Atlantic Firearms has 10 S-12's as of 7am March 16. $739

[Atlantic Firearms.com 170]

Bridis , no problem the whole Saiga 12 deal stinks but there are a few things at work here , the market was slow on the S12 for the last 8 months so the importer was not bringing many of them in and wholesalers were not sitting on huge inventory levels. Within 3 days of the ATF talking about the possible ban most of the US inventory at the wholesalers was gobbled up or had jumped $100 bucks per gun .The importer only got a few more into the country on a already pre approved Import Form 6 but with the demand most firms only got a handful .Since then the ATF has not approved more Form 6 imports until they complete their STUDY so their is no official ban in place but yet no other shipments are coming into the US. Their may still be 1 pre approved shipment that could possibly arrive but nobody knows for sure the Russians are aware of the demand and trying to raise prices on the incoming shipment . They just tried to jump the price on the Vepr rifles by $70 per unit & claimed it was because of the increased cost of fuel.

[Hudson Hornet 40]

Anyway, does anyone think the "Study" will result in a ban? Have the imports actually stopped? If it does not, maybe prices will go down again.

[chaseface 41]

You guys think around 800 is bad??? I walked into a local gun shop in northern california because my buddy said his "gun guy" had some really cool stuff in stock. I saw a S12 on the wall and asked how much they were selling for and he said $1400 bucks!!!! He also said that he would not order the Kimber 1911 i was wanting to get because he didnt like their "customer service" now thats ironic.

[chaseface 41]

Also does anybody know an online vender that will ship a Saiga 12 to california (with a bullet button of course). I just contacted Atlantic Firearms and they are all sold out. Thanks. And K-var does not ship to california

Edited March 20, 2011 by chaseface

[Dad2142Dad 6,559]

Anyway, does anyone think the "Study" will result in a ban? Have the imports actually stopped? If it does not, maybe prices will go down again.

 

 

Only Eric Holder knows the answer

[lbsrdi 1,078]

Don't remind me.^^

[volkov 318]

I realize how supply and demand works.

 

 

No. You don't. Supply and demand means that the price is set where the supply curve meets the demand curve. If the supply is significantly low and demand is significantly high, the price rises.. If one merchant doesn't reach the new fair price they will be bought out and resold by a merchant at the actual market price. If Atlantic sold them for 500 (regardless of how they were aquired) somebody would buy all 10 shotguns in one go and mark them up a few hundred to capitalize on the price the market allows- unless you were very fast, you wouldn't have a chance to get one at this undervalued price regardless. It's an equation, not an ethics question.

 

In other words, a merchant that underprices will not be able to keep stock very long, and likely not long enough for their customers to get ahold of them and be satisfied.

Edited March 21, 2011 by volkov

[AK_Fanatic_N_AZ 6]

Bridis , no problem the whole Saiga 12 deal stinks but there are a few things at work here , the market was slow on the S12 for the last 8 months so the importer was not bringing many of them in and wholesalers were not sitting on huge inventory levels. Within 3 days of the ATF talking about the possible ban most of the US inventory at the wholesalers was gobbled up or had jumped $100 bucks per gun .The importer only got a few more into the country on a already pre approved Import Form 6 but with the demand most firms only got a handful .Since then the ATF has not approved more Form 6 imports until they complete their STUDY so their is no official ban in place but yet no other shipments are coming into the US. Their may still be 1 pre approved shipment that could possibly arrive but nobody knows for sure the Russians are aware of the demand and trying to raise prices on the incoming shipment . They just tried to jump the price on the Vepr rifles by $70 per unit & claimed it was because of the increased cost of fuel.

 

 

That's good info to know...thanks Atlantic!

[bigmegina 3]

finally some info from a big outfit that makes sence.

