Need clarification to a NY law??

[Kss_Waylander 0]

I just read in one of the stickies that in NY state it is illegal to convery my Saiga 12 because a protruding pistol grip underneath the receiver of any shotgun that is detachable magazine fed is illegal. Is this true?

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

Yes. You cannot do a "standard" S-12 conversion in NY (or NJ, MA, or CA) however there are a few New Yorkers on here who converted it with a "thumbhole" stock. I am sure they will be along soon to help you with the legal info they have about your state.

[nsdhanoa 13]

Technically, thumbhole stocks are legal but I would advise you to proceed with caution. The AWB in NY is deliberately fuzzy on its definitions of what is legal and what isn't. For example, if a particular cop thinks your thumbhole stock has too much of a vertical angle on the grip, he/she could decide that it is a pistol grip. All the actual law says is that a detachable mag shotgun is illegal if it has "a pistol grip which protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon". That seems like a completely subjective judgement to me. Same thing goes with muzzle devices. Muzzle brakes are technically legal but any cop or prosecutor can look at your muzzle brake and say that it also could be capable of hiding some muzzle flash, and therefore illegal.

[Kss_Waylander 0]

Well I currently have the Dragunov style stock on it (Russian made one) and I guess it will be staying on. It has the pistol grip style grip built in so I suppose that's the best NYS is going to allow me!

[mikegraffam 11]

Technically, thumbhole stocks are legal but I would advise you to proceed with caution. The AWB in NY is deliberately fuzzy on its definitions of what is legal and what isn't. For example, if a particular cop thinks your thumbhole stock has too much of a vertical angle on the grip, he/she could decide that it is a pistol grip. All the actual law says is that a detachable mag shotgun is illegal if it has "a pistol grip which protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon". That seems like a completely subjective judgement to me. Same thing goes with muzzle devices. Muzzle brakes are technically legal but any cop or prosecutor can look at your muzzle brake and say that it also could be capable of hiding some muzzle flash, and therefore illegal.

 

I don't find the AWB fuzzy at all. It is the '94 Federal text verbatim. And detachable mag shotguns with pistol grips are not necessarily illegal. The round count matters.

 

The NYS penal code (it can be read here: http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/web/NewYork/ny3%28b%29.htm) says that the following is an assault weapon, and therefore illegal:

 

(b.) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following characteristics:

 

(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

 

(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

 

(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds;

 

(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine;

 

The Saiga, obviously has #4. That is the one allowed evil feature. You must therefore have a "fixed" stock. There is no law pertaining to muzzle devices - brakes or flash suppressors - on shotguns. There is no law for bayonets on shotguns. There is NYS rulings to the effect that a stock can fold, or collapse - but that to work it one must use some tool or another. So, for example NY legal AR buttstocks which require a tool to collapse them would be legal on your Saiga.

 

But pistol grips on such a stock are not legal, so it doesn't really matter.

 

There is no case law in New York to settle what is, or is not, a pistol grip. We have no clear ruling on thumbhole stocks. What we do have is the OLD (and now, outdated) ATF ruling on the matter. NY is not bound to accept this. However, if your thumbhole stock would be permitted by ATF (web of the thumb remains above trigger level) and you demonstrated a good-faith effort to keep your gun legal, you would likely be given the opportunity to correct the situation at such time as it was determined to be illegal.

 

That is why I advise AGAINST converting a Saiga-12 in NY. If NY ever rules against thumbholes (as Cali has done) - and you have a converted gun - you're hosed.. it will be very difficult to restore it to the factory set up.

 

There is at least one thumbhole stock made for a factory Saiga which does not need to have the trigger group moved. If you go this route, you'll be able to reinstall the factory buttstock easily should you ever need to.

 

Also note, that "revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12" are illegal in NY. I believe that would also cover the Saiga drums, though no one likes to talk about that.

