++. Plant patents

are not subject to the payment of maintenance fees.

 

 

I myself have pulled several Patent Pending and Trademarks so I know the process fairly well, it's not rocket science but can be a royal pain in the ass!Patent Pending only protect you for 12 mos. after that you better have your shit filled in full, or it's gone forever! If someone has a real claim to something there will be no problem showing proof of that claim, kinda like when I posted a pic of my Registered Trademark for Chaos.

And if someone has pics of something they've made at home they can post all the pics they want of it! One offs are not going to infringe on anything or anyone. This guy has the right to post his work on this forum the same as anyone else, past, current, or future. I'm not endorsing copying someone else's work then showing it, but to the best of my understanding, no one has even seen Tom's design, so that would be a hell of a feat, to copy something no one has seen. Now, if Tom has released pics and this is a copy, well that would be a horse of a different color. But this guy claims his requires no alteration to weapon, so I don't see how it would be the same. So I would say he is free to post if he so decides to.

Cameron, The firm of patent attorneys I've been working with say other wise on some of this. For instance a patent app can be hidden for 18 months and no one will ever find it. That is why no one is finding our double stack if they are looking, it a form of protection... And the government just might decide a patent needs to remain hidden from public access depending on the technology involved and sensitivity of such.

 

And it really doesn't matter is someone has seen something or not, infringement is infringement. Negligence is no excuse.

 

A patent is protected by claims. The claims are the actual patent. If you can eliminate a claim you can get around a patent. If you have the same claims or add a claim it is infringement.

 

I'm not saying simply posting pics of his design is infringement. I do not know the answer on that one. What I am say is ANYONE that makes, sells, or uses one will be infringing with chance of an open shut case with no chance of defense, if Tom is awarded the patent... Doesn't matter if they made it during the patent process or not.

 

Something interesting on the Patent Pending... Yes, if you don't follow through with a true patent with in a year it is gone forever. And you no longer can mark or advertise your product as patent pending. And if you do, ANYBODY can sue you for doing so. They don't have to have a reason other than you are doing it. The federal government gets a cut of the settlement, imagine that... I know this to be fact. Does this make you think of anybody in particular? As far as I can tell Alliance was never awarded a patent for their drum or for their gas system. They have been selling them for well over a year and as far as I know both are still advertised and marked as patent pending... Lawsuit anyone??? It would be an open shut case for you... Put those scum bags out of business...

 

I am not claiming to know anything about patents because I don't. Simply to much to know and that is why there are whole firms of patent lawyers in business and that is why I hired one of these firms for my work. To many technicalities. Many think they know but when it comes down to it unless they went to school for it and then followed up with years and years of everyday hands on experience doing the trade I am willing to bet 999 out of 1000 know next to nothing. People that right their own patent papers get screwed out of them more often than not a some super simple to avoid technicality. Yes, most self writers don't have problems but that is probably only because they have never had to take them to court. Yes, someone might figure out how to turn on a mill and cut a hole in a piece of metal, does that make them a competent machinist or toolmaker? Hell no, that take years of personal experience. Maybe their hole will work. Maybe their first 5 holes will work... But more then likely, eventually someone experienced is going to show them how they screwed the what seemed to be perfect hole up...

Its wide doorway, when people start ranting about patents and trademarks until they have that little paper in their hands and doesn't matter, the guy isn't saying hes manufacturing them. Anyone can sue anyone in this country, for anything. If I have an idea thats pops into my head and I feel like putting out there, I will! This guy showing something his made at home, a one off doesn't warrant all this discloser. In the end it will be up to this guy if he will post it and up to Tom if he feels it violates his rights, as you and I have no dog in this fight!

I agree. And you are correct that I don't have a dog in the fight and ment you no harm or disrespect at all or to PLastik either. I was just putting it out there, like everyone else... In my opinion all most that can do it will need to know to make one has already been posted anyways... Pretty simple really. So simple I'm surprised it has taken this long to see this design.

