number 4 shot = better reliability?

[Prometheus 7]

Ok here is the deal. My S12 has a very hard time shooting the lighter loads. i.e. #8 shot is fails to eject 75% of the time. #7 shot maybe half the time. With #6 shot, it is 35% chance of FTE on the first few rounds and the last 6 rounds out of a 10 round AGP are 100%.... I am guessing that the decreased tension on the shotshell pushing on the bolt makes the extraction process easier.

 

So, one would think that #4 shot would probably give me even better reliability... correct?

 

I am asking because I can't find #4 locally and would need to buy it online. I'd hate to order a case of it only to find the same reliability and less pellets. I love to shoot trap with my s-12 and more pellets (to a point) means an easier time hitting my clays. With 6 shot I usually go 10 for 10 using the "crappy iron sights".

 

FWIW I do have a gasfixr plug (the 3 slot version from 2~ years ago). Prior to that, it would only cycle buck shot and slugs reliably. 3 hole ports.

 

As an aside, anyone ever shoot clays with #4 shot? lol

Edited November 6, 2010 by Prometheus

[Jdhonda810 29]

I've shot clays with 4 b4, hahaha. Have you done the gas port mod to your gun? That will improve the reliability and cycling by about 80%.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Ok here is the deal. My S12 has a very hard time shooting the lighter loads. i.e. #8 shot is fails to eject 75% of the time. #7 shot maybe half the time. With #6 shot, it is 35% on the first few rounds and the last 6 rounds out of a 10 round AGP are 100%.... I am guessing that the decreased tension on the shotshell pushing on the bolt makes the extraction process easier.

 

So, one would think that #4 shot would probably give me even better reliability... correct?

 

I am asking because I can't find #4 locally and would need to buy it online. I'd hate to order a case of it only to find the same reliability and less pellets. I love to shoot trap with my s-12 and more pellets (to a point) means an easier time hitting my clays. With 6 shot I usually go 10 for 10 using the "crappy iron sights".

 

FWIW I do have a gasfixr plug (the 3 slot version from 2~ years ago). Prior to that, it would only cycle buck shot and slugs reliably. 3 hole ports.

 

As an aside, anyone ever shoot clays with #4 shot? lol

 

Bearing in mind that not everyone wants a tuned up gun, it has more to do with gas volume and pressure than shot size. Try a box of Estate heavy game loads in #6 shot, and see if that works for you. If not, move to ammo with a progressively higher FPS rating. I'm guessing something north of 1350 FPS is the magic number for you. Also stay with loads 1 1/8 oz. and higher. More payload mass = higher gas pressure in the barrel.

[Prometheus 7]

Bearing in mind that not everyone wants a tuned up gun, it has more to do with gas volume and pressure than shot size. Try a box of Estate heavy game loads in #6 shot, and see if that works for you. If not, move to ammo with a progressively higher FPS rating. I'm guessing something north of 1350 FPS is the magic number for you. Also stay with loads 1 1/8 oz. and higher. More payload mass = higher gas pressure in the barrel.

 

I would rather not go nuts on modifying my gun beyond what I have to restore it to it's factory condition. It's a combat shotgun to me and shooting trap is secondary. An occasional FTE is no big deal to me if it's related to an underpowered load.

 

The 6 shot I've been using is 1350 FPS (winchester super speed) and a 1oz load.

 

The #4 I'm looking at is 3 1/4 dram eq and 1 1/8oz at 1200 fps.

 

No I have not done a gas port mod. I'll look into it. I hadn't considered it. I thought about a lighter recoil spring at ~$10 as an easy fix, but again, it's a combat shotgun to me so....

[Jdhonda810 29]

Bearing in mind that not everyone wants a tuned up gun, it has more to do with gas volume and pressure than shot size. Try a box of Estate heavy game loads in #6 shot, and see if that works for you. If not, move to ammo with a progressively higher FPS rating. I'm guessing something north of 1350 FPS is the magic number for you. Also stay with loads 1 1/8 oz. and higher. More payload mass = higher gas pressure in the barrel.

 

I would rather not go nuts on modifying my gun beyond what I have to restore it to it's factory condition. It's a combat shotgun to me and shooting trap is secondary. An occasional FTE is no big deal to me if it's related to an underpowered load.