 

Lastly, there are some exceptions to all this as alluded to above - for example:

 

(e) provided, however, that such term does not include:

(iii) a semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine;

 

(v) a semiautomatic rifle, a semiautomatic shotgun or a semiautomatic pistol or any of the weapons defined in paragraph (d) of this subdivision lawfully possessed prior to September fourteenth, nineteen hundred ninety-four.

 

Now. No Saigas were lawfully owned prior to 9/14/94 - but if there where, like for other guns, this provision would overrule any of the regulations in (b.) about pistol grips and such. (v) is the "grandfathered" or "preban" exception. (iii) is the "sporting" exception. If it holds 5 or less rounds, it is a sporting arm as far as these laws are concerned - and cannot be considered an assault weapon.

 

Therefore, if you got a magwell for your Saiga, and modified only 5rd magazines to work with it - then you'd have a shotgun which cannot accept magazines over 5rds - that would satisfy exception (e) and override provision (b.), and you could therefore convert and put whatever the hell stock and pistol grip you want on it. This is a loophole that most don't like to get near with modified guns, but for example, I've seen Gander Mountain in New York carry a Benelli M4 with a pistol grip and collapsing stock - because it only holds 5 in the tube.. but if it only holds 5 rounds or less (rifle or shotgun, actually), it won't be an assault weapon - period.

 

But no one who owns a Saiga wants to stick with 5rds. So that is probably irrelevant.

 

Disclaimer: This is not legal advice.

Edited October 16, 2010 by Michael Graffam

[Nailbomb 10,221]

I have 2 S-12s that I've moved the trigger group foward on. I used a bulgarian surplus thumbhole stock.

[XXasdf 29]

I also went with the thumbhole stock and its not a bad compromise. Do be cautious of where you take the thing though. If you do stay with the factory setup just add a US made HG for 922 compliance if you plan on using US made magazines(10 or lower).

[mgconnor13 206]

NYS laws suck (so do their taxes). Hence I'm never moving back there. I'd be very careful!! I just avoided the issue while I was in NY just to be safe. Hate to say but move to a free state if you want to have any fun.

[Kliegl 304]

A comment on that Gander Mtn Benelli M4. The M4 is a fun gun since it has to have a fake mag extension to get the barrel to screw on.

It's only a quick jump to a Benelli factory mag extension and the same spring and spring stop piece works. 3 min and a pair of needlenoses,

and you're back to "factory"

 

A friend of mine (cough) put the extension on the M4, and is pretty happy with leaving it unmodded from there on out. Hard to argue

with a 12 gauge that will take any and every power round 2 and 3/4 to 3 in without any sort of adjustment, and hold 9 if you load it right.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

NYS laws suck (so do their taxes). Hence I'm never moving back there. I'd be very careful!! I just avoided the issue while I was in NY just to be safe. Hate to say but move to a free state if you want to have any fun.

 

That's what I did!

 

..........well, not for the gun laws, specifically. But the lax laws down here in the South are a huge plus.

[XXasdf 29]

I wish there was some clarification about drum mags on the S12 in NY. I've seen a few promag minis with 10rd cap that would go nice with a factory stock. I wonder if the drums are considered a magazine or more akin to the striker/street sweeper's rotary feeding system. As far as moving out from here I actually moved here from a free state so go figure .

[Kliegl 304]

Well, they are a magazine, and not a rotating firing cylinder.

 

But, whoever made the law is probably ignorant of the difference.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

Also note, that "revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12" are illegal in NY. I believe that would also cover the Saiga drums, though no one likes to talk about that.

 

I disagree on this part.

 

The revolving cylinder operation of those other 12ga's isn't the same as putting a drum into an S12. In other words, a 10 round drum for an S12 would be legal in NY....IMO.

 

This isn't legal advice. Just my opinion.

[mikegraffam 11]

Also note, that "revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12" are illegal in NY. I believe that would also cover the Saiga drums, though no one likes to talk about that.

