oceanrover 1 Posted April 10, 2011 Report Share Posted April 10, 2011 Thanks Bridis, watching video 1 right now for the 7th time I hope that (step 5) will get clarified as others don't start drilling on the ejector unnecessarily...... Or ?? Where are you Tom Cole Jump in on this thread Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dgyver 13 Posted April 10, 2011 Report Share Posted April 10, 2011 There is a rivet that is cut through when the eject block is modified. You can see 1 head of the rivet on the right side, the other head is under the sight rail on the left. The left side is captured but the right side could walk out. I drilled a small hole and inserted a roll pin, then peened over the lip of the hole so it cannot walk up Here is a link from another thread showing the rivet pulled out. http://forum.saiga-1...attach_id=54056 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oceanrover 1 Posted April 10, 2011 Report Share Posted April 10, 2011 Great! Thanks dgyver. Resuming my install now and will revert. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oceanrover 1 Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 Well the ABHO or LRBHO is in minus the spring but still more trimming to do. I am attempting to check function of Bolt Hold Open portion and it will not lock bolt back when manipulated. Where and how does the BHO lock the bolt? I don't want to trim in the wrong place or places. Here is a pic of my progress. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oceanrover 1 Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 Pics to large will do 1 at a time. Here is the bolt grove, As stated in previous post I cut the ejector with a Mill File only took abot 20 min the file is a littel more then an 1/8 and made a clean cut. For the Bolt I again used a small 1/16 dimond file. May still need tweaking as I progress. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oceanrover 1 Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 Pic of the Receiver widened a bit for ABHO for fitment. Once all is dialed in I will cut excess and drill receiver to have button on the side. That will be my last step. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dgyver 13 Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 Well the ABHO or LRBHO is in minus the spring but still more trimming to do. I am attempting to check function of Bolt Hold Open portion and it will not lock bolt back when manipulated. Where and how does the BHO lock the bolt? I don't want to trim in the wrong place or places. Here is a pic of my progress. The spring lifts the back of the LRBHO up to the rail. During a cycle... The bolt carrier goes backwards over top of it, pressing the LRBHO downwards then it lifts up after the carrier is past. When the carrier starts forward, the LRBHO is in the way. If round is in the mag, which raises the HB, the back of the LRBHO is lowered allowing the carrier to pass. If no round is present, the HB is down and the carrier is stopped. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted April 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 (edited) The red arrow is pointing at the area of the LRBHO that engages the bolt carrier. The section of the LRBHO that I have marked yellow needs to rise higher towards the rail that I have marked in blue. To get the LRBHO to rise higher in the rear, you'll need to remove more material from the #5 red area. Edited April 11, 2011 by Bridis Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oceanrover 1 Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 Well the ABHO or LRBHO is in minus the spring but still more trimming to do. I am attempting to check function of Bolt Hold Open portion and it will not lock bolt back when manipulated. Where and how does the BHO lock the bolt? I don't want to trim in the wrong place or places. Here is a pic of my progress. The spring lifts the back of the LRBHO up to the rail. During a cycle... The bolt carrier goes backwards over top of it, pressing the LRBHO downwards then it lifts up after the carrier is past. When the carrier starts forward, the LRBHO is in the way. If round is in the mag, which raises the HB, the back of the LRBHO is lowered allowing the carrier to pass. If no round is present, the HB is down and the carrier is stopped. Do I have to have spring in to manipulate by hand to lock the bolt back? The reason I ask is it is not locking back now so it must needs trimming somewhere. I guess the bottom of the LRBHO that contacts the receiver floor? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dgyver 13 Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 You can operate it manully without the spring, which is best during fitting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted April 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 The BHO spring is needed if you're not manually simulating the operation of the LRBHO when cycling your gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oceanrover 1 Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 The red arrow is pointing at the area of the LRBHO that engages the bolt carrier. The section of the LRBHO that I have marked yellow needs to rise higher towards the rail that I have marked in blue. To get the LRBHO to rise higher in the rear, you'll need to remove more material from the #5 red area. Thanks for that! I remember seeing this before @#%& I'm removing from gun and trimming section 5. Glad I replaced the Dreaded Shepherds hook with the simple Retaining Plate Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted April 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 In my case the top/back (section marked yellow) of the LRBHO had to touch the underside of the bolt carrier rail to allow the LRBHO to engage the bolt carrier. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oceanrover 1 Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 (edited) I'm looking good on the Bolt Holding Open Now to fit for Mag and then cycle some rounds. While Bolt was apart for notching I reassembled leaving out The Firing pin as a safety...I don't have any "Inert Rounds" as per Toms Instructions. Still looking thicker then most on the HB will see how it goes I'm just trimming a little at a time . Thanks again for the advice. Edited April 11, 2011 by Oceanrover Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NewSaigaFan 1 Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 So.. I just skimmed all 8 pages of this thread... Am I the only one that thinks it's beyond insane to pay $75 for a couple bits of metal that are only more or less in the shape of a functional BHO device for this gun? That if you buy the retail product then actually have the nerve to want it to work, you need to re-make it yourself. Is it just me, or does paying $75 for these little bits imply that you aren't paying for materials, but rather the R&D that went into coming up with the functional shape? This does NOT seem like a release product!!! This seems like something that should have been sent to Tony, MD, Others, to tweak before even being kind of released to real customers! I'm glad as hell I didn't order one! If this is the idea of a release product, I'll wait for Gen4 or 5 before even considering buying one. This would NEVER fly in AR world... Why is it even kind of acceptable here? 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
one2za 7 Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 Free product development by willing workers. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted April 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 So.. I just skimmed all 8 pages of this thread... Am I the only one that thinks it's beyond insane to pay $75 for a couple bits of metal that are only more or less in the shape of a functional BHO device for this gun? That if you buy the retail product then actually have the nerve to want it to work, you need to re-make it yourself. Is it just me, or does paying $75 for these little bits imply that you aren't paying for materials, but rather the R&D that went into coming up with the functional shape? This does NOT seem like a release product!!! This seems like something that should have been sent to Tony, MD, Others, to tweak before even being kind of released to real customers! I'm glad as hell I didn't order one! If this is the idea of a release product, I'll wait for Gen4 or 5 before even considering buying one. This would NEVER fly in AR world... Why is it even kind of acceptable here? I does seem like a lot of material needs to be removed to get the LRBHO to work. But then again it's impossible know how much of the extra material would be needed in a different gun. Because AKs are built with such a loose tolerance. Besides some people enjoy working on guns and sharing their progress. You should also know that Tom with CGW does offer installation services. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dgyver 13 Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 I would love to have a machined receiver like my AR, but that is not the case. Tight tolerances are very difficult to hold with stamping. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NewSaigaFan 1 Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 Tight tolerances are very difficult to hold with stamping. I do stamping at my day job and that sentence is bullshit. The AK is loose because it's loose, not specifically because it's stamped. My MP5 is stamped and it's every bit of spec where I've measured it. What I'm saying is this product should have a giant fucking Professional Install Only warning all over it. I think Tony's non-comment on page one was absolutely appropriate. I'll wait until someone can make a proper shaped product, or have at least decent instructions for exactly how to modify. Very glad I read this thread. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dgyver 13 Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 How tight do you maintain tolerances? Here we maintain stamping tolerances of .002-.003". 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NewSaigaFan 1 Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 (edited) How tight do you maintain tolerances? Here we maintain stamping tolerances of .002-.003". Depends if we're crash forming or using three part dies. The metal at my day job is 3/16 thick over 6 feet or 16ga over 10feet in some applications we're holding enough that if we made a receiver it would be well within .003 with stretch and elastic pull. Likewise, my MP5 is supposed to be 20mm ID on the main tube iirc and it's dead nuts on. Dude, if you think this CSW part is causing a HOW TO MODIFY TO MAKE WORK thread of 8 pages long over .003 you're nuts. Judging on the posts written here , it looks to me like this part is .100" off if not damn near it. From what I can tell, these units for sale are at best a prototype part. If they were $25 I would understand. But $75 to have to do this much tinkering is crazy talk. Edited April 11, 2011 by NewSaigaFan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oceanrover 1 Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 Tight tolerances are very difficult to hold with stamping. I do stamping at my day job and that sentence is bullshit. The AK is loose because it's loose, not specifically because it's stamped. My MP5 is stamped and it's every bit of spec where I've measured it. What I'm saying is this product should have a giant fucking Professional Install Only warning all over it. I think Tony's non-comment on page one was absolutely appropriate. I'll wait until someone can make a proper shaped product, or have at least decent instructions for exactly how to modify. Very glad I read this thread. The Saga 12 is a fantastic Shotgun. I've always wanted a LRBHO from day 1 back when I got my first in 2005 and now I have 3 S12's , I have the patents, tools to see this work on one of them and that will be great for me. Also we have a great forum here to assist in the progress that is also great for me and many S12 fans, and you for finding this thread that gave you and others the option before attempting something that may be beyond your capabilities. I have a Saiga 7.62 that I really enjoy shooting as I do my AR 15, all are different with different characteristics but I really love my S12's. With that said I can tell you all 3 are not built alike and the mod will not be interchangeable. I would hope a better option comes along such as a drop in LRBHO but it took me 7 years to get this one, for what it is $70 is fine with me. So I guess you can wait and see what comes along, maybe Tony is working on one but I doubt it. lol This mod is not as difficult as it sounds once the initial cuts are made that can be reversed if needed (weld, patch hole's etc) and the bolt will still work fine with the notch. Then it just gets down to fine tuning the metal for fitment, I have so far spent about 8 hours on mine and will most likely spend many more as I do with the 68 SS Camaro or the K1300 BMW AR etc................................................ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dgyver 13 Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 Sad part of these post they go against the initial intent of helping trying to make each others gun better. How they were made in Russia or how any of us think they should have been made is irrelevant. They are what they are, which they are different enough. I do agree that the lack of instructions is unexceptable in some applications. More upfront knowledge would have been nice. I have done other gunsmithing with no instructions or available advice. At least there are people here willing to help each other. As for the price, it is reasonable for what is being provided. Installation is available. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted April 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 I have had fun working on my S-12 and the LRBHO. It's has also tought me more about my gun. Granted there could have been better instruction, but look at it this way. Tom has been nice enough to sell us both options. Option 1: Buy the LRBHO without installation. Option 2: Buy the LRBHO with installation. Hell, he'll even let you screw it up and give you another one. What should really be considered is that this guy makes money installing these things and probably isn't ready to give up the money he could make doing so. It's up to you to decide. Do you buy installation or not? Simple if you ask me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
P lang 51 Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 Tight tolerances are very difficult to hold with stamping. I do stamping at my day job and that sentence is bullshit. The AK is loose because it's loose, not specifically because it's stamped. My MP5 is stamped and it's every bit of spec where I've measured it. What I'm saying is this product should have a giant fucking Professional Install Only warning all over it. I think Tony's non-comment on page one was absolutely appropriate. I'll wait until someone can make a proper shaped product, or have at least decent instructions for exactly how to modify. Very glad I read this thread. The Saga 12 is a fantastic Shotgun. I've always wanted a LRBHO from day 1 back when I got my first in 2005 and now I have 3 S12's , I have the patents, tools to see this work on one of them and that will be great for me. Also we have a great forum here to assist in the progress that is also great for me and many S12 fans, and you for finding this thread that gave you and others the option before attempting something that may be beyond your capabilities. I have a Saiga 7.62 that I really enjoy shooting as I do my AR 15, all are different with different characteristics but I really love my S12's. With that said I can tell you all 3 are not built alike and the mod will not be interchangeable. I would hope a better option comes along such as a drop in LRBHO but it took me 7 years to get this one, for what it is $70 is fine with me. So I guess you can wait and see what comes along, maybe Tony is working on one but I doubt it. lol This mod is not as difficult as it sounds once the initial cuts are made that can be reversed if needed (weld, patch hole's etc) and the bolt will still work fine with the notch. Then it just gets down to fine tuning the metal for fitment, I have so far spent about 8 hours on mine and will most likely spend many more as I do with the 68 SS Camaro or the K1300 BMW AR etc................................................ Sad part of these post they go against the initial intent of helping trying to make each others gun better. How they were made in Russia or how any of us think they should have been made is irrelevant. They are what they are, which they are different enough. I do agree that the lack of instructions is unexceptable in some applications. More upfront knowledge would have been nice. I have done other gunsmithing with no instructions or available advice. At least there are people here willing to help each other. As for the price, it is reasonable for what is being provided. Installation is available. I have had fun working on my S-12 and the LRBHO. It's has also tought me more about my gun. Granted there could have been better instruction, but look at it this way. Tom has been nice enough to sell us both options. Option 1: Buy the LRBHO without installation. Option 2: Buy the LRBHO with installation. Hell, he'll even let you screw it up and give you another one. What should really be considered is that this guy makes money installing these things and probably isn't ready to give up the money he could make doing so. It's up to you to decide. Do you buy installation or not? Simple if you ask me. im plus one with all of this , i agree that tom could have better outlined the base operating principals , but its great to see how many of the members here have a can do type attitude ,and for me personally i ,love this type stuff ,this is fun for me, probly the biggest reason why is this is my weapon , not just because i bought it, but because i built it , beyond the basic conversition . ive never had a weapon i enjoyed as much as this one and i have many ! just like oceanrover, same goes for my 86 chevy mud truck my sts caddy and my hot rod air compressor ,guess it just depends on how you