 

The 6 shot I've been using is 1350 FPS (winchester super speed) and a 1oz load.

 

The #4 I'm looking at is 3 1/4 dram eq and 1 1/8oz at 1200 fps.

 

No I have not done a gas port mod. I'll look into it. I hadn't considered it. I thought about a lighter recoil spring at ~$10 as an easy fix, but again, it's a combat shotgun to me so....

 

I had an S12 for about 2 years before I decided to mod my gas ports. I honestly got tired of (so did my wallet) and always buying $12 a box or more exensive high brass shot shells, even though that is what it is made for. You keep referring to it as a "combat shotgun" which IT IS, but are you going to use it in combat? haha, i doubt u are, but if so that's even more reason to do the mod and make it more reliable, haha. B4 i modded it, i found that Remington 2 3/4" High brass #4 made for waterfoul, was a great round hat cycled every single time (that's the $12 a box stuff i referred to). Eventually you'll want to be abl to go out and impess the guys who have never even heard of a Saiga 12 and dump (20) 12 guage shotgun shell rounds faster than they can load their remington 870 or mossy500 and not have to put a dent in your wallet doing so if you have modded the ports.

[Jager 1]

One of my Saigas was a stock gun when I bought it. I read Tromix' recommendation of Winchester Super Sport loads. They are 1300 fps, 1 1/8 ounce, 8 shot, and $7.57 per 25 round box at WalMart. These have always run without issue in my stock gun before and after restoration. They also run without issue in my 8 inch RedStick SBS.

[Paulyski 2,227]

First check your gas port size with this method.

 

Then if you need to enlarge them, add a port, or clear a section of block due to it obstructing, & you lack a press, or an air-hammer, try this method for drifting the gas block.

 

Be sure to scribe reference marks before drifting the block.

 

The ports should be either 3 @ .093, or 4 @ 5/64 for a 19" barrel. More volume is needed for a shorter barrel, less for a longer barrel.

 

When you drift your gas block, you'll see a shadowed area wher your gas block opening was.

You can judge at that time whether you'd like to enlarge with a drill bit or milling bit, or add another port.

Be sure to keep the angles correct.

They're angled so they don't have a "cheese grater" effect & shave off led or wadding as the load passes down the barrel.

 

I use a drill press, as it's easier to maintain controll, but others have made due with a hand drill & a steady hand.

 

 

 

 

If your gun won't run somewhat light loads on setting 2, it'll be undergassed to an extent with heavier loads too.

 

If you'd like to tune it further, try the polishing & friction reducing methods found in this thread.

 

If you feel it's a combat shotgun, during peacetime, you should make it run everything you can. If the SHTF & you have no buckshot left, a shotgun with #6 federal target loads still beats the shit out of a baseball bat or a switchblade.

 

Not to mention, if you ever have to put food on the table with it.

Edited November 6, 2010 by Paulyski

[mikegraffam 11]

Bearing in mind that not everyone wants a tuned up gun, it has more to do with gas volume and pressure than shot size. Try a box of Estate heavy game loads in #6 shot, and see if that works for you. If not, move to ammo with a progressively higher FPS rating. I'm guessing something north of 1350 FPS is the magic number for you. Also stay with loads 1 1/8 oz. and higher. More payload mass = higher gas pressure in the barrel.

 

I would rather not go nuts on modifying my gun beyond what I have to restore it to it's factory condition. It's a combat shotgun to me and shooting trap is secondary. An occasional FTE is no big deal to me if it's related to an underpowered load.

 

The 6 shot I've been using is 1350 FPS (winchester super speed) and a 1oz load.

 

The #4 I'm looking at is 3 1/4 dram eq and 1 1/8oz at 1200 fps.

 

No I have not done a gas port mod. I'll look into it. I hadn't considered it. I thought about a lighter recoil spring at ~$10 as an easy fix, but again, it's a combat shotgun to me so....

 

I hear what you're saying about not wanting to mod the gun all that much.. but I have to say, tuning up my S12 was the best thing I could have done. She will eat nearly anything now.. all the way down to crappy winchester universal. Maybe 2 out of 100 of those things don't cycle my gun; which I chalk up to being extra light. The rest of the time, it will keep a stream of shells in the air.

