How can I sell My Bull Pup Quad Rail Design Concept

[Boba Debt 350]

[MT Predator 2,294]

Dude, you cannot take another manufacturer's product, modify it, call it your own, and commercially market it. That's stealing from your buddies at UTG. The electrical conduit guys might get pissed at you for marking up and selling their product as a barrel shroud as well. Didn't mean to on your great idea!

ETA: The conduit guys couldn't prove anything but I'm pretty sure UTG has a Patent on their stuff.

Edited December 18, 2010 by MT Predator

[Boba Debt 350]

Normally I would ignore your stupid trolling replies but this one is too good to pass up on

 

 

 

 

 

So your saying UTG would be upset if AK Customs bought my concept and then order 500 units of each item from them to produce and sell a finished product?

 

Heres how that conversation would go (according to you)

 

Hello UTG and KVAR, remember that cool Quad Rail you all loved that I made a few of? Well, I just sold the concept to AK Customs and they want to order 500 of each unit needed to build this AK.

 

What!!!

 

You're pissed, you would rather I kept this to myself and only built 2-3 of these a month.

 

Ok, I refund their money, please send me 2 of each unit.

 

Thanks

 

 

PS Dumbass: if you significantly alter a product you can get a patent on your changes which actually prohibits the parent patent from infringing on YOUR patent.

 

PPS Dumbass: nothing I use for my Bull Pup Quad Rail has a patent on it.

 

 

PPPS Dumbass: If you think this is easy to do, buy a S-12 and 7.62 rail and make one for your bull pup. I do it in my shop with a table saw, drill press and right angle grinder.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Boba Debt

[MT Predator 2,294]

Ask Cameron if you can hack up some Chaos rails and sell them under your name. Oh that's right, you are too fucking cheap to buy a Chaos so that wouldn't work! It's still stealing unless UTG says it's cool to alter their parts and resell them.

You can only think of Arsenal as an AK builder? Why don't you look at some of the Business Members on here genius. I think there are a few folks on here that build AKs. Contact some of them and see if there is an interest.

PS: Dumbass, I don't think Arsenal will neuter one of their rifles with this crap and start selling bullpups.

[Boba Debt 350]

[Boba Debt 350]

[MT Predator 2,294]

You may have a small market for the bullpup crowd but that is a pretty small audience. If the KVAR kit is such a quality product, and the fact Arsenal is linked to them, don't you think you'd see Arsenal bullpups? Did you let UTG know of your mass marketing plans with their product? Sure they will cut a deal with you to sell you random pieces to make money. The only logical thing to do is see if you can sell your plans to them since they mass produce rails anyway and maybe get KVAR and UTG together on it since you are using products from both. What you are doing is like taking a Polaris ATV, adding Honda fenders and a Yamaha seat to it, and selling the plans to Suzuki. Before giving others a lesson on punctuation and grammar, be sure to proofread your own post.

PS Dumbass!

PSS Is that better?

[MT Predator 2,294]

I'm pretty sure Cameron can come up with the same thing and not have to have you as a middleman to market them if the demand for such a rail system was high enough.

[Boba Debt 350]

You just can't stop being a dick.

 

You don't seem to pay attention to anything I post, you make these baseless assumptions and accusations without even getting the posted facts straight.

 

I get the impression that arguing the people on the net is the only joy in your life so I'll just go back to ignoring you.

[MT Predator 2,294]

You do not have to reply so you have the joy of ignoring me. You'll read this anyway so here you go. I have read this post thoroughly and I see what you are trying to do. I'm pretty sure UTG has their products legally protected. You say they know what you are doing with their components which is fine with them because they are selling parts for custom builds. When you start talking of selling plans to modify their stuff and mass produce it, I'm also pretty sure they'd rather produce the bullpup rail themselves eliminating a middleman keeping more money in their pocket. I would imagine they would rather market something properly produced with the UTG name on it than something hacked on your tablesaw in the garage. I do not intend on coming on this forum to argue with people. It's just that you set yourself up to be criticized in such a way because you present yourself as such a dumbass.

[vbrtrmn 167]

Boba, it is called a service, not a product. There are plenty of companies out there which modify or combine other company's products and resell them. The only unfortunate part is since the base of your kit is non-US, it doesn't count toward 922r compliance. If you're interested in making your own kit Shernic Gun Works makes a nice bullpup kit for the SKS, I believe they use MacFam Plastics to do their molding. SGWorks started, I think, 2 years ago taking pre-orders they recently started shipping and videos have started popping up on youtube.

