Thinking about becoming a traitor to the Motherland

[BrutalGardener 205]

I've been thinking about adding a .223 "M4" type of carbine to my arsenal for a while. I have handled only a few ARs and shot one just a couple of times. I would like to do a lot of practicing and become as proficient with that weapon platform as I am with the good ole Kalash. Depending on how reliable it's going to be, it could become by new SHTF rifle. What I am interested in getting is the "Saiga" of the AR world, something as close to what the US military uses as possible. Am I correct in my assumption that the closest that I can get is a Colt LE carbine? Thanks.

[corbin 621]

Many of the issues you hear about with ARs are caused by inferior parts being sold out there. You will have to keep an AR more clean than you would an AK, but so long as you're doing your part, the weapon system should do its part.

 

I would say a Colt is going to be the closest to what the military uses. Whatever you get, I'd suggest a barrel and bore that's chrome lined, Magnetic Particle Inspected (MPI marked), High Pressure Tested (HPT marked), that has M4 feed ramps and probably a 1 in 7 twist on the rifling. I would want forged "F marked" front sight bases and an upper with laser engraved T marks, assuming you go with a flat top.

 

Make sure the bolt and carrier are MPI tested too. The carrier key should have two stake marks on each side of the bolt heads that hold it onto the carrier. Make sure they're deep enough to actually hold the bolt from backing out.

 

 

Of the manufacturers out there, I personally like either Colt or Bravo Company USA (BCM). Many of the others don't have the MPI, HPT or better steel in the barrels.

 

 

hope this helps

[TwentyNizzo 66]

Wow, really nice reply there.

 

I have a Busmaster M4A3 carbine which I got very, very lucky and got for $400 from a friend who needed some cash. It had only been shot once, 80 rounds.

 

Anyways, the AR is a great platform, and is extremely reliable. Mine feeds the cheap Russian ammo like nobody's business. My main gripe with the AR is the cleaning that it requires. Detail stripping the bolt and bolt carrier gets extremely messy even after just 1 day of shooting. That's the main reason I prefer the AK.

 

I agree on the recommendation of Colt.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

Get a BCM and never look back. Colt quality (or higher) with a cheaper price tag. Colts have come down in price a little, though. But seriously, do any research, and you'll see that BCM is best bang for your buck, if you're looking for a high quality AR. HIGH quality gear and affordable prices.

 

Look up Pat Rogers' "Filthy 14". Something like 36K rounds through a BCM upper with 1 or 2 cleanings and re-oiling as necessary, and it just laughed and asked for more.

 

 

What I would do.....

 

Get yourself any lower of your choice from any reputable company. If you buy a stripped lower, LPK and stock and assemble the lower yourself, you'll save some money over buying a complete lower. Or just buy a complete lower. Whatever your budget allows. Assembling a stripped lower with an LPK is easy as cake. If you want, I can link to a video that shows how to do it. It's what I used for my first assembly. I'm 3/4 retarded and it came out great.

 

Then just slap a BCM upper (with one of their BCG's) on it and you're good to go. All you'll need is to choose your handguards and BUIS.

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

http://forums.office...uy-an-AR-15-huh

http://spreadsheets....hjFwPrgTA&gid=5

http://www.ar15armor...n-F-t19366.html

http://www.ar15armor...eiver_guide.htm

 

Definitely build your own, do not buy a ready made rifle, you'll just blow more money making it truly yours.

Colt is vastly overrated/overpriced, just say no.

 

My AR has atleast 6K through it, with only one mag related mal.

Keep the bolt/bolt carrier oiled and it will run like a ... Well... Like a well oiled machine.

Even when filthy with powder/carbon fouling.

Edited December 11, 2010 by ChileRelleno

[Casp 119]

+1 to BCM and to assembling your own lower.

 

You definitely want to get the BCM M16 carrier group. The bolt is HP/MP tested, the gas key screws are properly staked, and the bolt is shot-peened (something almost none of the other manufacturers besides Colt do.)

 

Make sure that the buffer tube and buttstock are milspec, NOT commercial spec. Commercial spec buffer tubes are softer extruded aluminum and have undersized threads. Most commercially available buffer tubes (milspec and commercial) have 6 stop positions for the buttstock, but the correct USGI tube only has 4 stops; the ones with 6 stops are like on the Israeli M4 clone. Be sure to stake the receiver end plate into the castle nut; it only takes a minute and one of these. For best reliability, put an H3 buffer in it. For more on why and what happens if you don't, read this starting at the big bold sentence in the middle of the post.