 

I disagree on this part.

 

The revolving cylinder operation of those other 12ga's isn't the same as putting a drum into an S12. In other words, a 10 round drum for an S12 would be legal in NY....IMO.

 

This isn't legal advice. Just my opinion.

 

I'm inclined to agree that the intent of the law was not to ban rotary mags like the Saiga drum. However, the law as stated is pretty clear - revolving cylinders and shotguns don't mix. I understand that the cylinder system of the Street Sweeper is more akin to a revolver handgun and at the time the law was passed, Saiga drums didn't exist, and that there some doubt about the spirit, or intention of the law in that regard. However, in litigation, the spirit of the law is essentially not relevant. What is relevant is what the law says, and more specifically - what can be successfully ARGUED in court.

 

It is obvious that the Saiga drum uses a revolving cylinder in its operation. It is obvious that it holds shotgun rounds. It is, therefore, arguable that the S12 drum is not legal according to the '94 AWB.

 

The counter-argument, that you are offering, hinges on the "similarity" between the S12 drum and the Street Sweeper method. You'd need to argue that the two systems are sufficiently dissimilar so that the law does not apply. That difference would be in how they are (re)loaded, and how the round is chambered in the gun.. neither of which is particularly relevant to the rotary nature of the device. You'd need a judge who reads "such as" in the text as indicative of the operation of the banned device. That would be hard to do, since the first phrase is "revolving cylinder" - that is the important part. The examples of the Street Sweeper and the Striker 12 are just that - examples. Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder operation is covered by that law, IMO.

 

In any event, such details would need to be litigated for full clarification. A buddy of mine is a NYS trooper, shooting enthusiast, and is very familiar with the law. He would arrest someone in NY with a drum on their Saiga.

 

Now. Lets say you have a drum on your S12 in NY, and my buddy throws ya in the clink for it. You get yourself a fancy attorney who does manage to successfully argue before NY courts that they are dissimilar, and the S12 drums are not covered by the NY law. Your lawyer points out the differences in reloading and chambering between the two systems to make his point. What would happen?

 

The legislators in this state would perk up and say "Hmm. Here is this crazy shotgun, that has nearly the same capacity as the banned guns, has a higher rate of fire and can be reloaded faster but we don't have a law to restrict it. Hey guys! I got a great idea for a new law!"

 

I live in NY, but I don't own property here. When it comes time for me to buy some land - it will be in Vermont, I think. No silencers there (its a $25 misdemeanor , but I can have anything else; no permits for handguns, with real forests, and real autumn weather .. thats my paradise. Just gotta move there, make friends, and lobby to get that stupid silencer law taken off the books.

[mikegraffam 11]

Well, they are a magazine, and not a rotating firing cylinder.

 

But, whoever made the law is probably ignorant of the difference.

 

Worse. The law doesn't specify "rotating firing cylinder." It specifies a "revolving cylinder shotgun" - the drum is a revolving cylinder. The Saiga is a shotgun. Add it up.

 

You tread on VERY thin ice if putting one on your S12 in NY. As I said in another post, I know a LEO who would arrest for it. Would you get convicted? Who knows. Do you really want to go through the hassle for 10rds in drum, rather than stick fashion? Are you prepared to give up your gun and voting rights if convicted of this felony?

 

I sure as hell ain't.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

Also note, that "revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12" are illegal in NY. I believe that would also cover the Saiga drums, though no one likes to talk about that.

 

I disagree on this part.

 

The revolving cylinder operation of those other 12ga's isn't the same as putting a drum into an S12. In other words, a 10 round drum for an S12 would be legal in NY....IMO.

 

This isn't legal advice. Just my opinion.