[Boba Debt 350]

Boba, it is called a service, not a product.

 

 

 

I never said I was selling a product. I provide a "service" on a limited basis but I would like to sell my "concept" to someone that could really turn it into a profitable venture.

 

R&D can get expensive fast. All the R&D on my concept is done and it works.

 

Could someone buy one of my finished rails, reverse engineer it and then sell it on their own? YES, but that would be pretty shitty.

 

 

 

MT keeps bringing up invalid points and I'm sure he does it just to be a dick. Either that or he's a fucking idiot.

 

His point that it appeals to small market is wrong, J&G and Atlantic Firearms sell a lot of these and the kits are always out of stock. I bet if either of them offered a turn key Bull Pup with my rail for $799 they would sell like hot cakes. However, I'm not the person that could provide them with enough inventory to make it profitable at that price point.

 

UTG couldn’t offer this as an off the shelf rail because it's not a direct bolt on kit. The end user would needs some basic skills to make the final adjustments to make it fit their gun. That is why I talk (on the phone) with every person before they buy my kit. I want to make sure that they understand exactly what they will have to do and I make myself available for all of the support then need via the phone. I don’t know of anyone that could offer that level of service and maintain a profit

 

 

 

I have made it clear that UTG knows that I buy their rails to modify and resell them. We have even discussed discounts for larger quantities, but I just don't have the time to put 100 kits together.

 

I have also made it clear to him that there are no patents on any of the items I use. KVAR has no patent on the Bull Pup Kit, UTG has no patent on the Quad Rails and Tapco has no patents on the butt stock pad or stubby vertical grip.

 

I also doubt either of those companies would be upset if I ordered 100 of each of the units required to make my concept

 

 

His Polaris analogy is so flawed it borders on retarded. A more accurate analogy would be:

 

Ford Mustang.........Mustang GT.........Shelby Mustang

AK-47...........CIA Bull Pup..........My Quad Rail Concept.

 

Just as Shelby enhances a Mustang GTs performance and looks, my quad rail enhances the performance and looks of an AK Bull Pup

 

This is the Shelby of the Ak Bull Pup family.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not bad for a garage hack with table saw.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Boba Debt

[PRISONSHANK 70]

...airsoft

[Jpanzer 1,265]

It's been my experience that whenever someone has to give themselves props for something rather than getting props from others there is usually something fishy going on....

[Boba Debt 350]

It's been my experience that whenever someone has to give themselves props for something rather than getting props from others there is usually something fishy going on....

 

 

And it has been my experience that when someone butts into a conversation without knowing the history they normally look foolish.

 

Many people on several forums love the look of this rifle. Everyone that has handle and or shot it, loves the feel of it and so far everyone that has bought the kit for me has been very happy with it.

 

But don;t take my word, here is a review from the first person that bought my kit:

 

Parts arrived yesterday, assembled this last night. Many thanks to BobaDebt from the Saiga-12 forum for his hard work on the rails and assistance with assembling the bullpup kit. He's awesome. I'm also posting a review, as requested by him, as I am apparently his "zero customer" for this type of build.

 

The rifle was originally a cheap 5.45x39mm AK-74 clone (stamped "NDS-2") I bought locally. 16" barrel, Nodak Spud stamped receiver, slightly canted FSB, mismatched wood/poly furniture - it was intended to be a project gun, just didn't have a specific project in mind yet. Someone posted a picture of his AK build during a discussion of bullpups here, and I tracked it back to a build thread on the Saiga-12 boards, where I found his e-mail and contacted him about replicating his gun. Mine has a longer top rail for irons instead of optics, right-angle gas block instead of 45-degree, and is the smaller of the two calibers - his was the original 7.62x39mm variant.

 

Took off the furniture, rear sight leaf, and front sight block. Cut a notch into the safety for a BHO, and swapped out the upper handguard for a smooth gas tube. Then I got the UTG rails and covers from BobaDebt, who extensively modified them to fit all prettily atop the CAI bullpup kit. I haven't decided what to do with the unfinished muzzle yet, might have someone thread it for a birdcage hider or something.

