What will we have to do...

[raymundo 4]

Yes!

I hope that doesn't happen. I just sent mine off to Mike for some work and haven't got to enjoy it yet.

 

Runs like a scalded ape too! Test fired it mirror polished and bone dry. Cycles like a dream

[Stansplace 414]

Very interesting information you dug up there Paulski. I am rather amazed at how far that went, and you are right about the good ol days comment for sure.

 

The one thing that drove me crazy about that entire read was the sporter discussion. The 2A doesn't say a thing about sporting guns. The fact that people have allowed this encroachment into the 2A pisses me off. And then to try and justify their arguments using the sporting argument is, well I'll just call it what it is, retarded.

 

I wonder how many of the naysayers have done drum dumps now?

 

I have to admit I have a much better understanding of why some people get so excited over this discussion even now. It was very enlightening as to why some of the review threads turned into such shit storms.

 

Crazy.

[physicsnerd 139]

Wow, I had no idea all of this had gone on!

 

I will say that it is a testament to this forum that I started lurking here in the summer of 2009 and joined a few months ago and I had NO idea this stuff had gone on. We do see some conflict on here but if someone had asked about this previously, I wouldn't have had any idea!

[busarider 23]

I was wondering the same thing myself. I can only see the mag capacity being limited on a state by state level as it already is in some states. I think or hope that the idea of trying to classify them as DD would be in conflict with other firearms as stated earlier.

[zenman223 460]

i hope their not reclassified but realistically given our current administration i think its entirely possible. i mean yes there are other shotguns with similar capacities but they don't look like an AK-47. the fact is guns are banned based on looks more than anything and just because the xrail holds 26 rounds on a wood stock rem. 870 it still likes close to grandpa's old shotty. to be honest i bought my first saiga 12(when i really couldn't afford it) b/c i just don't trust our govt. and current administration not to ban them. if someone were to use a S-12 with a drum on a shooting spree, that would be it for saiga's. as much as it sucks thats the country we live in. more and more people are anti-gun. they probably wouldnt reclassify them i think it would be alot easier to ban importation altogether. just my thoughts.

oh and to the OP i would say register and pay a tax i would imagine. which i could handle as long as they dont try and take my S-12 away !! cuz im not giving it up!!!

Edited September 26, 2010 by big-J

[Paulyski 2,227]

oh and to the OP i would say register and pay a tax i would imagine. which i could handle as long as they dont try and take my S-12 away !! cuz im not giving it up!!!

So far, from what I'm seeing, the people in the states that don't allow DDs would be fucked & if they weren't lost, stolen, or sold, those people would have to turn them in if they couldn't sell them before the set deadline.

However, those in states that DO allow DDs would be grandfathered, but still have to fill out papers, just not pay.

I can see where the passion on both sides from those earlier threads came from...

 

I've yet to find any statutes to back this though... I will eventually, but I found a whole new S-12 forum it seems...

If you look, this forum (S-12 alone) is 275 pages long. Kinda interesting to read it as it came about.

Back in the day, the long-timers here were SOOO stoked to see wood thumbholes that could fit the unconverted S-12. The first guy that started converting them as a business is long gone... When Tome Cole first made a select fire S-12 everyone said it was a toy.

This forum has had a fascinating evolution.

 

ETA;

Looks like a bunch of people shit a cinder-block sideways when making 10 round stick mags was planned too.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=4951&st=60

 

My favorite post from the thread;

 

This is way more interesting than the Troll issue on the Moderator thread. Much more funnt too!!

 

But what the hell. Let the bashing, humor and bullshit continue. It's entertaining anyway!!!

 

Wolverine

 

Edited September 27, 2010 by Paulyski

[Ductapeman 1]

This started well before Mike's drum-- as memory serves, the Chicken Littles began squawking when the boys at AGP announced their ten-round mag, in '05 I think. "Common wisdom" was that anything made domestically over five rounds (the standard Russian 8 rounder being quite scarce, and not normally imported) was going to cause the sky to fall and all of us to lose our guns. A whole lot of the threads had titles that looked just like this one. It's been five years, and they still haven't reclassified the guns--

[Paulyski 2,227]

This started well before Mike's drum-- as memory serves, the Chicken Littles began squawking when the boys at AGP announced their ten-round mag, in '05 I think. "Common wisdom" was that anything made domestically over five rounds (the standard Russian 8 rounder being quite scarce, and not normally imported) was going to cause the sky to fall and all of us to lose our guns. A whole lot of the threads had titles that looked just like this one. It's been five years, and they still haven't reclassified the guns--

I think I'm on that thread at the very moment...