 

On top of that, but I get better patterns and groups with buck and slugs now, as well.

 

You may not need to touch the gas system; I didn't. Start with polishing up the action. That alone may reduce the friction and get those lighter loads cycling for you. All it took for me was some 200 and 400 grit sandpaper and some elbow grease to get it to cycle fine.

[Prometheus 7]

Then if you need to enlarge them, add a port, or clear a section of block due to it obstructing, & you lack a press, or an air-hammer, try this method for drifting the gas block.

From the pictures in that thread it appears my gas block needs the "D" modification. I can only see one hole and just a smidge of another. The third isn't visible.

 

I stuck a bent paperclip into the three holes and it went thru all three with a slight bit of play. The paper clip is of a small size 1" by 1/4" wide before bending it. I don't have calipers but if I had to guess from my ruler, I'd say it's got a diameter of 1mm.

 

I'm guessing from reading all of what you provided, by modifying the gas block into a "D" I will fix my problem... although, I seem to have poked some crap thru it, so maybe my ports were somewhat gunked up...

If you feel it's a combat shotgun, during peacetime, you should make it run everything you can. If the SHTF & you have no buckshot left, a shotgun with #6 federal target loads still beats the shit out of a baseball bat or a switchblade.

 

Not to mention, if you ever have to put food on the table with it.

Excellent points, you are correct.

 

Thank you for the extremely detailed response!

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Bearing in mind that not everyone wants a tuned up gun, it has more to do with gas volume and pressure than shot size. Try a box of Estate heavy game loads in #6 shot, and see if that works for you. If not, move to ammo with a progressively higher FPS rating. I'm guessing something north of 1350 FPS is the magic number for you. Also stay with loads 1 1/8 oz. and higher. More payload mass = higher gas pressure in the barrel.

 

I would rather not go nuts on modifying my gun beyond what I have to restore it to it's factory condition. It's a combat shotgun to me and shooting trap is secondary. An occasional FTE is no big deal to me if it's related to an underpowered load.

 

The 6 shot I've been using is 1350 FPS (winchester super speed) and a 1oz load.

 

The #4 I'm looking at is 3 1/4 dram eq and 1 1/8oz at 1200 fps.

 

No I have not done a gas port mod. I'll look into it. I hadn't considered it. I thought about a lighter recoil spring at ~$10 as an easy fix, but again, it's a combat shotgun to me so....

 

Winchester "super speed" - isn't. I have found it to be consistently poor quality, and I don't believe it's FPS rating is reflective of actual performance. Estate is around the same price. Its a little dirty - but packs enough wallop to cycle the action on many stock (off the shelf guns). Last time I purchased it, I think I paid between $6 and $7 a box of 25.

 

Good luck, and good shooting!

 

Mike

[Prometheus 7]

Winchester "super speed" - isn't. I have found it to be consistently poor quality, and I don't believe it's FPS rating is reflective of actual performance. Estate is around the same price. Its a little dirty - but packs enough wallop to cycle the action on many stock (off the shelf guns). Last time I purchased it, I think I paid between $6 and $7 a box of 25.

 

Good luck, and good shooting!

 

Mike

Thank you, how about the other winchester loads such as Super-X heavy game loads I was refering to above in the #4 shot. The reason why I ask is finding them inexpensively enough. Right now they are on sale at Cabelas.com for $54.99 (per 10 box case) and I live close enough to the store to pick them up so no shipping charges, add to that a loyalty coupon for $30 off a purchase of $150 or more and that makes them $45.99 per 250 rounds (prior to tax). I can't find estate smaller than 6 shot in any of bulk packs and even then it's 10$ more per case, both have the same discount right now. $15 isn't too much and I'd get the estate with your recommendation if they had #4.

 

Thanks again, I'll probably be shooting it again before I modify the block and see if I kicked any crud out of the port hole with the paper clip, I feel like I dislodged some stuff but I wasn't looking down the barrel when I did... stupid move, read all instructions and posts first, lol.

 

edit to fix the price, 54.99 on sale and then 44.99 with my coupon, but I'd have to buy 3 cases to use the coupon.