 

I'm inclined to agree that the intent of the law was not to ban rotary mags like the Saiga drum. However, the law as stated is pretty clear - revolving cylinders and shotguns don't mix. I understand that the cylinder system of the Street Sweeper is more akin to a revolver handgun and at the time the law was passed, Saiga drums didn't exist, and that there some doubt about the spirit, or intention of the law in that regard. However, in litigation, the spirit of the law is essentially not relevant. What is relevant is what the law says, and more specifically - what can be successfully ARGUED in court.

 

It is obvious that the Saiga drum uses a revolving cylinder in its operation. It is obvious that it holds shotgun rounds. It is, therefore, arguable that the S12 drum is not legal according to the '94 AWB.

 

The counter-argument, that you are offering, hinges on the "similarity" between the S12 drum and the Street Sweeper method. You'd need to argue that the two systems are sufficiently dissimilar so that the law does not apply. That difference would be in how they are (re)loaded, and how the round is chambered in the gun.. neither of which is particularly relevant to the rotary nature of the device. You'd need a judge who reads "such as" in the text as indicative of the operation of the banned device. That would be hard to do, since the first phrase is "revolving cylinder" - that is the important part. The examples of the Street Sweeper and the Striker 12 are just that - examples. Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder operation is covered by that law, IMO.

 

In any event, such details would need to be litigated for full clarification. A buddy of mine is a NYS trooper, shooting enthusiast, and is very familiar with the law. He would arrest someone in NY with a drum on their Saiga.

 

Now. Lets say you have a drum on your S12 in NY, and my buddy throws ya in the clink for it. You get yourself a fancy attorney who does manage to successfully argue before NY courts that they are dissimilar, and the S12 drums are not covered by the NY law. Your lawyer points out the differences in reloading and chambering between the two systems to make his point. What would happen?

 

The legislators in this state would perk up and say "Hmm. Here is this crazy shotgun, that has nearly the same capacity as the banned guns, has a higher rate of fire and can be reloaded faster but we don't have a law to restrict it. Hey guys! I got a great idea for a new law!"

 

I live in NY, but I don't own property here. When it comes time for me to buy some land - it will be in Vermont, I think. No silencers there (its a $25 misdemeanor , but I can have anything else; no permits for handguns, with real forests, and real autumn weather .. thats my paradise. Just gotta move there, make friends, and lobby to get that stupid silencer law taken off the books.

 

I get what you're saying. But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

In either case, only the end user is going to make the decision of whether or not to rock a 10 round drum in NY when they come out.

 

I'm just glad to be out of that state and away from it's ridiculous gun laws, and living in the freedom of the south.

[mikegraffam 11]

 

I get what you're saying. But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

In either case, only the end user is going to make the decision of whether or not to rock a 10 round drum in NY when they come out.

 

I'm just glad to be out of that state and away from it's ridiculous gun laws, and living in the freedom of the south.

 

Yeah, I do agree that it is up to the end user, because I'm pretty sure that fine point will be lost on resellers and they'll ship here. I think the Promag 10rd drums already can be shipped here.

 

It's sorta like 922r. We all know the law. It is clearly illegal to put a US-made mag in a factory Saiga. Chances are good no one will ever get busted for that. That is an obscure piece of federal legislation that many abide by just to be safe. Your state and local cops won't know that law. They will know your state AWB laws though.

 

I just think its good for NYers and other people in other AWB states to realize that it isn't cut and dry.

 

Of course .. ahem.. if a certain someone would start selling double stack mags, us NYer's could get nice 10rd compact mags and not need these blasted drums. Just sayin'.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

I just think its good for NYers and other people in other AWB states to realize that it isn't cut and dry.

 

That's the one thing I really hated about NY's AWB. How some parts of it were very "grey". You've got all these NY gun owning residents, most of which would gladly follow the law, no matter how ridiculous it is.......but they can't, because of some of the ambiguous wording.

 

Well, eventhough I'm not in NY anymore, I still keep up with the NY Hometown subforum on Arfcom. There's talk about Heller II, and if everything goes well, it could mean great things for gun owners in NY. Fingers crossed.

