Refinishing Saiga 12

[macaholic 5]

I would like to hear from any and all who have refinished their Saiga 12's with Molly coat, Gun coat or Dura coat. I would like to spray over the original finish in order to achieve better adhesion. My experience with Molly and Gun coat, have resulted in chiping and flaking when I sprayed over bare metal or sand blasted metal. If I use dura coat, I would like to sand the original finish as I would any other finish, but I have not used this product as of yet. Some say, it is recomended that I sand blast before Dura coat is applied. Lastly, I plan to use a MIG welder to fill in the holes on the receiver of my Saiga 12. I am aware that a MIG does not penetrate metal like a TIG welder, but I have no access to a TIG, nor have I any experience with this type of welder. Give brothers, I need some hands on.

Edited December 18, 2010 by macaholic

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I started a topic in the tech section the other day about painting polymers. Check there for some good links to Brownells site and some finish prep video. (one is for steel)

I'm getting ready to get a blast cabinet and had the same kind of questions.

 

[nayo 6]

I would like to hear from any and all who have refinished their Saiga 12's with Molly coat, Gun coat or Dura coat. I would like to spray over the original finish in order to achieve better adhesion. My experience with Molly and Gun coat, have resulted in chiping and flaking when I sprayed over bare metal or sand blasted metal. If I use dura coat, I would like to sand the original finish as I would any other finish, but I have not used this product as of yet. Some say, it is recomended that I sand blast before Dura coat is applied. Lastly, I plan to use a MIG welder to fill in the holes on the receiver of my Saiga 12. I am aware that a MIG does not penetrate metal like a TIG welder, but I have no access to a TIG, nor have I any experience with this type of welder. Give brothers, I need some hands on.

 

 

I was going to call you last night Macholic!!! I tried this on Thursday a customer of mine wanted to just spray the area that showed bare metal after his conversion was done. After spraying the area that overlaped the orginal finish it could be chipped of using your fingnail It did not adhear to the orginal finish very well.

[rockmup 12]

Do NOT paint over the stock coating. Its junk and will come back to haunt you. Spray it down with brake cleaner real well and sand off the rest if you dont have a blast cab. You'll be much more happy.

 

 

Theres nothing wrong with the mig if you know how to weld.

Edited December 18, 2010 by rockmup

[Bvamp 604]

Brownells Black baking laquer is a near perfect match to the factory. blast bare areas and degrease, heat the sucker up, give it two coats of the stuff, and bake.I forget the temperature the metal has to reach for correct curing, so you will need to check the brownells site for info.

[macaholic 5]

Do NOT paint over the stock coating. Its junk and will come back to haunt you. Spray it down with brake cleaner real well and sand off the rest if you dont have a blast cab. You'll be much more happy.

 

 

Theres nothing wrong with the mig if you know how to weld.

 

 

Thanks for the info, I realy don't want to sand blast the entire gun and it seems as there are two different finishes on the Saiga 12. From what I've read on the thread concerning the use of Break free, this chemical only breaks down the reciever portion of the gun. I am considering molly coating the barrel and possibly Dura coating the reciever if I can simply sand down the finish on the reciever rather than sand blast. I like Molly coat and have used it many times in the past, I just don't want this project to become an experimental venture. Also, I have been able to spray Molly coat over pre existing finishes on other firearms with great success. I guess I just want to know what I have to do as far as what finish has to be stripped, and if I can simply spray Molly coat over the original finish on the barrel, sinse it seems to be stronger than the finish on the reciever. As a last resort, I would like to be able to strip or sand blast the receiver, and leave the original finish on the barrel, then Molly coat the entire gun, if at all possible.

Edited December 18, 2010 by macaholic

[kresk 10,063]

Brownells Black baking laquer is a near perfect match to the factory. blast bare areas and degrease, heat the sucker up, give it two coats of the stuff, and bake.I forget the temperature the metal has to reach for correct curing, so you will need to check the brownells site for info.