 

BCM also sells complete uppers minus handguards in most stock configurations you can think of. The one you want for closest to USGI M4 is the 14.5" Gov't profile barrel with carbine-length gas system (not midlength) the permanently attached A2X flash hider. The A2X is longer than the standard A2 flash hider to meet minimum length req. Alternatively, for a current generation M4A1, you can get the SOCOM profile barrel instead of the Gov't profile, but it's quite a bit heavier as it's supposed to be used more or less like an RPK (it's awesome but I'm kind of wishing I had got the A1 lightweight profile now... )

 

Also for that real M4 look/feel/smell, make sure you get the oval-profile, double heat shield M4 handguards, not the round, single heat shield CAR-15/GAU-5 handguards. You may be tempted by dark forces to use a SOPMOD RIS forend. Don't! ....only because I hate quadrail systems the way most AK fans hate the AR.

 

For your sights of course you could always get an ACOG or Aimpoint M3 or M4 sight and some folding rear iron, but if you go with the rail-mounted carry handle make sure you get one that is forged, not a cheap-ass cast Chinese one from UTG or the like. You can get a good price on a good handle by looking on eBay and the gun auction sites for Colt M4 carry handles that were brought home from Iraq and Afghanistan. Although on the other hand I had to disassemble the rear sight on mine to get all the sand out of it...

 

Edited for coherency and spelling.

 

Edited December 11, 2010 by Caspian Sea Monster

[mgconnor13 206]

I bought a Stag arms left handed kit for my wife and it runs great, eats every thing I feed it. EOtechs are greats sights and they are parrellex free. Acog is also a really good sight. 1 in 7 twist is good for heavier bullets like m855 ball but if you want you shoot lighter 55grn m193 you'll need to go with a slower twist. I think the A1 was originally 1:12. Chrome lined is the was to go and M4 feed ramps are good to have. You could go totally retro and build an A1, but A2/3 uppers and handguards are more common and it's nice having a rail for optics. For a quad rail free floated is the way to go, there's more options and it it a lot more solid then the 2 pieces clamp on rail the military uses.

[corbin 621]

As a lefty, I considered getting a Stag upper, but I decided the ability to use "regular" parts outweighed the convenience of left side ejection. Also, I wanted to keep it looking more Mil Spec. We'll see if that decision was right or not once I get my M4 configured how I want.

 

I have an old Colt SP1 lower from a rifle my Dad had since I was a kid. He sold the upper years ago, so I decided to make an all Colt M4 with it. Yeah, the lower looks different and has a larger takedown hole in the front, but I can deal with that. It currently has an A2 Colt M4 upper and 16" barrel, though I'd like to change it to an A3 flat top eventually.

 

+1 for the Mil Spec buffer tube. I messed up and got a commercial tube way back when and not only is it a softer material, but finding the right stock for it is a pain, since most of the ones I see at gun shows are set up for the smaller Mil Spec tube. It's since been changed.

[Arik 565]

I betrayed the Motherland too this time last year. Was looking to add an AR to my collection. I ended up buying a used Daniel Defense. 1/7 twist heavy barrel. Was actually as nice rifle. Never cleaned it, shot lots of cheap Russian ammo, no jams of any kind...ever! The rifle was more accurate than I was. At 300 yards I was getting same results as with my MAK90. Center of mass hits but no real grouping (not using bench). So I thought if I'm about the same shot with both rifles I'll stick to my 7.62 AKs. I sold the M4 to finance my Krink.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Arik

[schultze13 354]

If you are going to build your I would recomend Spike's Tactical, Noveske or CMMG for your lower Spike's also has a nice milled lower. I would also check out Noveske barrels they are great but expensive there was a article on them where they tested the 18" (witch I have) and the 12" barrels and they were less than 1" groups at 600 meters for both. Remember mil-spec is around 3" group at 100 yards. Also +1 for the 1/7 twist it is the was to go. 1/9 is what alot of companys sell witch is fine for 55gr but for 62gr steelcore or 75gr match wont stablize at distances. As with anything it depend on what your main use for the weapon is and let that decide what you get or build. One last thing remember you get what you pay for if you buy junk all you will have is junk.

 

Edited December 11, 2010 by SCHULTZE

[Casp 119]

Also +1 for the 1/7 twist it is the was to go. 1/9 is what alot of companys sell witch is fine for 55gr but for 62gr steelcore or 75gr match wont stablize at distances.