[mikegraffam 11]

 

Well, eventhough I'm not in NY anymore, I still keep up with the NY Hometown subforum on Arfcom. There's talk about Heller II, and if everything goes well, it could mean great things for gun owners in NY. Fingers crossed.

 

Yeah, that would be nice. I wouldn't keep my hopes up though. The Heller vs. DC judgement upheld the 2nd Amendment within federal jurisdiction. It is McDonald vs. Chicago that extends the judgement to prevent states from infringing Constitutional rights.

 

Thats the good news.

 

The bad news is that even post-McDonald, it is as difficult as ever to get a gun in Chicago. The ruling does nothing to prevent a state or local municipality from enacting whatever crap they like -- they can pile up the red tape to the point of impossibility -- which is exactly what Chicago has done after the verdict.

 

The really demented part about all this, is that sooner or later, that is going to have to be brought up. When that happens, the Supreme Court can act one of two ways:

 

a.) Strike down local laws and protect the Constitution, while simultaneously (by definition) weakening state and local rights to pass laws.

 

b.) Allow local laws to trump the Constitution.

 

Its a no-win situation for us. In the event of (a.), the ruling will be used to strengthen the Federal government and weaken the states. In the event of (b.), it basically nullifies the Bill of Rights.

 

The '94 AWB - on the face of it - isn't an "infringement" of the 2nd Amendment, it is a "restriction." The point isn't just academic. The 1st Amendment doesn't protect your right to incite a riot with your words. We restrict that.. and I believe rightly so. We restrict the availability of full-auto firearms, explosives, and so on. The '94 AWB restricted semi-autos. I happen to disagree with those later restrictions, but I'd much rather live in a republic of strong states, where if NY sucks and passes a bunch of restrictions I don't like, I am free to move to Vermont.

 

If the ruling goes towards (a.) - well, then we are left with just the Federal government to protect our rights. I think history, both American and otherwise, shows why that is a bad idea.

 

The anti-gun groups don't make me angry. They are just ignorant. What makes me angry is that somehow we've contorted ourselves as a society into a position where our freedoms are pitted against one another and we're sure to lose something.. nearly every damn day. If the Republifools win office, they salivate over how to take away my woman's right to an abortion. If the Democraps win, they start jonesing to take my guns. Not so long ago you couldn't turn on the "news" without hearing about how the terrorists hate our freedoms. Thats ironic to me. Because as far as I can tell, its US that hate our freedoms. Why the hell else would we piss them away so.. er.. freely?

 

I would like to exercise my 1st Amendment right with a snide remark at this point about how this is why we have the 2nd Amendment in the first place and we ought to rebel or some such. But that would violate the Smith Act (18 U.S.C. 2385).

 

Edited October 17, 2010 by Michael Graffam

[Kliegl 304]

Well, they are a magazine, and not a rotating firing cylinder.

 

But, whoever made the law is probably ignorant of the difference.

 

Worse. The law doesn't specify "rotating firing cylinder." It specifies a "revolving cylinder shotgun" - the drum is a revolving cylinder. The Saiga is a shotgun. Add it up.

 

You tread on VERY thin ice if putting one on your S12 in NY. As I said in another post, I know a LEO who would arrest for it. Would you get convicted? Who knows. Do you really want to go through the hassle for 10rds in drum, rather than stick fashion? Are you prepared to give up your gun and voting rights if convicted of this felony?

 

I sure as hell ain't.

 

Nope. You are letting your legaleese get in the way of your engineering. The drum is NOT a revolving cylinder. No part of the drum revolves. (Revolving meaning having

repeatable ad infinitum circular motion.) The only part of the drum that has circular motion is the magazine follower, and it is not cylindrical. Therefore, by definition,

a drum mag is not a revolving cylinder. Secondly, one needs to look at the wording of the law. The law says akin to a street sweeper as an example, which is a revolving

cylinder, a la revolver, shotgun.