That is great stuff. I parkerize the gun first then use the lacquer. Think the temp is 325-350 degrees, depending on how long you bake it.

[macaholic 5]

I started a topic in the tech section the other day about painting polymers. Check there for some good links to Brownells site and some finish prep video. (one is for steel)

I'm getting ready to get a blast cabinet and had the same kind of questions.

 

 

 

Thanks for the reply Cobra, I like the video's too. I have a good amount of experience with Gun coat as well as molly coat and they are both fine products. I just want to find out what I can and can't get away with, as far as how the factory finish will hold up under a backed finish, or a two part catalized finish such as Dura coat. I have a freind who swears by Dura coat, and he says that he can spray directly over the original finish of the receiver without any problems. No peeling or flaking. I appreciate all the info I'm getting so far and please give more. Any and all who have hands on with this topic.

[lksyotas 4]

I just refinished my Saiga about four weeks ago with flat black Gunkote. I didn't want to blast the entire gun either (have a blast cabinet but only did the removable parts like the selector, top cover, fire control parts, etc).

 

For the receiver, gas tube, and barrel assembly I simply hosed it down with acetone and sanded the majority of the finish off by hand. The acetone really does take the original finish off almost down to bare metal. I'm pretty confident if I left it overnight in a solution it would be stripped. Anyway, the flat black Gunkote ended up being a bit duller and more slightly more gray than the original finish. I'd like to try the Brownells laquor sometime also.

 

The finish is holding up great - only wear shown so far is the line from the selector. Even the bolt carrier is holding up great! I have about 200 rounds through it since I refinished it so its hard to tell how long it will last but from previous experiences it should do just fine.

 

I really love Gunkote, I've refinished a hand full of rifles, shotguns, handguns, and smaller parts with it and have never had a bad turn out. Good luck with your en devour!

 

(the SPR in my profile pic upper receiver, barrel assembly was done the same way - except those parts were blasted first. It matched the lower hard anodized receiver pretty closely...)

Edited December 19, 2010 by lksyotas

[Wade Pruetz 103]

Don't paint over your original finish, the new finish is only as good as what you are painting over. I always use GunKote because I think the baking process creates a finish that wears better and lasts longer. When you bake the finish on the only way to get it off is to sand blast it.

[Matchgrade 27]

I get good results with GunKote. I just haven't done my Saiga because it won't fit in my oven. Here is a RIA 1911 I put together with Ed Brown and McCormick internals and a Model 12 that was in bad shape that I did last week.

[scarbrough68289 76]

My Saiga 12 is currently out of commission until I get it sent in for warranty work(I have been dragging my ass on that). I had the gun duracoated and currently do not have a gun safe. My office is one way in, one way out and it sits behind my fireplace with a reinforced 2 inch thick dead-bolted out swing(into the living room) door so no one can get in anyways. My Saiga sits in a corner leaning against the wall that we painted using a "suede" paint. The wall feels like 100 grit sand paper and there is a wear mark on the wall but surprisingly not on the weapon. Duracoat is some good stuff.

[macaholic 5]

I just refinished my Saiga about four weeks ago with flat black Gunkote. I didn't want to blast the entire gun either (have a blast cabinet but only did the removable parts like the selector, top cover, fire control parts, etc).

 

For the receiver, gas tube, and barrel assembly I simply hosed it down with acetone and sanded the majority of the finish off by hand. The acetone really does take the original finish off almost down to bare metal. I'm pretty confident if I left it overnight in a solution it would be stripped. Anyway, the flat black Gunkote ended up being a bit duller and more slightly more gray than the original finish. I'd like to try the Brownells laquor sometime also.

 

The finish is holding up great - only wear shown so far is the line from the selector. Even the bolt carrier is holding up great! I have about 200 rounds through it since I refinished it so its hard to tell how long it will last but from previous experiences it should do just fine.

 

I really love Gunkote, I've refinished a hand full of rifles, shotguns, handguns, and smaller parts with it and have never had a bad turn out. Good luck with your en devour!

