Another reliability mod idea (NOT for everybody)

[Paulyski 2,227]

So, I did a test to see how long my S-12 could run reliably without cleaning.

 

I shot 200 rounds a little over a month ago, came home & didn't clean it.

Last week, I shot another 400. Perfect, not one malfunction.

 

Two days ago I took it out & had 200 rounds with me.

 

After aprox 100 rounds, while I was filming a drum & stick mag dump, I had a failure to fully lock into breech.

This happened on the 5th round from an AGP that I just got a new spring for, since it was one from the shipment that had springs that would rust & shatter.

 

I didn't clean the rust dust out of the mag before I replaced the spring.

 

To get it shooting again, I just had to reset the hammer & push the charging handle the rest of the way in. The shell did make it in the breech, just failed to completely seat.

 

Upon inspection, I found the gas block was caked with the usual crap, just a whole lot of it.

The puck was jamming just enough to not let the carrier completely lock up.

 

So, I was thinking... It may have been in part a mag hiccup, robbing power, then the jamming puck creating the death blow. It fired a bunch more, flawlessly after the hiccup, so I assume the mag had something to do with it.

 

I figure, to start, I'll weaken the extractor spring a touch to make it require less energy to lock up. (when I looked at the failure, the shell wasn't locked into the extractor yet)

Also, I was thinking if I were to strengthen the recoil spring it would be able to overcome the piston getting jammed in the block.

Anyone with a really reliable gun try anything like this in their pursuit of perfection yet?

 

The failure to properly lock into breech is at the 47 second mark of the dump video I was shooting. It wasn't caused by a lack of bracing it against the shoulder as my test demonstrates at the end of the video.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfCfAVde90A

[chevyman097 2,579]

Cool vid Pauly.

 

What track is that playing?

 

And she looks like she handles up on the saiga pretty well. You trained well.

[Paulyski 2,227]

Cool vid Pauly.

 

What track is that playing?

 

And she looks like she handles up on the saiga pretty well. You trained well.

The track is listed on the Youtube vid when viewed on Youtube. It's 10 min & can be purchased there for a buck.

Also, that's her first time ever shooting the S-12. She's more of a long range shooter. .308 is her favorite round, so that's likely why she can handle it well.

[SaigaKen 338]

Cool vid Pauly.

 

What track is that playing?

 

And she looks like she handles up on the saiga pretty well. You trained well.

The track is listed on the Youtube vid when viewed on Youtube. It's 10 min & can be purchased there for a buck.

Also, that's her first time ever shooting the S-12. She's more of a long range shooter. .308 is her favorite round, so that's likely why she can handle it well.

 

 

Damn, she shoots like a badass

 

Looks like she really enjoys the S12.....

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Pauly...all past BS aside....I admire your mindset here with the reliabilty issues and how the gun changes after going through a certain amount of rounds with the stock puck and gas plug (at least that's how I run mine).

To answer the question, yes I have been doing some mods to the extractor spring to counter the lockup difficulty, and have had very favorable results. Before even trying this I consulted with well known gurus about such a mod and was told to try it at my own risk of reliability. In doing this in my own gun, I have been amazed at the results. Just to see how far you can actually go and still have reliability, I even replaced the extractor spring (just to test for function) with a lightweight brass spring out of a damn ballpoint pen....and it runs everything like that without a hiccup....even Remington Sluggers. I haven't tried 3" turkey loads yet but it may just work fine with that as well. There's a lot of resistance in that last quarter inch of an unmodded gun when the bolt closes. IMO removing all resistance possible only makes MY gun run better. Until I see a failure due to one of my own mods, then I will continue to believe this. On mine you can not even feel any change at all in pressure exerted on the recoil spring (resistance) as the bolt closes. This is just an experiment I have done to my own gun with favorable results. Like you said, not for everyone....

That said, there are some people out there who have my modded bolts in their guns who are quite happy with them, and I did some tuning to their extractors as well....nothing near what I'm experimenting with on mine, but they do close with much less resistance....as in you cant stop them by riding it home, no matter what.

 

Of course...cleaning the gun before it starts baking brownies inside the gas block, is definitely recommended.