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=7226&st=0

[Paulyski 2,227]

Kinda curious why G.O.B. & superfag67 felt the need to neg a perfectly reasonable question? (My original post)

 

I understand G.O.B., being as he was at the front lines with all the other chicken littles swearing that we would all lose our guns the second that anyone made a larger capacity domestic mag, & he might feel like he's still eating crow over that one...

 

Maybe Superfag67 just doesn't like my magnetic personality so he wants to troll me???

Can't please everyone I guess.

 

Well, I found the answer of what has happened to people in the past when other guns have been labled DDs...

Thanks for starting the thread a LONG time ago 6500rpm.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=8383

 

 

I hate to see how this forum has turned into a product pimp and smack thing lately. Seems like anything else that money ruins it all. At least some of the faux LRBHO "snakes" have fallen away.

Hey tnek!

You're right! Sporting purposes!!!

That IS a sport!

 

Also,

Maybe $$$ has gotten more involved, but after a day of researching the first few years of the forum, other than the first year, not much has changed, other than the amount of info & resources have greatly increased.

The behaviors have remained consistent, so unless one was around in the first year....

You're kidding yourselves about those mythical "good-ol-days"

Edited September 27, 2010 by Paulyski

[Paulyski 2,227]

I just want to see all the pic of the clown girl!! Sweet! If she is your girl your a LUCKY SOB!!!

She's a porn star.

 

Google Lexi Belle & Lexi Belle clown.

You'll find I cropped the pics for avatars.

 

I rub too many the wrong way to post any of my girlfriends's pics as avatars.

If anyone threatened to harm them, I'd have to take a road trip... Tracking is easy for me as I've demonstrated.

[theorangeplanet 968]

I've been refreshing myself on some of the key wording in the NFA, getting ready to get into the AWB, when I noticed this little blurb on wikipedia:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act

 

"In 1938, the United States District Court for the Western District of Arkansas ruled the statute unconstitutional in United States v. Miller. The defendant Miller had been arrested for possession of an unregistered short double-barreled shotgun, and for "unlawfully...transporting [it] in interstate commerce from Claremore, Oklahoma to Siloam Springs, Arkansas" which perfected the crime.^[10] The government's argument was that the short barreled shotgun was not a military-type weapon and thus not a "militia" weapon protected by the Second Amendment, from federal infringement. The District Court agreed with Miller's argument that the shotgun was legal under the Second Amendment."

 

 

Turns out this case never successfully went to the Supreme Court... but if it had and they ruled in favor of the US, it could have (in theory) made the AWB impossible to implement. Any thoughts?

[Gibbles 23]

 

 

+1

[G O B 3,516]

We face a hostile administration, and uncle BATFuck is a bear. I just do not believe in poking the bear with sharp sticks - nothing good can come of it!

 

That said, there is very little chance of this happening TODAY, and there was a GOOD chance of it happening years ago. Why? NUMBERS! It is easy to declare something that is limited to a few hundred examples at most a DD and prohibit any more from sale how many Strykers and Street Sweepers were there? It is quite another to gather the balls to declare something that has many thousands of examples and an established infrastructure of merchants and accessory manufacturers.

Sales of S-12's this year alone are probably many times the number of S-12's in the country back then.Still... why poke the bear if you can let his lazy ass sleep?

[Paulyski 2,227]

We face a hostile administration, and uncle BATFuck is a bear. I just do not believe in poking the bear with sharp sticks - nothing good can come of it!

I hate to repeat myself, but I will this time...

 

We live free & prosper in this country because of our understanding of the laws of the land, & the loopholes there in. When one doesn't have the fortitude to disregard laws that don't exist, they're a slave to an imaginary master.

If we take our rights, we keep our rights & make our rights... However if we cower, hoping to blend into the woodwork, we will still be noticed & they'll strip us of our rights as we cower in silence.

 

I do love this post. It says it quite well...

 

Personally I think this is a sad, sad day now.

 

Obviously we now have a distinct division in the gun owners of America. On one hand we have the guys going:

 

"I bought a gun, I want to put whatever I want on it. How do you guys think I can go about building <N> device"?