[Bridis 319]

 

No. You don't. Supply and demand means that the price is set where the supply curve meets the demand curve. If the supply is significantly low and demand is significantly high, the price rises.. If one merchant doesn't reach the new fair price they will be bought out and resold by a merchant at the actual market price. If Atlantic sold them for 500 (regardless of how they were aquired) somebody would buy all 10 shotguns in one go and mark them up a few hundred to capitalize on the price the market allows- unless you were very fast, you wouldn't have a chance to get one at this undervalued price regardless. It's an equation, not an ethics question.

 

In other words, a merchant that underprices will not be able to keep stock very long, and likely not long enough for their customers to get ahold of them and be satisfied.

 

Look dude, I understand completely. Maybe it is you who doesn't understand what I am saying.

 

1. A vendor could control distribution by limiting the quantities sold to individual buyers to insure a wider distribution.

2. Vendors don't buy guns to hold onto them. So raising the price to keep stock doesn't make sense.

3. Vendors know what a reasonable profit is. Charging above that isn't an honorable business practice in my opinion.

 

Now you can choose to disagree with we me. I'm fine with that. But don't tell me I don't understand.

[Koljec 37]

. It's an equation, not an ethics question.

 

 

 

It most certainly is an ethics question when demand is being manipulated with false marketing.

[lbsrdi 1,078]

I bought one in 08 with a $699 sticker price( the sticker is still on my factory mag). I worked my magic and got it for less, but I probably would have paid more because I wanted it. People pay more for a DPMS AR, makes no sense to me. Which one do you think is worth more? If you say the DPMS, I disagree. Prices fluctuate, just be patient if you want a couple more S12's. It seems pretty basic to me, please correct me if I am wrong; supply is low, demand is off the charts. I know it sucks but 'whataya gonna do'? Do I wish I would have bought more when they were cheap? Ofcourse! I also wish I would have bought more stock when the market crashed. I did buy enough to put a big smile on my face. So go shoot your Saigas you do have and be happy! Prices will go back down.

[cc raider 0]

In this day and age why do vendors/distributers brokers/ middle men even exist? Why not be able to buy our guns direct considering these companies rarely offer even the simplilist of costumer service? We web surfers do the research while these salesmen do is take our info and ship our product. I'm all for a free market but don't care for the many hands that get to dip in the pot of gold!

[Boomstick12 11]

As a lurker and first time poster, I must say, mods like Juggernaut are not helpful, and have no business being mods. I feel he shows obvious favoritism. Look at what he did in this thread. He banned the guy who was totally correct and left the guy who was wrong alone. It's obvious why banned guy was being a dick, the other guy was being a moron. And the other guy called him stupid first.

 

ANd I was lurking another thread where Juggernat (i think) called another guy a name, the guy pointed out that was against the rules, and Juggernat banned him for thirty days. THis Juggernat guy is a bully and not condusive to noobs. The people who own this place really need to review the actions of this guy, especially since he keeps around people like biris who are bashing vendors.

 

I'm sure I'll get banned for this, but it'll just prove my point.

[gregomega 929]

As a lurker and first time poster, I must say, mods like Juggernaut are not helpful, and have no business being mods. I feel he shows obvious favoritism. Look at what he did in this thread. He banned the guy who was totally correct and left the guy who was wrong alone. It's obvious why banned guy was being a dick, the other guy was being a moron. And the other guy called him stupid first.

 

ANd I was lurking another thread where Juggernat (i think) called another guy a name, the guy pointed out that was against the rules, and Juggernat banned him for thirty days. THis Juggernat guy is a bully and not condusive to noobs. The people who own this place really need to review the actions of this guy, especially since he keeps around people like biris who are bashing vendors.

 

I'm sure I'll get banned for this, but it'll just prove my point.