 

[YOT 3,743]

Cool

[Paulyski 2,227]

Pauly...all past BS aside....I admire your mindset here with the reliabilty issues and how the gun changes after going through a certain amount of rounds with the stock puck and gas plug (at least that's how I run mine).

To answer the question, yes I have been doing some mods to the extractor spring to counter the lockup difficulty, and have had very favorable results. Before even trying this I consulted with well known gurus about such a mod and was told to try it at my own risk of reliability. In doing this in my own gun, I have been amazed at the results. Just to see how far you can actually go and still have reliability, I even replaced the extractor spring (just to test for function) with a lightweight brass spring out of a damn ballpoint pen....and it runs everything like that without a hiccup....even Remington Sluggers. I haven't tried 3" turkey loads yet but it may just work fine with that as well. There's a lot of resistance in that last quarter inch of an unmodded gun when the bolt closes. IMO removing all resistance possible only makes MY gun run better. Until I see a failure due to one of my own mods, then I will continue to believe this. On mine you can not even feel any change at all in pressure exerted on the recoil spring (resistance) as the bolt closes. This is just an experiment I have done to my own gun with favorable results. Like you said, not for everyone....

That said, there are some people out there who have my modded bolts in their guns who are quite happy with them, and I did some tuning to their extractors as well....nothing near what I'm experimenting with on mine, but they do close with much less resistance....as in you cant stop them by riding it home, no matter what.

 

Of course...cleaning the gun before it starts baking brownies inside the gas block, is definitely recommended.

Yeah, I agree with the cleaning, I just wanted to know how many rounds till reliability suffered.

 

I intend on the extractor spring mod, but I think it'll be interesting to increase the recoil spring's power too.

I figure a tougher recoil spring may just give it enough push to knock the puck forward.

Of course, then you wonder about reliability from doing that.

It's a fine balancing act.

 

It never ends.

Trying to get Glock long term reliability out of something that started out as a vodka special...

The saying "if it aint broke don't fix it" comes to mind... But it's an obsession. Obsessions are rarely rational.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

 

Yeah, I agree with the cleaning, I just wanted to know how many rounds till reliability suffered.

I've seen em go to the point where the crap biscuit is so big in there, it's all you can see when you remove the gas plug. Then you have to literally drive the thing out with the puck using a wooden dowel or cleaning rod from behind, hitting it with a hammer.

Ask Bvamp about that one...

 

The saying "if it aint broke don't fix it" comes to mind...

 

I can't ever wrap my head around that frame of mind.....anything can be improved upon with enough determination and imagination.

 

[vitamink 90]

HA! "crap biscuit"

[Frosty 9]

Do any of you guys RELOAD your own shot shells.

 

A cleaner burning powder would go a long way for longevity between cleaning and weapon life span. Clays is very good and so is TiteWAD. (not Titegroup)

 

But, on the other hand, if you don't then its a treasure hunt for the cleanest burning factory loaded round................well...........there is an awful lot of that to choose from.

 

Paulyski, your right about the fine balancing act.

 

Could some one post a picture of the extractor and its spring. I don't have my S12 yet (coming this weekend). I am curious about its relationship to the breech area and this last amount of space before lock up.

 

I had something happen similar for a registered Sten MKII and heavy ( 150 grn ) 9mm loads for a suppressor.

 

 

Best

 

Frosty

Edited October 2, 2010 by Frosty

[mikegraffam 11]

Like you said, not for everyone....

That said, there are some people out there who have my modded bolts in their guns who are quite happy with them, and I did some tuning to their extractors as well....nothing near what I'm experimenting with on mine, but they do close with much less resistance....as in you cant stop them by riding it home, no matter what.

 

I've almost got my Saiga-12 to that level. I can ride it home nearly all the way, and it will close. But if I lightly set the bolt down on the breech, that last 1/4" won't lock up. Its much better than it was (just give the gun a little shake and it locks up) but I'd like to get it 'perfect'.

 

It hadn't occurred to me that spring tension of the extractors was contributing to this. I only polished the bolt and carrier.

 

Any picks on how to get to the extractor springs?

[Gunfixr 76]

Part of my conversions is reworking the cutout for the extractor in the barrel. Of course, you can't get too crazy in there, or you'll lose case head support, and some shells will bulge out into the notch.