Edited November 6, 2010 by Prometheus

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Winchester "super speed" - isn't. I have found it to be consistently poor quality, and I don't believe it's FPS rating is reflective of actual performance. Estate is around the same price. Its a little dirty - but packs enough wallop to cycle the action on many stock (off the shelf guns). Last time I purchased it, I think I paid between $6 and $7 a box of 25.

 

Good luck, and good shooting!

 

Mike

Thank you, how about the other winchester loads such as Super-X heavy game loads I was refering to above in the #4 shot. The reason why I ask is finding them inexpensively enough. Right now they are on sale at Cabelas.com for $59.99 (per 10 box case) and I live close enough to the store to pick them up so no shipping charges, add to that a loyalty coupon for $30 off a purchase of $150 or more and that makes them $49.99 per 250 rounds (prior to tax). I can't find estate smaller than 6 shot in any of bulk packs and even then it's 10$ more per case, both have the same discount right now. $10 isn't much and I'd get the estate with your recommendation if they had #4.

 

Thanks again, I'll probably be shooting it again before I modify the block and see if I kicked any crud out of the port hole with the paper clip, I feel like I dislodged some stuff but I wasn't looking down the barrel when I did... stupid move, read all instructions and posts first, lol.

 

At $6 a box, it's certainly worth a try. And, you bring up a very good point. Whether you are a talented and intrepid DIYer like Paul, or you have a professional do the work, if you shoot a great deal, a properly tuned S12 will pay for itself (through improved reliability and lower ammo costs) with dividends in relatively short order.

 

Best regards,

 

Mike

[Prometheus 7]

At $6 a box, it's certainly worth a try. And, you bring up a very good point. Whether you are a talented and intrepid DIYer like Paul, or you have a professional do the work, if you shoot a great deal, a properly tuned S12 will pay for itself (through improved reliability and lower ammo costs) with dividends in relatively short order.

 

Best regards,

 

Mike

 

Before this forum, all the help, encouragement and walkthrus, I wouldn't have never have tried it. Since restoring my S12, I think the gas block "D" fix will be pretty easy.

 

I did just buy the winchester heavy game load #4 shells from cabelas. I have to pick them up instore, but after my coupon they were $48.30 for a 250rd case and i applied some old cabelas points dropping the price per case down to $43.97 per 250 rounds. I drive within 250 yards of the store a few days a week so no inconvenience there

 

I'll give the estates a try eventually though. I just couldn't pass up that deal. Worse case, I can use them in my other scattergun.

Edited November 6, 2010 by Prometheus

[msrdiver 42]

While there pick up a box of ESTATE 4 Buck. These shells are heavy loads that have 27 pellets. The buck shot patterns nicely between 25 and 30 feet. Lastly, the 4 buck at 1325fps is going to give enough pressure to cycle your gun. I can't vouch for the OO buck.

[hobbyshooter 59]

My low gassed gun likes Kent 1-1/4oz Fast lead in #5. I can mix mags between this and Remington sluggers on gunfixer setting 2 and run 100%. Ables sells #6 at a good price also.

 

Kent Ultimate Fast Lead Extreme Performance Shotgun Shells K122UFL366, 12 Gauge, 2 3/4", 1350 fps, 1 1/4 oz, 3 3/4 DRAM, Shot Size #6

 

But if you open up your gas ports you can shoot federal 7-1/2 bulk packs at half the price...

[Prometheus 7]

My low gassed gun likes Kent 1-1/4oz Fast lead in #5. I can mix mags between this and Remington sluggers on gunfixer setting 2 and run 100%. Ables sells #6 at a good price also.

 

Kent Ultimate Fast Lead Extreme Performance Shotgun Shells K122UFL366, 12 Gauge, 2 3/4", 1350 fps, 1 1/4 oz, 3 3/4 DRAM, Shot Size #6

 

But if you open up your gas ports you can shoot federal 7-1/2 bulk packs at half the price...

 

I think my port size is fine. The paperclip goes in with some play. Like I said I haven't measured it, but it's got to be close to 1mm wide held up against a ruled, it appears nearly 1mm.

 

I was thinking after I posted about modding the gas block, would it help? I can get the paperclip into all three holes, which would mean the block isn't covering the ports. Hmmm...

 

I don't know if I mentioned it, but it is the 19" barrel.