[gregomega 929]

Well isnt that the point. Figuring out a method of using a LRBHO without modifying your mags or receiver? If it works, that would be the ideal design IMO. And I know nothing as far as patents go but can you not improve on a design with out steping on toes or what not? Aaaaah crapshoot.

[cvhanh20 1,052]

A patent more protects the method rather than the exact design. Just because something isn't an exact copy doesn't mean you aren't infringing on a patent. I had heard before that as long as you didn't sell what you copied that you wasn't infringing on a patent. I have found out that that is 100% false. If Tom gets the protection any copy will be infringement. It doesn't matter if the copy was made before the patent was issued or not. It looks like Tom has this one wrapped up. Infringment can be quite nasty...

 

^ Kind of what I have been thinking.

 

I have been reading that if I show people how to manufacture this product, that every time someone makes one, it is an infringement by me since the designs are so similar.

 

Oh well, sorry guys.

Depends on the patent you file for,

 

 

* Utility Patent- Issued for the invention of a new and

useful process, machine, manufacture, or composition of

matter, or a new and useful improvement thereof, it

generally permits its owner to exclude others from

making, using, or selling the invention for a period of

up to twenty years from the date of patent application

filing ++, subject to the payment of maintenance fees.

Approximately 90% of the patent documents issued by the

PTO in recent years have been utility patents, also

referred to as "patents for invention."

 

* Design Patent- Issued for a new, original, and

ornamental design for an article of manufacture, it

permits its owner to exclude others from making, using,

or selling the design for a period of fourteen years

from the date of patent grant. Design patents are not

subject to the payment of maintenance fees.

 

* Plant Patent- Issued for a new and distinct, invented

or discovered asexually reproduced plant including

cultivated sports, mutants, hybrids, and newly found

seedlings, other than a tuber propagated plant or a

plant found in an uncultivated state, it permits its

owner to exclude others from making, using, or selling

the plant for a period of up to twenty years from the

date of patent application filing ++. Plant patents

are not subject to the payment of maintenance fees.

 

 

I myself have pulled several Patent Pending and Trademarks so I know the process fairly well, it's not rocket science but can be a royal pain in the ass!Patent Pending only protect you for 12 mos. after that you better have your shit filled in full, or it's gone forever! If someone has a real claim to something there will be no problem showing proof of that claim, kinda like when I posted a pic of my Registered Trademark for Chaos.

And if someone has pics of something they've made at home they can post all the pics they want of it! One offs are not going to infringe on anything or anyone. This guy has the right to post his work on this forum the same as anyone else, past, current, or future. I'm not endorsing copying someone else's work then showing it, but to the best of my understanding, no one has even seen Tom's design, so that would be a hell of a feat, to copy something no one has seen. Now, if Tom has released pics and this is a copy, well that would be a horse of a different color. But this guy claims his requires no alteration to weapon, so I don't see how it would be the same. So I would say he is free to post if he so decides to.

Cameron, The firm of patent attorneys I've been working with say other wise on some of this. For instance a patent app can be hidden for 18 months and no one will ever find it. That is why no one is finding our double stack if they are looking, it a form of protection... And the government just might decide a patent needs to remain hidden from public access depending on the technology involved and sensitivity of such.

 

And it really doesn't matter is someone has seen something or not, infringement is infringement. Negligence is no excuse.

 

A patent is protected by claims. The claims are the actual patent. If you can eliminate a claim you can get around a patent. If you have the same claims or add a claim it is infringement.

 

I'm not saying simply posting pics of his design is infringement. I do not know the answer on that one. What I am say is ANYONE that makes, sells, or uses one will be infringing with chance of an open shut case with no chance of defense, if Tom is awarded the patent... Doesn't matter if they made it during the patent process or not.