 

The law is pretty clear, once you recognize its limits.

 

I shoot a 20 round drum in my Saiga 12, and I don't live in a state where I have to choose between following stupid laws made by cowardly liberals and not being true to myself,

breaking the laws and having moral superiority but being at risk of arrest, or leaving a state that is a shame to the Constitution for the USA.

 

I'd suggest you move if you want to stay into guns.

[mgconnor13 206]

"Rotating drum".. it's that shoulder thing that spins kinda like a "barrel shroud" is a shoulder thing that goes up right?

 

Politicians are retards. Don't get arrested because those ivory tower retards are too dumb to understand the technicalities of their own laws.

Edited October 18, 2010 by Rusty truck

[mikegraffam 11]

 

Nope. You are letting your legaleese get in the way of your engineering. The drum is NOT a revolving cylinder. No part of the drum revolves. (Revolving meaning having

repeatable ad infinitum circular motion.) The only part of the drum that has circular motion is the magazine follower, and it is not cylindrical. Therefore, by definition,

a drum mag is not a revolving cylinder. Secondly, one needs to look at the wording of the law. The law says akin to a street sweeper as an example, which is a revolving

cylinder, a la revolver, shotgun.

 

The law is pretty clear, once you recognize its limits.

 

I shoot a 20 round drum in my Saiga 12, and I don't live in a state where I have to choose between following stupid laws made by cowardly liberals and not being true to myself,

breaking the laws and having moral superiority but being at risk of arrest, or leaving a state that is a shame to the Constitution for the USA.

 

I'd suggest you move if you want to stay into guns.

 

Hmm. I've never handled a Saiga drum, so I'm not in a position to refute this - I can only go by what I've seen in videos.. which appeared to me to show a rotating cylinder. The technical difference you cite between a revolving cylinder, and a rotating cylinder may in fact be enough of a difference to prevent successful prosecution.

 

It is a point that maybe well be lost on some (most?) LEOs though, so you still stand a chance of getting arrested for it in NY. On that basis alone, I won't own one. I have more important things to do than deal with an arrest over possession of a circular shaped mag vs. a box.

 

Now, to you're point about gun owners should leave places like NY. That is actually a pretty bad idea. If anything, what the country needs is for you all in free States to get your butts on out to NY and CA, become registered voters and get this stuff fixed. Really.

 

NY State is like night and day. You have the hippie, liberal whiners way south in New York City and surrounding areas. Once you get a few hours up north, you get into more conservative farm country. Trouble is, NYC is so densely populated, that the southern area of the state out votes the rest of us time and time again.

 

On a larger country-wide scale, New York State and California - through the damn electoral college - manage to pull off the same BS.

 

If all us gun owners left NY and CA and let the anti-gunners vote through whatever crappy laws they want in these states completely uncontested, you'd see that stuff getting dumped on the rest of the country soon after. CA had an AWB before the '94 Federal Ban.. and guess where the Brady Campaign is run out of?

 

Frankly, the AWB states are the front line in the fight, guys. If you're serious about getting this stuff fixed - donate to pro-gun causes and candidates in these states. Freedom was never kept by retreating. Get the laws changed here, and the laws are safer everywhere.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

Now, to you're point about gun owners should leave places like NY. That is actually a pretty bad idea. If anything, what the country needs is for you all in free States to get your butts on out to NY and CA, become registered voters and get this stuff fixed. Really.

 

Unfortunately, there's a plethora of reasons for some people to leave NY. Gun laws being one of many. Last I heard on some research data, was that NY was one of the top states for having the most residents leave the state.

[mgconnor13 206]

NY is expected to loose seats in the house of Reps. once the censuses is completed. They are taxing people right out of the state, combine that with the lack of jobs and all the wacky laws and there just isn't much reason for people to stay. I moved to NC because of work and have no intention of moving back.