 

(the SPR in my profile pic upper receiver, barrel assembly was done the same way - except those parts were blasted first. It matched the lower hard anodized receiver pretty closely...)

 

Yes, Guncoat is a good product that I've had much experience with on past firearms. My only concern is that it scratches very easily when sprayed over bare metal, even when you sand blast. I have had the best results when I was able to sand or degreas the pre existing finish on a particular firearm, then spray and bake over that finish, using it as a bond for the Gun coat or Molly coat. I'm at a real dead end here, because I've heard so many bad things about spraying over the original Saiga finish, that I will probably end up sand blasting the entire receiver. I read about a new product from KG Industries called K phos. I think it may give better adheasion properties to bare metal and if so, I will probably go in that direction. I do want to apply some form of spray/bake finish whether it's Molly or KG Guncoat. Do you have any experience with this new K phos product?

Edited December 22, 2010 by macaholic

[macaholic 5]

My Saiga 12 is currently out of commission until I get it sent in for warranty work(I have been dragging my ass on that). I had the gun duracoated and currently do not have a gun safe. My office is one way in, one way out and it sits behind my fireplace with a reinforced 2 inch thick dead-bolted out swing(into the living room) door so no one can get in anyways. My Saiga sits in a corner leaning against the wall that we painted using a "suede" paint. The wall feels like 100 grit sand paper and there is a wear mark on the wall but surprisingly not on the weapon. Duracoat is some good stuff.

 

 

I am considering Dura coat as well, but I have no previous experience with this particular paint product and want to do this gun the right way from the start. I have seen some Saiga 12's done in Dura coat that looked like texture coat, and some that looked like parkerized finish. I would like some technical info on what the mixing ratio is for the reducer/hardner and what air pressure is recomended. I like the finish that looked like park, and would like to follow the procedure necesarry to produce this finish if I go with Dura coat. I agree that Dura coat is very strong, and would probably resist scratches better than Molly or Gun coat, but I understand that it's much thicker, and again, I have no previous experience with this product, and I can't seem to find any info on how to properly apply it, in order to get the results I'm looking for.

Edited December 22, 2010 by macaholic

[Wade Pruetz 103]

What? Duracoat is much stronger than Molly or GunKote? Says who? I have used both and can tell you that the opposite is true. Both GunKote and Molly are much better finishes than Duracoat! Try and scratch off Molly or Gunkote with your fingernail, bet you can't do it. Now try it with the DuraCoat. Look if Duracoat was a better product everyone would use it because it is much easier to apply and you don't need an oven to cure it. What do all the top builders use? I assure you more often than not the are using either Molly-Resin or GunKote. As for the textured finish it is a combination of things, first if your gun was blasted with a coarse media or a strong park job the paint applied over it will reflect that same textured finish. This is paint after all and not thick epoxy. Secondly the mixure of air and paint can also affect how textured the paint finish turns out.

[chriskroll411 2]

Alright, I like my hardware currently installed and have decided on MOLY RESIN. Don't have the equipment to bake a SAIGA. Anybody know anyone in Harris county TX that could be of assistance?

[vulcan16 971]

Alright, I like my hardware currently installed and have decided on MOLY RESIN. Don't have the equipment to bake a SAIGA. Anybody know anyone in Harris county TX that could be of assistance?

 

TAC47 and they are a forum sponsor.

[chriskroll411 2]

Alright, I like my hardware currently installed and have decided on MOLY RESIN. Don't have the equipment to bake a SAIGA. Anybody know anyone in Harris county TX that could be of assistance?

 

TAC47 and they are a forum sponsor.

Totally forgot TAC is in Houston. Was just chatting with him last week. Thanks.

[6500rpm 670]

If you prep right and abrasive blast w/ 70 grit aluminum oxide and wash down with MEK, spray with MollyResin (Norrell's)- it's a hard finish to beat in it's price range. Bake at 300-350 and it's tough as nails. Over park is one step better yet.