 

His work is superb, very professional and precise - everything fits like a glove, with no unusual fitting work required (except for removing the sling swivel, which I should have done in the first place - that was my fault). He baked on some black paint to the rails for a nice uniform look, sadly I ended up sanding some of this finish off during the fitting (but I can always repaint later). Also, he standardized the bolts - they all have the same threads and twist, and almost all use the same wrench - and no wrenches or unusual disassembly are required for standard field stripping and cleaning. One of the little finishing touches I enjoy is on the rail covers - he cut them to fit the side rails perfectly, leaving a curved front edge.

 

I did leave off the spare dust cover with cheekrest that's normally part of the bullpup kit, because I have a receiver side mount on the rifle that I cannot figure out how to easily remove. Haven't decided which way to take it yet, might just put a rail mount on it and then add more rubber covers to use as a cheekrest - if smoothed out, I think they'd be quite comfy.

 

The kit overall is very sturdy, more so than I had expected. The grip and stock are the same glass-reinforced polymer that my Mossberg used for furniture, and the trigger is relatively clean - though it does have the usual bullpup long pull. The rails sit on the lower handguard perfectly, as if they were meant to be there, and then screw into the sides in back. The top rail rests on the rear sight base, and has two bolts that place a small amount of tension straight down on the gas tube for additional support. The foregrip is on a 1" spacer to b ring it down to the same plane as the main grip, and has a Tapco "stubby". Inside I can fit one round, or perhaps a single CR123 battery. Haven't tried fitting much else in there, but it is too short to hold the disassembly wrenches I have (not a big deal to me). I grip it rather high, with a thumb resting on the side rail, and it feels very natural and gives excellent control over the muzzle.

 

All told, the gun now weighs slightly more than in the original configuration, at 8.9lbs with a loaded 30-rounder. The center of mass is just behind the main grip, and it's easily wielded one-handed.

 

It cycles well, no trigger reset issues, and reloads are actually a lot easier than the original configuration. You can index new magazines on the underside of the pistol grip, as it has a beveled and recessed area that fits the curve nicely (it was designed for the 7.62mm mags, but mine work just as well).

 

The LOP is about 17", and I find it quite comfortable - in fact, I'm thinking of adding a shotgun recoil pad to the stock to push it out a tad further. I'm 6'0" and skinny with long limbs, so the current configuration will probably be fine for most. One of the reasons this works so well, is that your offhand doesn't have to reach out beyond a magwell to grip the weapon. The second grip is about 1.5" in front of the trigger itself, and even with thick winter gloves on my hands don't interfere with each other when gripping them.

 

BobaDebt was a pleasure to work with, and he was very helpful with the build throughout. In addition to all the work on the parts, he helped me over the phone in case I had any troubles assembling the kit when it arrived, and we've been corresponding via e-mail for several weeks now.

 

Overall, I was very impressed with his level of friendliness and customer service, and his work is top-tier. Well worth every penny.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Boba Debt

[Marrok857 51]

Personally I think it looks cool, but Iam not a fan of bull pup weapons.

[Boba Debt 350]

 

I love it when you you guys argue but normaly MT Predator is right on about your stuff and ideas Boba. I had to read this post twice to get all the laughs out of it.

 

 

So you place more value on the comments of a cynical cranky troll who has never touched anything I built over the personal experience of some that bought one of my kits, mounted it his rifle and actually shot it?

 

Wow, you have some screwed up brain filters

Edited December 19, 2010 by Boba Debt

[dannyfantasy2000 68]

Looks pretty good to me. Any chance we can get a pic with AR BUIS in place of the optic?

[Boba Debt 350]

Here are some progress pics with different sight set ups

 

 

 

 

 

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

So you place more value on the comments of a cynical cranky troll whi has never touched anything I built over the personal experience of some that bought one of my kits, mounted it his rifle and actually shot it?

 

Wow, you have some screwed up brain filters

 

Don't worry about daniel, Boba. He is likely no more than 14 years old or so, or if he is an adult, likely has a mental handicap. I've seen him in "chat" and there is no way in hell that the guy is "all there"

[Boba Debt 350]

Classy I know you have a fetish for hateing on me, I dont care. I dont measure my dick by post counts or a 1000 reputaion, tell me your credentials and ill tell you mine. I hope someone actually takes you seriousely in the real world for your rep on Saiga Forums.

 

Boba if you want to tinker in your garage and if people like your product thats cool, but I just never saw the point in your Bullpop desighn.

 

 

Good luck to both of you.

 

 

 

I didn't design the Bull Pup. I created the quad rail system by combining modified off the shelf parts.