 

Something interesting on the Patent Pending... Yes, if you don't follow through with a true patent with in a year it is gone forever. And you no longer can mark or advertise your product as patent pending. And if you do, ANYBODY can sue you for doing so. They don't have to have a reason other than you are doing it. The federal government gets a cut of the settlement, imagine that... I know this to be fact. Does this make you think of anybody in particular? As far as I can tell Alliance was never awarded a patent for their drum or for their gas system. They have been selling them for well over a year and as far as I know both are still advertised and marked as patent pending... Lawsuit anyone??? It would be an open shut case for you... Put those scum bags out of business...

 

I am not claiming to know anything about patents because I don't. Simply to much to know and that is why there are whole firms of patent lawyers in business and that is why I hired one of these firms for my work. To many technicalities. Many think they know but when it comes down to it unless they went to school for it and then followed up with years and years of everyday hands on experience doing the trade I am willing to bet 999 out of 1000 know next to nothing. People that right their own patent papers get screwed out of them more often than not a some super simple to avoid technicality. Yes, most self writers don't have problems but that is probably only because they have never had to take them to court. Yes, someone might figure out how to turn on a mill and cut a hole in a piece of metal, does that make them a competent machinist or toolmaker? Hell no, that take years of personal experience. Maybe their hole will work. Maybe their first 5 holes will work... But more then likely, eventually someone experienced is going to show them how they screwed the what seemed to be perfect hole up...

Its wide doorway, when people start ranting about patents and trademarks until they have that little paper in their hands and doesn't matter, the guy isn't saying hes manufacturing them. Anyone can sue anyone in this country, for anything. If I have an idea thats pops into my head and I feel like putting out there, I will! This guy showing something his made at home, a one off doesn't warrant all this discloser. In the end it will be up to this guy if he will post it and up to Tom if he feels it violates his rights, as you and I have no dog in this fight!

I agree. And you are correct that I don't have a dog in the fight and ment you no harm or disrespect at all or to PLastik either. I was just putting it out there, like everyone else... In my opinion all most that can do it will need to know to make one has already been posted anyways... Pretty simple really. So simple I'm surprised it has taken this long to see this design.

Its all good Mike. I think it's great Tom is bringing this project forward. Hell we both discussed this project well over a year back, I knew it was only a matter of time before he pulled it off. Tom's a knowledgeable kind of guy, I even call Tom as he is in my Dealer Program and congratulated him personally, I just didn't want this guy thinking he would go to jail or something for sharing hes ideas in an open forum.

[theplastik 67]

I'm really busy with school right now, so I will post a pic later tonight of what I made.

I'll include dimensions.

 

Maybe no tutorial, though. I haven't decided yet.

 

Keep in mind. My LRBHO has not been tested on a range.

 

I hate to see all this fuss over something that doesn't quite "work" per se.

Or I haven't proven to myself it works rather.

 

I'm not trying to take away from anyone's business.

Everyone's got to make a living.

 

I am very fortunate to have what I do and I hope to some day be in the same shoes of some of these business members some day.

 

I just wanted to provide some info.

I wish I could have come across a tutorial for a LRBHO when I joined this forum.

 

It's not easy running a business.

I can't always contribute as a consumer, being a student.

I know there are a handful of others in the same boat, so I wanted to provide an easier method to continue enjoying our hobbies as best we can.

 

If you want a quality product that works, talk to CGW.

If you want to see some product that hasn't been proven, then stay tuned until later.

[theplastik 67]

This is NOT the finished product.

This is a progression of how I came up with what I have.

 

From the top:

Sketch

Original BHO

First Attempt (The engagement "hook" was too far back.)

Second Attempt (The Magazine/Round leveler was too short for my taste.)

 

[theplastik 67]

Finished on the left.

 

[theplastik 67]

[tonyhunt 15]

If this works as I suspect, then when inserting a new mag the bolt should automatically close, right?

[theplastik 67]

 

 

 

 

[theplastik 67]

If this works as I suspect, then when inserting a new mag the bolt should automatically close, right?

 

It really depends on your clearances.

 

Originally, the "hook" that engages the bolt lock was a VERY sharp inward angle.