Thebig fixer, though, is the barrel/bolt cam, where it bumps the bolt to start it rotating. Adjusting that will really smooth up closing.

[mikegraffam 11]

Part of my conversions is reworking the cutout for the extractor in the barrel. Of course, you can't get too crazy in there, or you'll lose case head support, and some shells will bulge out into the notch.

Thebig fixer, though, is the barrel/bolt cam, where it bumps the bolt to start it rotating. Adjusting that will really smooth up closing.

 

Yeah, I smoothed that up nicely. It worked wonders for sure. It locks up nicely now, but isn't perfect. With the muzzle pointed up I can lightly ride the bolt home and put it at rest w/o it locking up. If I do that, and lower the muzzle, when it gets to about 45 degrees off the vertical, it snaps home. So there is just a tiny bit of friction that, when combined with gravity, can overcome the strength of the recoil spring.

 

Maybe I'll polish it up some more with a finer grit. Its just annoying me that I can't overcome that last nit in the action.

 

I've thought about cutting up one of my spare M1A springs and using that in the S12 for a bit more powerful spring. That seems like cheating though I'm on the fence though because it will probably make cycling low power loads less reliable. OTOH, I mostly shoot full power Rio buck, so eating up some more of that recoil and getting the action tip-top at the same time might be nice.

[Paulyski 2,227]

Michael G.

What we're talking about is lessening the extractor spring pressure, to help it seat easier & increasing the recoil spring's pressure, to help overcome a dirty block or hiccups from near FTFs that rob power, but still get in the breech, but don't lock up in the extractor.

Part of my reasoning for increased recoil spring pressure is to be able to knock a puck forward in a really dirty gas block.

 

I think you were refering to the extractor spring when you said;

So there is just a tiny bit of friction that, when combined with gravity, can overcome the strength of the recoil spring.

Probably just a slip of tongue, but I don't want anyone to get confused.

 

Just some good info to know.... The extractor spring, is a standard AK extractor spring. I replaced one extractor spring on another bolt with a standard AK's extractor spring from Brownells & it was the same spring as that which I was replacing. Just in case...

 

Any picks on how to get to the extractor springs?

 

Here's a quick step-by-step that I just shot for you.

 

The pin holding the extractor & spring in place, is the hole pictured here. It's smaller on the side you insert the punch in.

The other pinhole to the rear of the one circled holds the bolt face section on & is removed when one needs to access the firing pin & springs assembly. You insert the punch from the opposite side pictured. But that is not needed for this modification.

 

 

Insert the punch from the cleaning kit & tap it a few times.

In the field, your bolt carrier will suffice as a hammer if you have nothing else.

 

 

Here it all is broken down;

 

 

To weaken the spring, I'll begin with just removing about 1.5 coils & see how that works.

Like I said, replacements are available from Brownell's for $7.99 if I were to go to far. It's just an AK extractor spring not special to the S-12. S-20s run the same spring too.

 

While I'm at it, I may as well polish the extractor's sides, as they are small friction points, so why not.

 

If i end up increasing the strength of the recoil spring, I may just re-reprofile the bolt.

 

My bolt mod was a minor one where I primarily de-horned & polished without removing as much steel as many do & it has worked great for me so far..

 

 

If I increase the recoil spring force however, I may need to further lessen any friction caused by the bolt's transitions.

It would be the most logical place to trade resistance.

 

Like I said, it's a bunch of give & take to achieve the perfect balance.

Edited October 2, 2010 by Paulyski

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

...Anyone with a really reliable gun try anything like this in their pursuit of perfection yet?...

 

No.

 

I think I have one of the most reliable S-12's around, (since LSA worked her over). If I shot ~1000 rnds without cleaning, I might have to adjust the modified plug to setting 2 for birdshot.

 

Otherwise, she's good, with whatever. Regardless, I don't mind cleaning every 400 rnds or so.

 

I don't particularly like the thought of weakening any springs that affect how the gun cycles. If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it.

 

ymmv.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

...308 is her favorite round, so that's likely why she can handle it well.

 

Ya might have a "keeper" there, Paul. She ain't too hard on the eyes, either.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Part of my conversions is reworking the cutout for the extractor in the barrel. Of course, you can't get too crazy in there, or you'll lose case head support, and some shells will bulge out into the notch.