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

Classy I know you have a fetish for hateing on me, I dont care. I dont measure my dick by post counts or a 1000 reputaion, tell me your credentials and ill tell you mine. I hope someone actually takes you seriousely in the real world for your rep on Saiga Forums.

 

Boba if you want to tinker in your garage and if people like your product thats cool, but I just never saw the point in your Bullpop desighn.

 

 

Good luck to both of you.

 

Not bad, your spelling is getting better at least. Did you ever find a buyer for that stolen US government property you had up for sale?

[BpS12 512]

BD, now that you have shared your design mods with UTG, whats to stop them from going one step better and doing their own kit, without the use of KVAR's lower/PG/butt? I mean it would be easy as pie for them, all they have to do is adjust/block/remove parts of the mold and develope a trigger and FCG(which can be a modded Tapco), add a bolt-on triggerguard and your choice of PGs, a buttplate/pad, and there you have an ALL(or most all) UTG Bullpup kit.

 

Boba, your builds are nice and get good reviews. But as a kit, they could be better/more cost effective.

 

You provide a great service. If you don't have time to keep up with demand, RAISE your prices a bit. You can do that as long as you're in demand. If interest drops off, drop your prices just a bit till interest picks up again. It's just a matter of adjusting for supply and demand.

 

Selling a concept isn't as easy as people think. Did you ever do anything to OFFICIALLY date when you first came up with/started useing your concept? If not. Someone else can take it and run. Court is a fickle place, not to mention EXPENSIVE.

 

Good luck

[vbrtrmn 167]

I gave you a suggestion, seems like you just want to argue with me, I don't really care about you're drama fest with MT.

[Boba Debt 350]

[BpS12 512]

Boba, it's not all that deep really. Time consumeing because of the the way most of us are doing it. But UTG would just have to tweak some molds and maybe get Tapco to do similar. They are in a much better position than most of us. MD Arms or any of the other quad rail makers would be as well.

 

What I mean by "cost effective" is exactly what you mentioned. If someone has the molds/machining to do the quads in the first place, THEY will be able to do it faster and easier with less waste. Your prices are good-great considering that you are likely paying what..$160+ for the KVAR kit and $60+ for the rails? And how much material do you have left over? That's waste ie, money out of your pocket. Not to mention time.

 

Hel, you've seen mine. Talk about a hack job, lol. More bits and modified peices than you could shoot at without getting finger cramps. My new build is designed to be more individually customeizable and universal. From lenth, venting, rail placement to PG and trigger guard. And that's just one way to go.

 

If you really want to sell a concept, figure out how to mod one kit or another to do what you want. But I doubt many, if any, will be interested in trying to hack together peices from two different kits. Infringement and all that is just the begining, patents aside.

 

PS - I once tried to get Centuary Arms and KVAR to sell me just peices of their kits. No go. You may have better luck.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

So you place more value on the comments of a cynical cranky troll whi has never touched anything I built over the personal experience of some that bought one of my kits, mounted it his rifle and actually shot it?

 

Wow, you have some screwed up brain filters

 

Don't worry about daniel, Boba. He is likely no more than 14 years old or so, or if he is an adult, likely has a mental handicap. I've seen him in "chat" and there is no way in hell that the guy is "all there"

 

I gotta go into chat more often. It seems we miss all the good stuff.

[MT Predator 2,294]

Could someone buy one of my finished rails, reverse engineer it and then sell it on their own? YES, but that would be pretty shitty.

With the photos you sent UTG, the parts you buy from them, and the conversation about what you are doing with them, you gave UTG great intel as far as reverse engineering these parts if they felt there were a feasible market for them. After all, UTG started out by making knock off airsoft shit. What would stop them from copying your design if they wanted it? Like BpS12 said, they could do it a lot cheaper with much less waste in materials and labor.

[MT Predator 2,294]

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

All pissing contests aside, the best way to do it would be to get a private investor to lend you the capital to start your own plastic molding (instead of the KVAR kit) and then send the specs of the rail to a CNC fabricator and have them do a production run.

 

You would have to invest in probably at least 500-1000 to come in the ball park of being profitable.

 

You would then have to get an FFL license to take in the guns and send them out.

 

 

 

The key factor to this is a positive answer to, "Can I quickly sell the break-even number to make this work financially?" "Is the demand enough to cover the costs or is it going to take 2+ years to sell these?"

 

If you can't show the market demand concretely, it is unlikely that you will get a private investor to stick money in a project that doesn't show high returns over a short period of time.