 

Then you have group number two:

 

"Oh no!! You shouldn't do <N> to your gun. You're being selfish, by spending your dollars, and then not thinking about others. What if this, what if that is banned by Government Entity <N>?

 

 

Let me be brief. In group one we have generally law abiding people who have a dream of doing whatever they want, government be damned!! But if such a law is passed curbing their activities the vast majority will still abide by the new law.

 

Now in group two we have the Chicken Little, sky is falling (heh, or sky might be falling) attitude. This group is worrying about what MIGHT happen. And they might be right. They fit the bill of group number one, generally law abiding, civil. But there is one major difference. They are operating on past, present, and perhaps even non-existent future events. They generally have the same hopes and dreams, but are willing to curb them out of fear. Rather than live by principle.

 

I got a question for the both of you; If a government, such as ours. Who has a bill of rights in place; (Meaning they are certain inalienable rights that every human has, citizen or not. Granted by no man, but certainly oppressed by many men.) If then

this government starts to put oppressive laws unto you, and they continually pile them on, one after another. My question now, how long before you finally say;

"No!"...

 

Look let me be blunt. The very thing you are accusing the pro-drum guys of, that they are selfish. You yourselves are guilty of. I say you are being selfish, not to fellow gun owners of today. But the future generation. You are rolling over and sacrificing certain liberties to live in peace now, but the future is what is payed out to cover your amnesties now. The British Empire taxed our great, wonderful, sorry, rebellious little country to the point it cracked. A bunch of guys in Boston finally said; "Enough!" Then they went out and broke the law and threw a bunch of tea into the harbor. Well the rest is history. (BTW: Remind a Lib that our country was founded by breaking the law, it drives them nuts.)

 

Now I'm not planning on starting a flame war here, or trying to start a revolt against our government, or anything like that. I'm trying to get you to ask yourself a question really. I either expect many to sound off and not reason by logic to what I have just said. Or as is the order of the day, simply roll over with an apathetic compliance.

 

I will tell you that I personally have mentally drawn a line. I go; "Okay, you tax me, fine I'll pay out. Even though you guys are tyrants about it. Okay you are killing babies, that is murder". But even though this is horribly wrong, and really no different than Pagan ritualistic blood/fire offerings. I'm not going to start shooting doctors. But now if they walk up to me and start saying; "Papers please"... Or they want me to hand over my guns forget it. I'll make a stand, and I won't mind dying for it. Look, when I walk out of Sam's Club. Well when I used to shop there, I would NOT let the SS guy at the door look at my receipt. It's MY receipt. He has no business looking at it. I give him an option, he either tries to have a bully arrest me, or he drops it. They have always dropped it. There is a certain moral force that the common man has. And you stick by it, or eventually you put yourself in servitude. Which are you? A tolerant citizen, who can only be pushed so far? Or are you an unwilling future subject of the state?

 

Regards,

 

Nelson

 

I will not cower to non-existant laws, or the threats there of.

How does a bear fend off another bear?

For damn sure, not by rolling belly up!

[Stansplace 414]

We face a hostile administration, and uncle BATFuck is a bear. I just do not believe in poking the bear with sharp sticks - nothing good can come of it!

 

That said, there is very little chance of this happening TODAY, and there was a GOOD chance of it happening years ago. Why? NUMBERS! It is easy to declare something that is limited to a few hundred examples at most a DD and prohibit any more from sale how many Strykers and Street Sweepers were there? It is quite another to gather the balls to declare something that has many thousands of examples and an established infrastructure of merchants and accessory manufacturers.

Sales of S-12's this year alone are probably many times the number of S-12's in the country back then.Still... why poke the bear if you can let his lazy ass sleep?

 

 

First off, I don't usually disagree with the so called old timers on the forum. That being said, this right here, please see above, is the EXACT attitude that is eroding our country out from under our feet. This is a PERFECT example of what the problem is in the United States of America. You know, the land of the free, the home of the brave!

 

Fuck the bear, it's our fucking bear. The attitude should be that we feed the bear what we want him to eat. If he doesn't like it, fuck him. If he growls at us for poking his ass, we slap the shit out of him. If he bites us for slapping his ass, we put one between his fucking eyes and get a new bear.

 

^This is what the founding fathers intended and anything other than this is brain washing the people into believing the giant PR campaign that is being promulgated on the American people. It is amazing what a man can learn to eat if it is fed to him a little at the time over a long period of time.