Thebig fixer, though, is the barrel/bolt cam, where it bumps the bolt to start it rotating. Adjusting that will really smooth up closing.

 

Yeah, I smoothed that up nicely. It worked wonders for sure. It locks up nicely now, but isn't perfect. With the muzzle pointed up I can lightly ride the bolt home and put it at rest w/o it locking up. If I do that, and lower the muzzle, when it gets to about 45 degrees off the vertical, it snaps home. So there is just a tiny bit of friction that, when combined with gravity, can overcome the strength of the recoil spring.

 

Maybe I'll polish it up some more with a finer grit. Its just annoying me that I can't overcome that last nit in the action...

 

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=FBLz__aT9-I

 

[Paulyski 2,227]

...Anyone with a really reliable gun try anything like this in their pursuit of perfection yet?...

 

No.

 

I don't particularly like the thought of weakening any springs that affect how the gun cycles. If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it.

 

ymmv.

Too bad.

 

Mike already weakened / "tuned" your extractor spring on your gun.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

...Anyone with a really reliable gun try anything like this in their pursuit of perfection yet?...

 

No.

 

I don't particularly like the thought of weakening any springs that affect how the gun cycles. If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it.

 

ymmv.

Too bad.

 

Mike already weakened / "tuned" your extractor spring on your gun.

 

Maybe. I thought of that after I posted the above. He did mention "tuning" the extractor.. but he may have done it by carefully reshaping, rather than weakening the spring. I'll ask him.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

 

Yeah, I agree with the cleaning, I just wanted to know how many rounds till reliability suffered.

I've seen em go to the point where the crap biscuit is so big in there, it's all you can see when you remove the gas plug. Then you have to literally drive the thing out with the puck using a wooden dowel or cleaning rod from behind, hitting it with a hammer.

Ask Bvamp about that one...

I remember that... I seem to recall a favorite comment about it being something to the effect of...

 

"I don't care, I think someone should clean their gun every thousend rounds or so even if it dosn't need it."

 

Personaly my penchant for 3" magnums has done quite a bit to help my guns smooth out. Its a fun ride to go through a hundred or more of them in a single session.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

...Personaly my penchant for 3" magnums has done quite a bit to help my guns smooth out. Its a fun ride to go through a hundred or more of them in a single session.

 

Yeah, I bet that's fun.. but would cost ~$100+. Do you get the 3" shells cheaper or do you just not mind spending that much per range session?

 

Over $100.. that's >500 rnds of 7.62x39, which I would personally find a lot more fun. I shoot almost all 2 3/4" shells through my S-12 anymore, (lotta birdshot, but the 2 3/4" buckshot and slugs are more than powerful enough imo).

 

ymmv.

[Paulyski 2,227]

...Personaly my penchant for 3" magnums has done quite a bit to help my guns smooth out. Its a fun ride to go through a hundred or more of them in a single session.

 

Yeah, I bet that's fun.. but would cost ~$100+. Do you get the 3" shells cheaper or do you just not mind spending that much per range session?

 

Over $100.. that's >500 rnds of 7.62x39, which I would personally find a lot more fun. I shoot almost all 2 3/4" shells through my S-12 anymore, (lotta birdshot, but the 2 3/4" buckshot and slugs are more than powerful enough imo).

 

ymmv.

Wally world has Remmington 3"magnum 15 pellet .00 buck for less than 12.00 for 15 rounds.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

Even better bulk packs of winchester steel goose rounds...

 

about $0.50 a round. Thats reasonable.

 

http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_-1_10001_48921_425004003_425000000_425004000?channel=froogle&mr:trackingCode=03CF3BAF-03A7-DF11-904F-002219319097&mr:referralID=NA

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

...Personaly my penchant for 3" magnums has done quite a bit to help my guns smooth out. Its a fun ride to go through a hundred or more of them in a single session.

 

Yeah, I bet that's fun.. but would cost ~$100+. Do you get the 3" shells cheaper or do you just not mind spending that much per range session?

 

Over $100.. that's >500 rnds of 7.62x39, which I would personally find a lot more fun. I shoot almost all 2 3/4" shells through my S-12 anymore, (lotta birdshot, but the 2 3/4" buckshot and slugs are more than powerful enough imo).