[Jdhonda810 29]

My low gassed gun likes Kent 1-1/4oz Fast lead in #5. I can mix mags between this and Remington sluggers on gunfixer setting 2 and run 100%. Ables sells #6 at a good price also.

 

Kent Ultimate Fast Lead Extreme Performance Shotgun Shells K122UFL366, 12 Gauge, 2 3/4", 1350 fps, 1 1/4 oz, 3 3/4 DRAM, Shot Size #6

 

But if you open up your gas ports you can shoot federal 7-1/2 bulk packs at half the price...

 

I think my port size is fine. The paperclip goes in with some play. Like I said I haven't measured it, but it's got to be close to 1mm wide held up against a ruled, it appears nearly 1mm.

 

I was thinking after I posted about modding the gas block, would it help? I can get the paperclip into all three holes, which would mean the block isn't covering the ports. Hmmm...

 

I don't know if I mentioned it, but it is the 19" barrel.

 

I have 2 19" S12's also and yes it would help. All it would do is let the proper amount of gas through so that you may cycle nearly everything you feed it for less $. It can be over gassed if you make it the wrong size, hence the 3/32 bit size to use to open them up and plus with the gun fixers plug, you can cut off the gas or let as much as u need to through. It is ultimate reliability at your fingertips.

[washburnizer 8]

I've been having a similar issue with my recently purchased Saiga 12. I have a thread going about it, and have also received excellent advice on this forum. Just reading similar threads for ideas, and ran across this thread. I have a picture of my gas ports, sounds like our guns are similar in that regard. I can only easily see one hole, but can see half of the other two if I look at the right angle. I have been successful running a wire/about the size of weed eater line or a little smaller, through all 3 holes.

 

Here is a pic of mine for comparison:

 

[Prometheus 7]

I've been having a similar issue with my recently purchased Saiga 12. I have a thread going about it, and have also received excellent advice on this forum. Just reading similar threads for ideas, and ran across this thread. I have a picture of my gas ports, sounds like our guns are similar in that regard. I can only easily see one hole, but can see half of the other two if I look at the right angle. I have been successful running a wire/about the size of weed eater line or a little smaller, through all 3 holes.

 

You are much better off than mine. I can only see a tiny bit of the second and none of the third. I'll do the polish and shoot it this weekend and see if I do the block mod after that. I'm still hoping I knocked some crap out of the ports and with the polish that clears it up. <fingers crossed>

[Prometheus 7]

Ok I had a biomed guy at work put calipers on some paperclips for me and I tested them out in my S12, the one that came up .99 went into all three holes. A bit more crap came out of them when I pushed it thru.

 

So I did a bit of polishing in my bolt and trigger/hammer and my reliability is improved. In fact, if you pull the gun in as tight as you can, it will cycle every single round of bird shot. Let it get loose in your shoulder pocket on a 3/4 or fuller mag and it just doesn't have the gas to fully cycle.

 

It would seem I need to break down and modify the gas block. Also I need to work on my bolt a bit more. I need some better (and more) dremmel items for that however.

 

Anyway, This is from today, I did a short review on my S12 and my friend did a good job turning it into a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRhxmKNpXBQ

[Mullet Man 2,114]

There is also a little bit of material that can be removed and cleaned up around the extractor slot (IIRC). Sometimes shells will get hung up on that area on their way out of the breach, slowing the cycling action down. There are a couple threads on here detailing the area, check MDArms forum for one.

EDIT; Here ya go..

 

How do you like the wire folder? Seems like it would beat you up good after a day of shooting. Nice S12 and good work

Edited November 14, 2010 by Mullet Man

[Prometheus 7]

There is also a little bit of material that can be removed and cleaned up around the extractor slot (IIRC). Sometimes shells will get hung up on that area on their way out of the breach, slowing the cycling action down. There are a couple threads on here detailing the area, check MDArms forum for one.

EDIT; Here ya go..

 

How do you like the wire folder? Seems like it would beat you up good after a day of shooting. Nice S12 and good work

 

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out. All of my failures to extract appear to be shortstrokes and not due to the shell exiting.