 

What do you honestly think the founding fathers of our country would do if they could be brought to the here and now and see what is happening to this country they built.

 

Honestly...............

 

No disrespect intended whatsoever G.O.B. and this is not directed at you personally to start some drama. This is quite simply put, the facts as I see them.

 

ETA: Stepping away from the soapbox......

Edited September 27, 2010 by Stansplace

[pedal2alloy 206]

Stansplace is right.

 

The discussion is not about how you are going to comply with more and more unconstitutional shit that is forced down your throat.

 

It is about exercising the rights that you still have, preventing them from being further eroded and getting back the rights that were taken away.

[SaigaKen 338]

We face a hostile administration, and uncle BATFuck is a bear. I just do not believe in poking the bear with sharp sticks - nothing good can come of it!

 

That said, there is very little chance of this happening TODAY, and there was a GOOD chance of it happening years ago. Why? NUMBERS! It is easy to declare something that is limited to a few hundred examples at most a DD and prohibit any more from sale how many Strykers and Street Sweepers were there? It is quite another to gather the balls to declare something that has many thousands of examples and an established infrastructure of merchants and accessory manufacturers.

Sales of S-12's this year alone are probably many times the number of S-12's in the country back then.Still... why poke the bear if you can let his lazy ass sleep?

 

 

First off, I don't usually disagree with the so called old timers on the forum. That being said, this right here, please see above, is the EXACT attitude that is eroding our country out from under our feet. This is a PERFECT example of what the problem is in the United States of America. You know, the land of the free, the home of the brave!

 

Fuck the bear, it's our fucking bear. The attitude should be that we feed the bear what we want him to eat. If he doesn't like it, fuck him. If he growls at us for poking his ass, we slap the shit out of him. If he bites us for slapping his ass, we put one between his fucking eyes and get a new bear.

 

^This is what the founding fathers intended and anything other than this is brain washing the people into believing the giant PR campaign that is being promulgated on the American people. It is amazing what a man can learn to eat if it is fed to him a little at the time over a long period of time.

 

What do you honestly think the founding fathers of our country would do if they could be brought to the here and now and see what is happening to this country they built.

 

Honestly...............

 

No disrespect intended whatsoever G.O.B. and this is not directed at you personally to start some drama. This is quite simply put, the facts as I see them.

 

ETA: Stepping away from the soapbox......

 

 

F'ing right on man!

[kmoore 3]

Wow! Those threads sure got intense! Some of the comments towards Mike were downright threatening. It's pretty amazing to think that now, everyone here owns at least one of his drums and friggin' Promag mass-produces copies. I wonder what caused the forum establishment to change their minds on the drums and unban Mike? Did the BATF rule or speak out on this matter and make it OK? When did Alliance Armament come out with their drums? For some reason, I always thought that they were the first with this.

 

Alliance offered their drum ~ a year earlier than Mike, IIRC. I think I was the first of the AA adopters on this board (?), I wrote this post http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=18771&st=0&p=160662&hl=drum&fromsearch=1entry160662

 

That is dated Aug 2007, I think they were shipping drums in July 2007. Can't remember when Mikes drums came out, I meant to get some of the early ones, but finances and priorities changed and I had 2 of the AA drums that run great. I did finally get some of his when price went to $100 ... now I'm contemplating more.

 

The confusion likely comes from the fact that Mike announced the drum project (before anyone else), then wm joined (as a business partner) and announced they not only were working on them, but that they were near release.... I think WM wasn't too aware of the forum, and had done most of the development behind the scenes and un announced.

 

Oh, and if you think there's some heat in some of those old threads (there is) ..... a lot of stuff got deleted too!!! you are looking at the TV-R version, the TV-MA stuff is on the editing room floor! Those were the good old days.

 

As for DD, bottom line is no one really knows. A lot of what happened to the USAS12 and striker and streetsweeper was brought up by those much smarter than me and might give some ideas? But as similar as the S12 is, it's different enough that you never really know. I thought one intriguing idea (not mine) was that the drums might be registered as DD's as the shotguns are often otherwise sporting legal guns...

 

But, for now the gungrabbing crowd seems to have lost power and that crew has bit off more than it cares for with healthcare debacle they've tied themselves to. The election should clear the way for the next few years ... liberals will need to regroup.