 

ymmv.

Wally world has Remmington 3"magnum 15 pellet .00 buck for less than 12.00 for 15 rounds.

 

Nice. Still.. that's a helluva lot more than 7.62x39, and 2 3/4" shells are cheaper as well. I guess I've just been more into the rifle, lately. *shrug*

 

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=9_t_OnW-DTY

[Paulyski 2,227]

...308 is her favorite round, so that's likely why she can handle it well.

 

Ya might have a "keeper" there, Paul. She ain't too hard on the eyes, either.

We're just really good friends.

It would never work out. We're too different. We've lived together & I know. I love the hell outta her, she's just really independent & not into kids.

She is drop dead gorgeous & VERY feminine when she dresses up though... I mean absolutely stunning, with class.

But yeah, she's a really cool chick too. She's the first girl who I've run into who likes to change her truck's oil...

It's kinda different handing a girly-girl tools while SHE works on the rig.

Edited October 2, 2010 by Paulyski

[mikegraffam 11]

 

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=FBLz__aT9-I

 

 

Nice. But does it jump home with the muzzle pointed straight up too?

[saigaguy09 3]

Are you guys getting that smooth lockup with the hammer cocked back?

 

If I rack the bolt back and then guide it forward slowly, it always hangs up.

 

But if the hammer's foreward it locks-up almost every time.

[mikegraffam 11]

Michael G.

What we're talking about is lessening the extractor spring pressure, to help it seat easier & increasing the recoil spring's pressure, to help overcome a dirty block or hiccups from near FTFs that rob power, but still get in the breech, but don't lock up in the extractor.

Part of my reasoning for increased recoil spring pressure is to be able to knock a puck forward in a really dirty gas block.

 

I think you were refering to the extractor spring when you said;

So there is just a tiny bit of friction that, when combined with gravity, can overcome the strength of the recoil spring.

Probably just a slip of tongue, but I don't want anyone to get confused.

 

I gotcha. Sounds like it would be fine to me if you only shoot buck and slug ammo. I know when my S12 is dirty, that gas puck really doesn't want to move. Seems to me that you'd need a pretty beefy recoil spring to help overcome that. Buck would probably still cycle, I'm not sure about target loads though.

 

I actually wasn't referring to the extractor spring (but that probably is contributing to the friction) .. my action locks home if I lightly set the bolt against the breech (with the muzzle parallel to the ground). Like seen in the vid here. But when I point the muzzle straight up and do the same, it will catch. As I lower the muzzle, the bolt will snap home when I get to about 45 degrees. Seems like the recoil spring can't overcome the friction and gravity at the same time.

 

I'm going to try some more reshaping and polishing, I think. If I still can't get it, I'll chop a bit off the extractor spring too.

[Frosty 9]

I would just polish the extractor and the inner breech area.

 

Yes, polish the inner breech area. This will greatly help with feeding and extraction. A VERY smooth inner area where the shell makes contact will go a long way. Especially when it comes to extraction.

As the shell wall (even though its plastic) expands it tries to grab onto the walls of the chamber.

 

Take a wooden dowel and wrap a sock around one end and secure it with a rubber band. Your sock and sandpaper should be the same length as a 3" magnum shell. Now take some 2,000 grit automotive sand paper and wrap it around the sock. Attach it also with a rubber band. Chuck it into a drill and start SLOWLY and then increase the speed. Remember to put the dowel in the barrel first and then add your sock/sander. Yes, it will be a little cramped in their but it will work..........just take your time. I have done this to 1911's, shotguns, Several revolvers (cylinder). And it helps every time. Try it wont hurt it.

 

Some resistance is a good thing in the final lock up. Its making sure that it (the bolt) is firmly in place and the shell is locked into battery.

 

 

 

Best

Frosty

Edited October 2, 2010 by Frosty

[mikegraffam 11]

Are you guys getting that smooth lockup with the hammer cocked back?

 

If I rack the bolt back and then guide it forward slowly, it always hangs up.

 

But if the hammer's foreward it locks-up almost every time.

 

Yes, my action closes up without any force required from the hammer spring. Sounds like you never polished your action; or if you did, all you did was take the finish off.