 

1:9 in a 20" barrel is fine for 62gr, that's what the M16A2/A4 is and shoots. For a shorter barrel 1:7 is better.

 

Noveske is nice but the barrels are polygonally rifled stainless, so that's a no-go if you want to go totally milspec as in the OP. That's another thing I forgot to mention, the proper milspec barrel for an AR is 4150 chrome-moly-vanadium steel, not 4140 chrome-moly which is what a lot of the middle- to lower-end manufacturers use. Also a lot of companies seem to think that chrome lining is optional and charge you an extra $45 for it.

 

I know Bushmaster's barrels are 4150 chrome-lined but I don't think they are all HP/MP proof tested.

 

One last thing remember you get what you pay for if you buy junk all you will have is junk.

 

+1000

 

By the way, a direct clone of a Colt 971 made from BCM parts as I described up above would run you $900 to $1k. I built mine for just over $1k but I have a few fancy-pants Magpul parts on it.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Caspian Sea Monster

[DrThunder88 912]

I just semi-built my second AR. It is ridiculously easy, especially if you buy it half done! For example, I got a Del-Ton 20" A3-style upper kit, which included everything I needed to finish off the stripped lower. Del-Ton probably uses more civilian parts than some of the other manufacturers mentioned above, but, for the use it's going to see in its lifetime, mil-spec means precious little to me.

[308SAIGA 55]

http://forums.office...uy-an-AR-15-huh

http://spreadsheets....hjFwPrgTA&gid=5

http://www.ar15armor...n-F-t19366.html

http://www.ar15armor...eiver_guide.htm

 

Definitely build your own, do not buy a ready made rifle, you'll just blow more money making it truly yours.

Colt is vastly overrated/overpriced, just say no.

 

My AR has atleast 6K through it, with only one mag related mal.

Keep the bolt/bolt carrier oiled and it will run like a ... Well... Like a well oiled machine.

Even when filthy with powder/carbon fouling.

 

The bold link explains it all, the only thing I would add to it would be a match grade trigger......

[BrutalGardener 205]

OK, so... I can get a brand new Colt LE6920, the one with the A3 top (comes with a carry handle), for $1150 out the door. Am I wrong or is this a hell of a deal and I should just go for it?

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

$1150 out the door... That is a decent deal, if that is what I was shopping for, I'd probably make the purchase.

What comes with the rifle? At least two 20 or 30 round mags? Cleaning kit? Decent hardcase?

 

Though I will say this, try waving ten crisp Franklins under their nose, cash talks and that rifle might just go out the door for a grand even.

 

Time to buy a few dozen or more PMags for and a few cases of ammo

 

And if it were mine, I'd add on...

DD Omega X 12" FSP freefloat rail

Hogue PG

VLTOR EMOD butt stock

Troy BUIS rear sight

MagPul Asap plate

MagPul MS2 sling or a good 2pt sling

Midwest Industries QD HD sling swivels for rail

Streamlight TLR-1 with switch.

[BrutalGardener 205]

$1150 out the door... That is a decent deal, if that is what I was shopping for, I'd probably make the purchase.

What comes with the rifle? At least two 20 or 30 round mags? Cleaning kit? Decent hardcase?

 

Though I will say this, try waving ten crisp Franklins under their nose, cash talks and that rifle might just go out the door for a grand even.

 

Time to buy a few dozen or more PMags for and a few cases of ammo

 

And if it were mine, I'd add on...

DD Omega X 12" FSP freefloat rail

Hogue PG

VLTOR EMOD butt stock

Troy BUIS rear sight

MagPul Asap plate

MagPul MS2 sling or a good 2pt sling

Midwest Industries QD HD sling swivels for rail

Streamlight TLR-1 with switch.

 

Two 20 rds mags, a sling and a cleaning kit, as far as I know. The cheapest I found on the Internet was $1187.00 + shipping + transfer fee. If I paid cash, he said he would give it to me for $1100. By the way, no sales tax here. They have these rifles priced at $1450, so he's giving me a $300 discount. This shop is not exactly known for low prices tho. They also have Daniel Defense M4 XVs prices at $1550. He said that he would sell me one of those for $1200. That thing already has a quad rail, VFG, Magpul stock, etc. I kind of just want a nice, light standard config M4 tho, at least at first.

Edited December 18, 2010 by SpetsnazGRU

[paprotective 362]

Thats what started grabbing at me.. the add-ons..

I got the MagPul MBUS (Rear-Flip), Midwest Ind (Front- Flip), Hogue PG, and 2 Pmags (for .308 cal).. already at $1300.. from $1K..