 

Thats funny, I dont remember Juggernaut or any of the other mods bullying me or seeing any of the stuff you're talking about when I was a newbie. Since ive been here, ive tried to respect my elders/others and if I dont have anything nice to say, then I dont say anything at all and move on. Trolling people is a good way to get suspended. pfft, I learned that in 1st grade I think. Lately I see more and more newbies who fail to read, start the same S12 ATF ban topics over and over to where it drives the whole forum batsh*t crazy. Hes a regulater who does his job well IMO. I personally like to enjoy a topic of interest without negative comments and try to give the same courtesy to others.

Edited March 24, 2011 by AZG

[lbsrdi 1,078]

I have to admit that the personal battles and name calling annoy me. If you have a problem don't air it out for all to see, just go to fight club and have a ball, this section is specifically for questions and information about the Saiga12 shotgun, not pissing contests and pety arguments.

[chaseface 41]

What the hell does this have anything to do with the thread. Take your complaint to the proper place, start your own thread or go to fight club there is no need to crap all over this one

 

As a lurker and first time poster, I must say, mods like Juggernaut are not helpful, and have no business being mods. I feel he shows obvious favoritism. Look at what he did in this thread. He banned the guy who was totally correct and left the guy who was wrong alone. It's obvious why banned guy was being a dick, the other guy was being a moron. And the other guy called him stupid first.

 

ANd I was lurking another thread where Juggernat (i think) called another guy a name, the guy pointed out that was against the rules, and Juggernat banned him for thirty days. THis Juggernat guy is a bully and not condusive to noobs. The people who own this place really need to review the actions of this guy, especially since he keeps around people like biris who are bashing vendors.

 

I'm sure I'll get banned for this, but it'll just prove my point.

[Mr. Scratch 91]

Look dude, I understand completely. Maybe it is you who doesn't understand what I am saying.

 

1. A vendor could control distribution by limiting the quantities sold to individual buyers to insure a wider distribution.

2. Vendors don't buy guns to hold onto them. So raising the price to keep stock doesn't make sense.

3. Vendors know what a reasonable profit is. Charging above that isn't an honorable business practice in my opinion.

 

Now you can choose to disagree with we me. I'm fine with that. But don't tell me I don't understand.

 

1. It is a lot easier and cheaper to sell, package and ship widgets all in one bunch to a small handful of buyers than it is to sell them individually to hundreds of single buyers. This is why they act as distributors as well as retailers. Again, Atlantic is in the business of selling guns; not a social welfare organization concerned about the even distribution of their wares.

 

2. They're not raising prices to hold onto stock. They're raising prices to either cover their rising expenses or to make more profit. The assumption is that these guns will sell at the higher price. They're only "holding onto stock" if people don't buy them at that price. My bet is that they eventually will sell them for the price they've charged, but who knows? It's a gamble on their part.

 

3. For one, you don't know what they're paying for this latest supply of S12s, so you don't know what their profits are. But in any case, it doesn't matter what they paid or whether you think it is "honorable" for them to maximize their profit. What counts is whether or not the end buyer considers the price for the honestly-stated product to be worth it.

 

Watch Antiques Roadshow sometime. You'll see a bunch of people who bought something for $5 at a garage sale, only to find that they can resell it for several thousand times that. They aren't being "dishonorable" by not selling it at no more than a 50% mark-up. They are just taking advantage of an unexpectedly high market for an item they happen to have bought cheaply.

 

 

Hey, if you didn't manage to get an S12 before the prices got ridiculous, I'm sorry. That's the way the market goes. I would have liked to have purchased a bunch of Apple stock back in the mid 90s when the company was on it's knees. But I missed the boat, and maybe so did you. It sucks, but it's pointless to go around blaming the guy behind the counter for the direction the market has pushed his prices.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Mr. Scratch

[Hudson Hornet 40]

As a lurker and first time poster, I must say, mods like Juggernaut are not helpful, and have no business being mods. I feel he shows obvious favoritism. Look at what he did in this thread. He banned the guy who was totally correct and left the guy who was wrong alone. It's obvious why banned guy was being a dick, the other guy was being a moron. And the other guy called him stupid first.