With that sharp angle, the bolt had to be pulled to the rear and the button pressed down to release the bolt.

 

I shaved that angle so it is basically Vertical. Now, when I insert a mag, the bolt won't close, but I can press the side button Down to release it.

 

With some polishing and maybe some more material removed, you could get it to close when a mag is inserted, but I didn't want that function.

 

I would rather press a button to release, much like the AR style.

 

I believe There is room for error when the mag is not completely seated and locked but the bolt is already going forward.

 

I hope I explained that well.

[theplastik 67]

I know it looks like junk, but so far it is working.

 

I'll let you guys know how it fairs in a range test.

[tonyhunt 15]

Ok, that makes sense.

I agree on pushing a button like on an AR.

Thx for the info

[beefcakeb99 572]

Oh Noes, You're going to put CGW out of business. Wait, they are still an 02SOT so they can make anything they want!

[L5K 162]

Jumping the gun here, but for a version in a rifle you will need to have it "forked" so that it engages the rounds on either side of the magazine. I think you might have a problem running out of clearance with the part of the bolt that engages the rounds.

[theplastik 67]

Jumping the gun here, but for a version in a rifle you will need to have it "forked" so that it engages the rounds on either side of the magazine. I think you might have a problem running out of clearance with the part of the bolt that engages the rounds.

 

I have looked at the 7.62 converted and it seems feasible.

There's much more room to work with since it's got the pins in the center of the receiver rather than a trunnion. Same with the 223.

 

It looks like I would have to do a positive mag/follower presence set-up rather than this negative round presence on the S12 LRBHO.

 

It's not impossible, that's for sure.

[madmax4x4 68]

cool man

[Heath_h49008 442]

You could always buy the old Warfield Armory patent... or just make a copy, the pictures and data are on the forum already.

 

But M D had the best version of that one, if the vid is any indicator.

[Bvamp 604]

Ill let Tom worry about the infringement thing taking place here....not my ship to sail...

 

BUT...

 

Although I think its funny how in the matter of a month a nearly identical design has come out, I am highly tickled pink (seriously Im chuckling about this part) that both creations, patented or no, have been done by some hard thinking in the matter of a day or two. So much for a 5 year project....

 

anyway, Ill leave you fine gentlemen to it...

[theplastik 67]

Ill let Tom worry about the infringement thing taking place here....not my ship to sail...

 

BUT...

 

Although I think its funny how in the matter of a month a nearly identical design has come out, I am highly tickled pink (seriously Im chuckling about this part) that both creations, patented or no, have been done by some hard thinking in the matter of a day or two. So much for a 5 year project....

 

anyway, Ill leave you fine gentlemen to it...

 

The biggest reason I never tried this earlier is I was worried the mag leveler would be too thin and weak and would bend under any stress. Then I came up with the idea of folding over the metal so the tab is a bit stronger.

 

I'm honestly really surprised that it is even remotely similar.

I figured there would be at least some sort of variation.

 

You act as if your project is spoiled and no one will continue to buy your product.

I spoke to someone on the forum and he said he didn't think he'd even be capable of replicating what I did.

 

I don't have any plans to patent or mass produce any form of this device.

I simply wanted to share this with the forum so that anyone who had an interest could attempt their own and maybe we could collectively improve the idea. I figure, that's what a forum is for.

 

If you feel strongly that I violated something then you can have the admins remove the photos and/or this thread. It wouldn't hurt my feelings at all.

Edited August 20, 2010 by Plastik

[gregomega 929]

I simply wanted to share this with the forum so that anyone who had an interest could attempt their own and maybe we could collectively improve the idea. I figure, that's what a forum is for.