were brought up ,,,'ME, WRENCHS FOREVER' 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crusader 64 Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 Tight tolerances are very difficult to hold with stamping. I do stamping at my day job and that sentence is bullshit. The AK is loose because it's loose, not specifically because it's stamped. My MP5 is stamped and it's every bit of spec where I've measured it. What I'm saying is this product should have a giant fucking Professional Install Only warning all over it. I think Tony's non-comment on page one was absolutely appropriate. I'll wait until someone can make a proper shaped product, or have at least decent instructions for exactly how to modify. Very glad I read this thread. The Saga 12 is a fantastic Shotgun. I've always wanted a LRBHO from day 1 back when I got my first in 2005 and now I have 3 S12's , I have the patents, tools to see this work on one of them and that will be great for me. Also we have a great forum here to assist in the progress that is also great for me and many S12 fans, and you for finding this thread that gave you and others the option before attempting something that may be beyond your capabilities. I have a Saiga 7.62 that I really enjoy shooting as I do my AR 15, all are different with different characteristics but I really love my S12's. With that said I can tell you all 3 are not built alike and the mod will not be interchangeable. I would hope a better option comes along such as a drop in LRBHO but it took me 7 years to get this one, for what it is $70 is fine with me. So I guess you can wait and see what comes along, maybe Tony is working on one but I doubt it. lol This mod is not as difficult as it sounds once the initial cuts are made that can be reversed if needed (weld, patch hole's etc) and the bolt will still work fine with the notch. Then it just gets down to fine tuning the metal for fitment, I have so far spent about 8 hours on mine and will most likely spend many more as I do with the 68 SS Camaro or the K1300 BMW AR etc................................................ Sad part of these post they go against the initial intent of helping trying to make each others gun better. How they were made in Russia or how any of us think they should have been made is irrelevant. They are what they are, which they are different enough. I do agree that the lack of instructions is unexceptable in some applications. More upfront knowledge would have been nice. I have done other gunsmithing with no instructions or available advice. At least there are people here willing to help each other. As for the price, it is reasonable for what is being provided. Installation is available. I have had fun working on my S-12 and the LRBHO. It's has also tought me more about my gun. Granted there could have been better instruction, but look at it this way. Tom has been nice enough to sell us both options. Option 1: Buy the LRBHO without installation. Option 2: Buy the LRBHO with installation. Hell, he'll even let you screw it up and give you another one. What should really be considered is that this guy makes money installing these things and probably isn't ready to give up the money he could make doing so. It's up to you to decide. Do you buy installation or not? Simple if you ask me. im plus one with all of this , i agree that tom could have better outlined the base operating principals , but its great to see how many of the members here have a can do type attitude ,and for me personally i ,love this type stuff ,this is fun for me, probly the biggest reason why is this is my weapon , not just because i bought it, but because i built it , beyond the basic conversition . ive never had a weapon i enjoyed as much as this one and i have many ! just like oceanrover, same goes for my 86 chevy mud truck my sts caddy and my hot rod air compressor ,guess it just depends on how you were brought up ,,,'ME, WRENCHS FOREVER' It's almost like the Saiga 12 is a Harley Davidson from the 1950's. People like them because they like working on them. This LRBHO has been by far the most fun conversion yet because Tom's instructions suck. As strange as that sounds it's true. We has to be inovative and rely on other member on the forum, which has been a very rewarding experiance for those who enjoy sharing their knowledge and those who rely on the experiance of other members. Tom hit the jack pot on this one Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MLM0358 107 Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 Answer to post #202 I found best solution to the follower problem is Self adhesive UHMW Polyethylene Strip 0.032" thick from Mc Master Carr part # 7701T111 $0.85 per foot. It sticks on great and is just the right thickness. This worked great and is low friction material. Thanks to whoever on this forum came up with the original idea of putting on the shim. This solved my failure to feed problem due to slightly changing feed angles from the follower rocking. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dgyver 13 Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 Answer to post #202 I found best solution to the follower problem is Self adhesive UHMW Polyethylene Strip 0.032" thick from Mc Master Carr part # 7701T111 $0.85 per foot. It sticks on great and is just the right thickness. This worked great and is low friction material. Thanks to whoever on this forum came up with the original idea of putting on the shim. This solved my failure to feed problem due to slightly changing feed angles from the follower rocking. Did you put it on the front or back of the follower? I need to fix mine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hobbyshooter 59 Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 shim the front. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted April 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 You couldn't help out with some pictures and the type of shim material you used, could ya? Thanks. BTW, how do you get the mag apart? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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