 

Oh well gotta pay to play I guess.. found an older EoTech 552 w/NV for $160 on Eabay.. should be here tommorrow..

 

Couldn't see this without something riding on top..

 

I would do a Spike Tactical Lower (or Surplus Arms & Ammo lower) for the .223/5.56 then build UP >>> from there..

 

Aim has the lowers VERY cheap right now..

 

 

Al

Edited December 18, 2010 by YWHIC

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

Colt... $1100 cash, out the door... Sold.

DD... $1200 cash, out the door... Sold

 

Take your pick, both fine carbines.

Personally, I'd go with the DD.

[Arik 565]

I bought the same DD last year for $950. Dunno about Colt

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

I bought the same DD last year for $950. Dunno about Colt

Just to clarify... The Upper alone or the whole carbine?

I've seen either go for that price, weird idn't it what uppers can fetch compared to complete carbines?

 

Anyways I digress, if it is a DD XV and not a XV EZ, then with MagPul buttstock & other additions (if they're quality parts) to the basix XV, the price is reasonable.

XV MSRP is $1300, average retail is about $1100.00

[BrutalGardener 205]

Actually, that Daniel Defense that they want to sell me for $1200 is not the XV. It's the one that looks like this:

 

Edited December 18, 2010 by SpetsnazGRU

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

Thats the DD V1, MSRP $1500+, average retail $1300.

 

Thats the DD Omega X 12" FSP rail, it is sweet, I've one on my S&W M&P15.

[Arik 565]

Actually, that Daniel Defense that they want to sell me for $1200 is not the XV. It's the one that looks like this:

 

 

Chile this is what the one I had looked like. Dunno if it was a v4 or v1 but it looked like that and.had.the omaga hg. The price was for the whole rifle. Bought last Jan/Feb at a gun show. Sold it in Sept to finance my SBR.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Arik

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

 

 

Chile this is what the one I had looked like. Dunno if it was a v4 or v1 but it looked like that and.had.the omaga hg. The price was for the whole rifle. Bought last Jan/Feb at a gun show. Sold it in Sept to finance my SBR.

Dammit man, $950.00, you got a hell of a deal on that... I hope you're enjoying the SBR.

[BrutalGardener 205]

Chile this is what the one I had looked like. Dunno if it was a v4 or v1 but it looked like that and.had.the omaga hg. The price was for the whole rifle. Bought last Jan/Feb at a gun show. Sold it in Sept to finance my SBR.

 

How was it, Arik?

[Arik 565]

Spets- it was my first AR. I fed it a steady diet of Russian .223, Serbian 556 nato and everything else.....a.d never cleaned it. No jams no fte or ftf...nothing. Ran lime a champ. They are 1/7 twist.

 

Chile - lol. Not yet man. My form was approved on the 13th. Just waiting for the stamp to come in the mail so I can pick her up. It was a nice rifle and it was either trade the DD or the Mak90. I just couldn't let the Mak go. Very accurate, reliable and in x39. Its my shtf and all around favorite AK.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Arik

[ARgal 3]

i have yet to need to clean mine. I mostly shoot .22's thru the Ciener conversion, but about 1000 rds per year of 223. I just keep it "wet" with WD-40, so that the fouling doesn't get a chance to "harden" and it just keeps on ticking, like the superfine piece of gear that it is. Those who malign the AR have never seen the millions of very reliable guns firing thousands of rds without incident, or more likely, they just lie about it.

[MT Predator 2,294]

WD-40 isn't a very good lubricant for an AR but hey, whatever works for you.

[Mephis 82]

Regardless how much you like AKs or think they're the only reliable thing out there, if you don't load an AR15 up with garbage it will end up being the most obvious "fighting" gun of anything you have. My RRA went 3 years without being cleaned and was still running fine on crappy PMC.

 

I just got done overhauling it today and making my own ideal version of an SPR.

 

 

And who ever said 1/9 won't stabilize M855 is plain nuts. It won't do well with M856 tracers but they're also longer than 77gr SMKs. 1/7 twist was blanket adopted because of the M856 tracer. 1/9 is optimal for 62gr, and M855 is similar in size to 69gr bullets. Still well within the limit, since most 1/9s will handle 75gr hornady loads.

[Joesmoe 14]

And as far as most uppers and lowers go there only a hand full of companies casting the forges and there all just about equal in quality the make it or break it parts for a good ar are the bolt carrier group and the barrel in my opinion, and even some of the cheap stuff is getting to be really reliable.