 

 

 

NOW THATS WHAT IM TALK'N BOUT!! Improving ideas and parts to the best of their function. "That" is what the forum is for IMO. is it not? I understand makeing $$ but still. Thats like patenting the conversion process itself and sucks for the common man who doesnt have lots of money to pay for the conversion. I, myself have converted one of my own and bought one already converted from CGW. Spreading my $ around when I can. I like CGW, they've done some nice work for me. But also believe such a sought after function as the LRBHO should be readily available to the masses for free. Sure If a business has a better design then you know, more power and business to them. thats that consumers decision to make

Edited August 20, 2010 by AZG

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Ill let Tom worry about the infringement thing taking place here....not my ship to sail...

 

BUT...

 

Although I think its funny how in the matter of a month a nearly identical design has come out, I am highly tickled pink (seriously Im chuckling about this part) that both creations, patented or no, have been done by some hard thinking in the matter of a day or two. So much for a 5 year project....

 

anyway, Ill leave you fine gentlemen to it...

 

Post reported.....enough of this fucking shit....

[VaiFanatic90 360]

Look who invented the car? Look how many companies out there are designing cars today? The older style Lexus sedans look just like old style Mercedes Benz's. The principle behind the car is the same, they get you from point A to point B. No one is crying foul about it that people are designing off of each other. In fact, they're probably all guilty of doing it, so they just let it be. I like where you're going with this plastik, I was looking to fabricate a LRBHO of my own for my 7.62x39. I can't even begin to list the things you could fabricate at home for any device. If you go chop down some wood to build your own bookshelf, can the guy who created the concept of bookshelves sue you? It wouldn't make sense, you created that bookshelf for your own personal use, with no intention to mass produce. If this is copyright infringement, then people are engaging in it all the time, especially the DIYers such as Plastik, myself, and many others who come to the forums to share knowledge.

 

ETA: Would honestly want to keep track of "royalties" or even expect them coming in from people out in the boonies who don't even have dial-up or know about this forum?

Edited August 20, 2010 by VaiFanatic90

[gregomega 929]

Look who invented the car? Look how many companies out there are designing cars today? The older style Lexus sedans look just like old style Mercedes Benz's. The principle behind the car is the same, they get you from point A to point B. No one is crying foul about it that people are designing off of each other. In fact, they're probably all guilty of doing it, so they just let it be. I like where you're going with this plastik, I was looking to fabricate a LRBHO of my own for my 7.62x39. I can't even begin to list the things you could fabricate at home for any device. If you go chop down some wood to build your own bookshelf, can the guy who created the concept of bookshelves sue you? It wouldn't make sense, you created that bookshelf for your own personal use, with no intention to mass produce. If this is copyright infringement, then people are engaging in it all the time, especially the DIYers such as Plastik, myself, and many others who come to the forums to share knowledge.

 

ETA: Would honestly want to keep track of "royalties" or even expect them coming in from people out in the boonies who don't even have dial-up or know about this forum?

 

Couldnt have said it better!

[VaiFanatic90 360]

Look who invented the car? Look how many companies out there are designing cars today? The older style Lexus sedans look just like old style Mercedes Benz's. The principle behind the car is the same, they get you from point A to point B. No one is crying foul about it that people are designing off of each other. In fact, they're probably all guilty of doing it, so they just let it be. I like where you're going with this plastik, I was looking to fabricate a LRBHO of my own for my 7.62x39. I can't even begin to list the things you could fabricate at home for any device. If you go chop down some wood to build your own bookshelf, can the guy who created the concept of bookshelves sue you? It wouldn't make sense, you created that bookshelf for your own personal use, with no intention to mass produce. If this is copyright infringement, then people are engaging in it all the time, especially the DIYers such as Plastik, myself, and many others who come to the forums to share knowledge.

 

ETA: Would honestly want to keep track of "royalties" or even expect them coming in from people out in the boonies who don't even have dial-up or know about this forum?

 

Couldnt have said it better!

 

Thanks. I couldn't continue to read this without showing my support for Plastik. I love what CGW did as well, but America is about freedom and having options right? The very things we gun nuts like to boast we'll protect.