 

ANd I was lurking another thread where Juggernat (i think) called another guy a name, the guy pointed out that was against the rules, and Juggernat banned him for thirty days. THis Juggernat guy is a bully and not condusive to noobs. The people who own this place really need to review the actions of this guy, especially since he keeps around people like biris who are bashing vendors.

 

I'm sure I'll get banned for this, but it'll just prove my point.

We are guests here! Do not look a gift horse in the mouth!

[Dandiesel 16]

As a lurker and first time poster, I must say, mods like Juggernaut are not helpful, and have no business being mods. I feel he shows obvious favoritism. Look at what he did in this thread. He banned the guy who was totally correct and left the guy who was wrong alone. It's obvious why banned guy was being a dick, the other guy was being a moron. And the other guy called him stupid first.

 

ANd I was lurking another thread where Juggernat (i think) called another guy a name, the guy pointed out that was against the rules, and Juggernat banned him for thirty days. THis Juggernat guy is a bully and not condusive to noobs. The people who own this place really need to review the actions of this guy, especially since he keeps around people like biris who are bashing vendors.

 

I'm sure I'll get banned for this, but it'll just prove my point.

.....^^ Probably ^^ someone who is just angry over being banned and started a new account just to annoy everyone. DO NOT CRAP ON A PERFECTLY GOOD THREAD NEWBY!!!! Please read the forum rules and take stuff like this to the fight club.

 

Thanks Atlantic for shedding a little light on the current saiga 12 situation.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Dandiesel

[Bridis 319]

it's pointless to go around blaming the guy behind the counter for the direction the market has pushed his prices.

 

If someone is selling something that isn't priced fairly, that isn't the market's fault.

[raleighsaiga 81]

If someone is selling something that isn't priced fairly, that isn't the market's fault.

 

If someone is selling something that isn't price fairly, then nobody will buy it.

 

I understand people's frustration with rapid price rises during times of shortage for things they love to buy, but the "fair" in "fair market value" is determined solely by how much people are willing to pay for something, NOT by how cheap a vendor is willing to sell something. When you have a LOT of people willing to pay the same price, as is obviously the case with the current prices of Saigas, you just don't have a legitimate case to make that anything unfair is going on.

 

The fears are legitimate. The supply shortage is legitimate. The demand surge is legitimate. Therefore, the rapid rise in price is legitimate.

 

I'm not happy about it, either, but I'm not mad at vendors for it, even if they have been able to double their margins because of this. If you want prices to be based upon what is best for the COMMUNE rather than what is best for the CAPITALIST, this is not the country for you. The words in caps should point the way to the irony I see in threads like these on forums that are typically pretty far right on the political spectrum as a whole.

[themadride 3]

Look dude, I understand completely. Maybe it is you who doesn't understand what I am saying.

 

1. A vendor could control distribution by limiting the quantities sold to individual buyers to insure a wider distribution.

2. Vendors don't buy guns to hold onto them. So raising the price to keep stock doesn't make sense.

3. Vendors know what a reasonable profit is. Charging above that isn't an honorable business practice in my opinion.

 

Now you can choose to disagree with we me. I'm fine with that. But don't tell me I don't understand.

 

Actually, you really don't understand. No business establishment ever wants to have an empty shelf or a "sold out" sign. It makes both practical and theoretical sense to raise prices to keep stock. Practically, a business wants to find EQUILIBRIUM between price and supply. If selling them at $300 causes you to be sold out for a month, selling them at $900 causes you to still have excess inventory when you get more supply, then you would want to sell at $600 to allow your stock to last as long as it takes to get new inventory. A retail establishment is going to price stock to match demand SO THAT IT HAS SOMETHING TO OFFER.