[macaholic 5]

If you prep right and abrasive blast w/ 70 grit aluminum oxide and wash down with MEK, spray with MollyResin (Norrell's)- it's a hard finish to beat in it's price range. Bake at 300-350 and it's tough as nails. Over park is one step better yet.

 

 

I agree that spraying over park is the best medium for optimum adhearance, but I don't want to go into parkerizing the entire gun. I like Molly and KG guncoat, but as I said before, I have seen these two products scratch very easily when sprayed over bare metal. If this new product K- Phos will will act as a primer base for better adheasion, I will probably go with KG gun coat or Molly resin. I have a very strong back ground in automotive refinishing and I am knowledgable with many name brand paint systems in the industry. Normally, any given paint product will give detailed instructions on how to use their product on the can. So far, no one has been able to give me any of the instructions if any, given by Dura coat, listed in their liturature. I would like some detailed info concerning mixing ratios of this product, as well as air pressure and spray eqipment. I have used an air brush in the past for the application of Molly and Gun coat, and would probably do the same if I were to go with Dura coat. I like my finish to look like that the dull flat non-reflective produced in parkerizing and would like to kwow how to acheive this finish with Dura coat, in the event that I choose to go with this particular paint system. I saw a touch up gun at Horbor Freight that that looks like an HVLP but it's not. It's a very small gravity feed gun with a lavender colored frame. I saw this same gun pictured in another post on this site, and would like some info on the perfomance ot this particular spray gun. I would like the gun I use to produce a very fine mist like that of an air brush. Does this gun I speak of do that? Give me some more info brothers, I think we are making progress.

Edited December 23, 2010 by macaholic

[BobAsh 582]

We use Norrels Moly Resin exclusively.

 

You can bake it in your oven at home.

[Matchgrade 27]

I use K-Phos on all the stuff I Gun Kote (guns, motorcycle cylinders and parts, etc...) and find that it helps with durability and scratch resistance. It also prevents rust from forming on the part after it is sprayed. It is easy to apply and there's no baking of the K-Phos prior to spraying and baking the Gun Kote.

I blast all my parts with 120 grit aluminum oxide before aplying the K-Phos.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Matchgrade

[macaholic 5]

We use Norrels Moly Resin exclusively.

 

You can bake it in your oven at home.

 

 

Thanks Bob, I probably will go with Molly or KG Gunkoat sinse I've used both in the past. I still have some time because Tom still has my gun and I don't want to bug him, because I'm sure he's very busy with the holyday's and all. I was wondering, do you sandblast the entire gun, or can you spray over the barrell with molly? I understand that the finish on the reciever will break down with break cleaner, whereas the barrel and trunion will not. Whats your opinion on this matter?

Edited December 23, 2010 by macaholic

[macaholic 5]

I use K-Phos on all the stuff I Gun Kote (guns, motorcycle cylinders and parts, etc...) and find that it helps with durability and scratch resistance. It also prevents rust from forming on the part after it is sprayed. It is easy to apply and there's no baking of the K-Phos prior to spraying and baking the Gun Kote.

I blast all my parts with 120 grit aluminum oxide before aplying the K-Phos.

 

Have you sprayed John Norrells Mollycoat over the K-phos? I only ask because I would like to know if these two products are compatible with each other. I like both Molly and KG, but I may choose to go with Molly coat because you don't have to use as high a temperature to cure as you do Gunkoat. If I remember correctly, Molly coat will cure at 180 degrees for one hour, where you must bake Gunkoat at 325 for an hour. Anyway, let me know what your experience has been with the compatibility of these two products. Oh yes! What's the difference in the 1600 and 2300 series KG ind has listed on their website? I think one is a darker black than the other and one has more self lubricating propertes. I've used the original KG years ago and it produced a very dry dark charcol gray finish which looked very nice. Anyway, some more hands on would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Edited December 23, 2010 by macaholic

[Matchgrade 27]

You can use Norrell's Mollycoat over a base of K-Phos with no problems.