[gregomega 929]

Look who invented the car? Look how many companies out there are designing cars today? The older style Lexus sedans look just like old style Mercedes Benz's. The principle behind the car is the same, they get you from point A to point B. No one is crying foul about it that people are designing off of each other. In fact, they're probably all guilty of doing it, so they just let it be. I like where you're going with this plastik, I was looking to fabricate a LRBHO of my own for my 7.62x39. I can't even begin to list the things you could fabricate at home for any device. If you go chop down some wood to build your own bookshelf, can the guy who created the concept of bookshelves sue you? It wouldn't make sense, you created that bookshelf for your own personal use, with no intention to mass produce. If this is copyright infringement, then people are engaging in it all the time, especially the DIYers such as Plastik, myself, and many others who come to the forums to share knowledge.

 

ETA: Would honestly want to keep track of "royalties" or even expect them coming in from people out in the boonies who don't even have dial-up or know about this forum?

 

Couldnt have said it better!

 

Thanks. I couldn't continue to read this without showing my support for Plastik. I love what CGW did as well, but America is about freedom and having options right? The very things we gun nuts like to boast we'll protect.

 

Yep, thats one of the things that makes America great, having the right to choose.

[cvhanh20 1,052]

If this works as I suspect, then when inserting a new mag the bolt should automatically close, right?

I don't think that would be the case. The spring pressure on the bolt is far stronger than the spring on the lever and the spring tension pushing up from the mag, plus flex of such a thin piece, you would still have to rack the tension off the catch.

 

This is very close to what I envisioned as well. Great job with spring placement, that location will allow for finding just the right tension. There are a few things I would change in over design, but he did a great job!

[Bvamp 604]

hah hah

 

*edit*

 

 

 

anyway, enough of that.... and back onto the subject at hand...

 

 

yeh its a good way to handle it, although it prevents use as-is in select fires.

 

Tom is incorporating tool steel and a couple other things into his patented design to solve some of the obvious issues. He does have a deluxe version as well.

 

I also know that Tom isnt looking to bust anybody's balls over it, but seeing how I have a plastic adapter for AK to AR stocks right in my desk that i bought from an unspecifiied manufacturer, and this plastic part is EXACTLY the same thing that I saw on the toolbenches I helped Tom unpack a couple years ago when I first got here to help out, I think hes going to not leave himself open for being ripped from a good design again. I tell ya, his tools were literally folded up with each stage of milling on each stage of the last part he had stolen right there on the benches, and he did admit that when it happened and his idea was stolen that time, that he basically folded shop right there.

 

Maybe that might help give a little perspective to the man behind the madness, from an observer's point of view.

[VaiFanatic90 360]

hah hah

 

*edit*

 

 

 

anyway, enough of that.... and back onto the subject at hand...

 

 

yeh its a good way to handle it, although it prevents use as-is in select fires.

 

Tom is incorporating tool steel and a couple other things into his patented design to solve some of the obvious issues. He does have a deluxe version as well.

 

I also know that Tom isnt looking to bust anybody's balls over it, but seeing how I have a plastic adapter for AK to AR stocks right in my desk that i bought from an unspecifiied manufacturer, and this plastic part is EXACTLY the same thing that I saw on the toolbenches I helped Tom unpack a couple years ago when I first got here to help out, I think hes going to not leave himself open for being ripped from a good design again. I tell ya, his tools were literally folded up with each stage of milling on each stage of the last part he had stolen right there on the benches, and he did admit that when it happened and his idea was stolen that time, that he basically folded shop right there.

 

Maybe that might help give a little perspective to the man behind the madness, from an observer's point of view.

 

The person who "ripped" that design obviously planned to mass produce and sell them from the start. Us DIY guys have no intention of doing so. So if I make a wooden pistol grip for someone out of the goodness of my heart, is good ol' Mikhail gonna drop the hammer on me?

[Bvamp 604]

no, but like I said, I dont think Tom is up for having his designs mass produced without seeing two cents for them either....I guess you missed my point.