 

I get tired of having to explain I'm from NY not NYC ever where I go. Every one assumes your from the city like that's the only thing in the state. I'm so tired of all the gansta from down state that come north and bring the crime with them. Town I grew up had a State max facility on the edge of town. Most of the people in prison where from Rochester/Buffalo or down state. The gov ghetto housing across the street was filled will the relatives of all the convicts doing their time.

 

The major cities are sucking the life out of the rest of the state. People keep leaving and eventually the cities won't have any one to freeload off of and the whole thing is going to fall apart.

 

Sorry you can convert your gun man. You'd be a whole lot better in the back woods of PA

Edited October 18, 2010 by Rusty truck

[VanKiller 322]

I just caught up on this thread.

And thought I'd throw something in here, just for what it's worth, and maybe help someone out someday.

 

I believe at the time the law was written, and the rotating cylinder description was included, the Street Sweeper was the target of the law.

The USAS was in production at the time and it used the same type of magazine as MD adapted to the Saiga.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

NY is expected to loose seats in the house of Reps. once the censuses is completed. They are taxing people right out of the state, combine that with the lack of jobs and all the wacky laws and there just isn't much reason for people to stay. I moved to NC because of work and have no intention of moving back.

 

I get tired of having to explain I'm from NY not NYC ever where I go. Every one assumes your from the city like that's the only thing in the state. I'm so tired of all the gansta from down state that come north and bring the crime with them. Town I grew up had a State max facility on the edge of town. Most of the people in prison where from Rochester/Buffalo or down state. The gov ghetto housing across the street was filled will the relatives of all the convicts doing their time.

 

The major cities are sucking the life out of the rest of the state. People keep leaving and eventually the cities won't have any one to freeload off of and the whole thing is going to fall apart.

 

Sorry you can convert your gun man. You'd be a whole lot better in the back woods of PA

 

Yup.

 

Hell, people have been making jokes about NYC becoming it's own state and keeping all the high taxes, etc, down there for awhile now. Leave the rest of the state to be free and clear of the NYC bullshit. Maybe not a bad idea.

 

I hear you on the "Oh, NY? So you're from NYC!" stuff. I used to get it all the time.

[YOT 3,743]

What I'd really like to know is if anyone in NY has ever been charged/prosecuted for a converted S12 that wasn't used during a crime.

[mikegraffam 11]

 

Yup.

 

Hell, people have been making jokes about NYC becoming it's own state and keeping all the high taxes, etc, down there for awhile now. Leave the rest of the state to be free and clear of the NYC bullshit. Maybe not a bad idea.

 

I hear you on the "Oh, NY? So you're from NYC!" stuff. I used to get it all the time.

 

Oh man. I wish they would. Take NYC all the way up to Albany and make it its own state. I think I would cry w/ joy.

[mikegraffam 11]

What I'd really like to know is if anyone in NY has ever been charged/prosecuted for a converted S12 that wasn't used during a crime.

 

Probably not a Saiga specifically.

 

But I have heard of dumb asses that have brought AW's to local ranges like it was no big deal.. only to have some off-duty LEO be there at the same time and get hauled in.

 

Hell, there is an on-going thread right now over on the M14 forum - some poor guy got booted from a range by the RO (who threatened to call the cops) for having a FAKE selector switch. He even broke the gun down to show him that it was fake and didn't connect to the action at all.. thats actually a totally legal mod - no where near grey area and he ended up getting static for it.

 

The Saiga attracts a lot of attention because it is just so damn bad-ass. Dumping a 10rd box mag at the range gets me looks. I don't need to headache of having someone stick their snout all in my business and give me a hard time over something stupid like a drum mag or some such.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

What I'd really like to know is if anyone in NY has ever been charged/prosecuted for a converted S12 that wasn't used during a crime.

 

Like MG said.......probably not. Just like how no ones ever been charged with a 922r violation as a standalone charge, that I know of.