I use 2400 series GunKote because of it's extra durability, abrasion resistance,flex properties and more color selection (I mostly use flat black). 1600 adds more lubricating properties, but I've never used it. I used 2300 in the past but changed to 2400 because of the attributes listed above.

[BobAsh 582]

We sandblast and spray the whole thing.

 

Also regarding the welds it's not a penetration issue, but with tig you can use less heat. I know quite a few guys that have filled the holes using mig, but keep a wet rag handy and quench often.

[BobAsh 582]

Tony uses a gravity gun very similar to what you are describing.

[6500rpm 670]

Just wanted to repeat that surface prep is a must for any given application followed by proper curing. Also MolyResin is MEK based. MEK's one and only goal in life is to eat shit if it can. If you spray it over a standard paint, it's going to attack it-same for "most" plastics.

[rockmup 12]

If you prep right and abrasive blast w/ 70 grit aluminum oxide and wash down with MEK, spray with MollyResin (Norrell's)- it's a hard finish to beat in it's price range. Bake at 300-350 and it's tough as nails. Over park is one step better yet.

 

 

I agree that spraying over park is the best medium for optimum adhearance,Not really true but often repeated on the internet but I don't want to go into parkerizing the entire gun. I like Molly and KG guncoat, but as I said before, I have seen these two products scratch very easily when sprayed over bare metal. If not prepped or applied right they will all do this.If this new product K- Phos will will act as a primer base for better adheasion, I will probably go with KG gun coat or Molly resin. I have a very strong back ground in automotive refinishing and I am knowledgable with many name brand paint systems in the industry. Normally, any given paint product will give detailed instructions on how to use their product on the can. So far, no one has been able to give me any of the instructions if any, given by Dura coat, listed in their liturature. I would like some detailed info concerning mixing ratios of this product,12:1 start there. If you want more gloss go to 14:1 less go 10:1. as well as air pressure and spray eqipment. Air Pressure @ 40psi. HVLP or air brush with a 5mm needle. I have used an air brush in the past for the application of Molly and Gun coat, and would probably do the same if I were to go with Dura coat. I like my finish to look like that the dull flat non-reflective produced in parkerizing and would like to kwow how to acheive this finish with Dura coat, in the event that I choose to go with this particular paint system. I saw a touch up gun at Horbor Freight that that looks like an HVLP but it's not. It's a very small gravity feed gun with a lavender colored frame. I saw this same gun pictured in another post on this site, and would like some info on the perfomance ot this particular spray gun. I would like the gun I use to produce a very fine mist like that of an air brush. Does this gun I speak of do that? Give me some more info brothers, I think we are making progress.Get the 40.00 HVLP gun and you'll be just fine

 

If using an HVLP no reduction is needed. Air brush, reduce it 10-20%. Buy their reducer or use MEK. Clean your equipment with MEK. Heat cure @ 200* for 2 hrs.

 

I've used them all. I dont think one is really any better than another but DuraCoate is in my experience the easiest to use.

Your BBQ works great if it wont fit in your oven

[macaholic 5]

You can use Norrell's Mollycoat over a base of K-Phos with no problems.

I use 2400 series GunKote because of it's extra durability, abrasion resistance,flex properties and more color selection (I mostly use flat black). 1600 adds more lubricating properties, but I've never used it. I used 2300 in the past but changed to 2400 because of the attributes listed above.

 

 

Thanks for that info Matchgrade. It's beginning to look like I'm going to use either Molly or KG gunkoat. The more I learn about some of the new products from KG Industries, the more I like thier line of spray bake finishes. Don't get me wrong though, I have been useing Johns Molly resin for years and it's a superb product, it's just that I like to go with one brand if I choose to use a certain product like KG guncoat. I kind of like what I'm seeing in the 1600 series and the K phos looks to be the product that addresses the adheasion problem I've encountered in the past with spray bake finishes.

Edited December 24, 2010 by macaholic