 

Now, theoretically it also better to have something priced higher on par with demand because it gives the consumer freedom. You act as if the guns were priced very cheaply you would some how benefit from that. Not the case. They would just be sold out THAT MUCH FASTER. Pricing the inventory to where fewer people are willing to purchase it allows the consumer to make a choice: "How much will I pay for a product that is available" instead of..."No products are available"

 

Lastly, all the people that are asking for a way to lower demand should champion the higher prices. The Pricing mechanism is the tool that keeps demand in check. When facing either price increases or shortages you should choose the former. Would you rather pay $4 per gallon of gas but fill your tank, or be guaranteed $2 per gallon but wait in line for an hour to get your daily 5 gallon limit?

 

 

 

 

. It's an equation, not an ethics question.

 

 

 

It most certainly is an ethics question when demand is being manipulated with false marketing.

 

The purpose of marketing is to drive up demand. Now, if you mean that there is dishonest marketing, then that is a crime. Not only unethical, but illegal. However, there is nothing wrong or unethical about using marketing to drive demand. That's the whole point. I'm not sure what you mean by "FALSE marketing"?

Edited March 24, 2011 by themadride

[chaseface 41]

God some people take a college economics course and think they know everything

[Atlantic Firearms.com 170]

Prices will only continue to rise on the Saiga 12's that already have import approval we expect the standard price will be $750 -$799 range before it all settles out . If they do not decide on a import ban prices will come down but they will probaly not go back to $499.00 like we were offering this past summer .As a wholesaler & retailer we would much rather have lower prices but a steady & smooth market & supply than crazy prices , out of control demand and limited supply it is not good for our blood pressure !!!

[bigmegina 3]

Atlantic Firearms

 

+1

[Bridis 319]

 

Actually, you really don't understand.

 

Actually I do understand. I'm not arguing a businesses right to a market baring profit. If the supply is low or their costs go up, the buyers price will increase. But some vendors go to far. Those are the ones that I don't like or do business with. They are the assholes that will look an uninformed buyer in the face and tell him a $500.00 gun is worth $1000.00, and smile while doing it. Now you feel free to snuggle on up to that guy and justify his actions with some rudimentary impromptu economics BS if you want. Just don't complain when he screws you without lube.

[csmw 98]

It sucks that the prices are going up, but it is what it is. It's only a couple/few hundred bucks...that kind of money is easily forgotten over time.

If I didn't have one, I would pay the current pricing just to be on the safe side, but that's just me.

 

imho, this is the most badass fun gun....if they had entered the country at $750-$800, I still would have bought one and been happy with it.

[bigmegina 3]

i know a guy who just ordered a kel tec 14 rd pump 12 ga for $900.s12 much better gun for less money even now.

[raleighsaiga 81]

God some people take a college economics course and think they know everything

 

A high school economics course is all that is needed to understand what is going on here, and yet others have multiple economics degrees from Wharton and Fuqua. The fact that you will have to use Google to even know who those schools are should tell you something...

 

Honestly, I understand the frustration of Bridis and others. Heck, this frustration is human nature. Imagine if this shortage wasn't just about Saigas, but started to happen to cars and lumber and supplies you needed to earn your paycheck. Only the wealthy can afford to buy anything, and thus, they end up controlling the economy, while those without enough money end up beholden to them just to eke out a living.

 

Then, someone comes along and says, "It is wrong for businesses to charge so much more than their actual costs just because there is a shortage and others are willing and able to pay the inflated prices. We demand FAIR prices, based upon what these goods COST, and not what the market will bear." The growing lower classes, suffering while watching the wealthy flourish, would find such a message very attractive- attractive enough to elevate this person to a position of power. With that power, that person then forces businesses to price based upon cost, yet, not all of the businesses are willing to do so. So, that person takes over those businesses and throws their owners into prison for violating the new law.... yada, yada, yada.

 

Anyway, you see the point. The feelings being expressed in all of these threads here and in other gun forums at different times are universal, and it is exactly how communism spread throughout Eastern Europe, and later, socialism in Western Europe.