 

I really like the sidefolder. I'd say recoil is about the same as with the factory stock. Unlike the same stock I have on one of my AK's, the "push" of the shotgun is much easier on the shoulder thank the "sharpness" of the 7.62x39 round. At least that is my take on it. The Chaos break also does a very good job of lowering the felt recoil as well.

 

The most I've fired thru with the sidefolder is a dozen buck's and 75~ #4 shot thru it in one setting. My shoulder feels great afterwards. Much kinder than if I put the same amount of rounds thru a 7.62x39 with the folder if that means anythings.

 

I was planning on replacing it but not now.

 

Getting a decent front grip on the other hand, lol.

 

EDIT: After going back thru my thoughts and a few videos, I think you may very well be correct about the extractor slot issue. Especially in the review video failure. I'll be working on that before taking it out again.

 

THAT is what I love about this forum, you simply cannot find the quality and diagnostic abilities here on this sight anywhere else. Top notch.

Edited November 15, 2010 by Prometheus

[hobbyshooter 59]

In my testing I found the KA puck to improve cycling efficiency.

[Col_Sanders 0]

Is it better to have a faster or heavier shot? I was going to put load there but that just wouldnt look right.

 

Wally World sells some 7 1/2 shot that shoots 1200FPS and has 1 1/8oz of shot and some that is 1350FPS and 1oz of shot. I have tried both of them on setting 1 and had no issues (even rapid fire from the hip) but I'm just curious.

[Prometheus 7]

Is it better to have a faster or heavier shot? I was going to put load there but that just wouldnt look right.

 

Wally World sells some 7 1/2 shot that shoots 1200FPS and has 1 1/8oz of shot and some that is 1350FPS and 1oz of shot. I have tried both of them on setting 1 and had no issues (even rapid fire from the hip) but I'm just curious.

 

From what others have said, the speed rating on the boxes of the wally world bulk packs are... lies. Basically. I'm going to get some files tomorrow and see what working on the ejector port does for me, as well as touching up some of the rails and a bit more smoothing on the trigger.

[hobbyshooter 59]

Is it better to have a faster or heavier shot?

Better for what? Cycling? What kind of shooting are you doing? Clay, steel plates, or cutting up paper targets?

 

Wally World sells some 7 1/2 shot that shoots 1200FPS and has 1 1/8oz of shot and some that is 1350FPS and 1oz of shot. I have tried both of them on setting 1 and had no issues (even rapid fire from the hip) but I'm just curious.

Neither of those are all that good. If your gun shoots it then fine, just run as much of the least expensive of the 2 as you can afford.

[Prometheus 7]

After reading thru some more threads and not wanting to take my internals out again so soon, I turned up some info on the gas plugs being screwed in too deep.

 

With my gasfixr (gunfixr) plug it bottoms out at 1. According to the instructions, it should be good to go by backing it out just the one click for setting 3. Anyway, I'd never thought much about it and when I did, I'd forget to experiment with it.

 

So I took it back out today after doing nothing to it since last weekend. I backed the gasplug out past the three and until it came to three again. It still locks into place solidly and there really aren't any threads showing. FWIW I believe I tried that a year or so ago before the conversion and before doing any internal work, it didn't help then as I recall.

 

My results today were 100% reliability with #6 and #4 bird shot. I fired one box of #8 shot thru it and I had only one malfunction, the round ejected and almost chambered, a tap on the bolt handle fixed the issue. Considering I've got over 300 rounds thru it since the last cleaning, it makes the #8 shot all the more impressive in my book.

 

24 for 25 is 96% reliability and since I never plan on buying #8 shot again and get 100% on #6 shot or better, I am satisfied that my S12 is GTG and I'm done screwing with it.

 

Next time I shoot it, I'll try running some #4 and #6 on setting 2. I had a few loose rounds of #8 in the bottom of my can and they short stroked on gas setting #2.

 

#4 and #6 shot were winchester bulk packs, #8 shot was federal bulk packed stuff.

[TwentyNizzo 66]

For the first time I tried Remington Nitro 7 1/2 shot, 1300 fps. Works 100% in my gun on setting 2 and the shells were being flung FAR. I didn't try them on setting 1 although I will in the future. My gun will not 100% reliably cycle the wal-mart bulk pack stuff which is 7.5 shot @ 1200 fps.