.45-70

[Vaarok 0]

Supposedly .410 and .45-70 are somehow compatable, so I wonder if somebody's dared try this?

[emclean 0]

it has been talked about here, dont knoe if it has been tryed.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Compatible, NO. No normal 410 can take the increased pressures and thus bolt force of a 45-70, even with original factory loadings.

 

But you're in luck. The Saiga-410 is NOT a naormal 45-70. The S-12 and S-20 had to have a larger space to feed their shells. No problem, because shotguns have lower pressures than even the intermediate AK rounds. But the 410 was able to use the trunion and bolt lug specs of the X39. That means that any round that an X39 bolt can hold the 410 can hold as well. And this includes the factory low pressure loading of 45-70.

 

Converting a S410 to 45-70 would require a new barrel, modification to the extractor, and a magazine, whether a modded S-410 or other.

 

I am aiming to do a different project. The 444 Marlin factory specs will result in the same bolt force as a standard X39 (less due to the straight walled case causing more friction against the chamber, but we'll just add that to the factor of safety.) This allows use of factory ammo at a higher pressure than the 45-70. Basically you can get a standard load with more power. Plus, the cartridges are much closer dimensionally to the original 410. So I'm pretty sure the same mags will work with the same capacity. You could handload to use heavier bullets, but DO NOT exceed SAAMI pressure specs.

 

With all that said in favor of the 444 conversion, the 45-70 conversion has been done already. I will probably be the first guy I've heard of to do the 444.

[dinzag 31]

Are dimensions of the .41 mag in the ballpark? Probably issues with cartridge length I suspect.

[Rusty 0]

41mag would probably blow the chamber apart. 45-70/410 is possible because the firearm manufacturer builds the rifle for a 45-70, and the 410 happens to be "close enough".

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Find me ONE rifle made for the 45-70 and 410. It's 45 Colt that some make to take 410 as well.

 

Some people have put 410s in a 45-70 but it isn't safe due to some dimensional differences.

 

What I don't understand is why they don't make a 454 Casull/45 Colt/410. S&W is expecting to come out with a 460 S&W round, designed for the new X-Frame revolver made for the 500. This round will be able to take 454 Casull and 45 Colt as well. One of them taking 410 as well would be SWEET.

 

Back to 410 conversions to rifle calibers, the smoothbore shotgun really isn't good for putting and rifle/pistol round in. Any conversion you'd do would need a rebarreling. If you did rebarrel, though, 44 Rem Mag would probably be a far better candidate than the 41. The 41 is good for being able to do much of what a 44 does with lower recoil in a handgun. In a rifle, 44 really ain't bad. Barrels and ammo would be easier to find AND cheaper.

 

444 Marlin is going as far as anyone ever should with the Saiga 410, and makes a lot of assumptions about its strength. 44 Rem Mag leaves a much more substantial factor of safety. I'd recommend it as the best rifle caliber rebarreling for a Saiga 410. Only problem you'll have is finding a good magazine for it. DE mags are an option.

[Rusty 0]

Doh... You're right. I had a brain fart. It was 45LC/410 that H&R ships in their "Survivor" series of rifles.

[shotgun_lobotomy 0]

as a guy who owns a few 45/70govs i have to remind ya if u try this only use normal factory loads, the 45/70 can be loaded to evil proportions and u have to watch for that, most normal factory loads are made to work in any gun, so they tend to be low pressure as the older guns just cant take much, but todays newer guns can take em loaded HOT so some companies have started makeing dangerous loads

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Bingo! You are right on. One reason I'm going for the 444 instead, so that the factory loads would be higher while still safe for the gun. Hot loaded 45-70s are a bad idea for any such conversion.

[Bravo 26 2]

Bingo!  You are right on.  One reason I'm going for the 444 instead, so that the factory loads would be higher while still safe for the gun.  Hot loaded 45-70s are a bad idea for any such conversion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So any thoughts on mag solutions for the 444 on the S-410 platform, G3?

[BattleRifleG3 16]

The original mag seems close enough to be the best choice. That's one reason I decided on the 444.

[Bravo 26 2]

The original mag seems close enough to be the best choice.  That's one reason I decided on the 444.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sweet. that's what I was hoping to hear, I wonder how many 444 shells we can squeeze into the 410 10rnd mags?

 

I'll start this project in sept, after my USAS-12 mag conversion stuff...maybe we can compare notes if you are plannin to work on yours too this year...Now I gotta go and find me a 410, and a 444 barrel....sigh..the wife's gonna kill me.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

I used Marlin 336 35 Rem barrels from Numrich on my previous rebarreling project. I'm debating between Marlin and Winchester and would be ever so thankful if someone could help to tell which would be a better choice.

 

Now I must make it clear that I haven't done this yet and am going to punch some serious numbers before going ahead. I'm insanely cautious about this and I have a mechanical engineering degree. Stuffing 444 Marlin into a 410 shotgun is no simple matter and if I do it I darned well better be right. I wouldn't mind knowing the extent of your science education so I know how to best communicate.

 

As far as magazine capacity... if they're so close that they fit, they'll probably take up the same amount of space per round.

[Embermage 1]

Cobray did make a 410/45-70 Street Sweeper model as a pistol. Curious though, did anyone ever finish converting one of the Saiga's to 45-70?

[Sdustin 578]

I think tromix or someone as done a .444 marlin conversion.

 

I once asked about an ak in 35 rem. And in silencertalkni was told that saiga had at one point listed a .35 rem in a catalog.

[JESS1344 508]

GUYS,

I THINK THAT MR. RUMORE DID ONE IN 375JDJ, WHICH IS THE .444 NECKED DOWN; PRETTY IMPRESSIVE BALLISTICS.

 

GOT THE FEELIN' YOU'LL BE HUNTING FOR AN EFFICIENT MUZZLE BRAKE.

 

JESS1344

[Sdustin 578]

Freaking woe I just noticed the thread is over 6 Years old. Embermage what the hell?

[TonyRumore 1,332]

Yeah, this is a very old thread. 45-70 won't fit in the magazine. 444 Marlin will.

 

I converted one .410 to .444 Marlin and one to .375/444 Marlin back in 2007/2008. Both remain in my private collection.

 

Tony Rumore

Tromix

[JESS1344 508]

MR. RUMORE,

PLEASE, TELL US MORE, HOW WELL DID IT WORK OUT?

 

JESS1344

[JESS1344 508]

GUYS,

CAN YOU IMAGINE AN S-410 CONVERTED TO 375JDJ, AND AN SGM 15 ROUNDER FULLA THAT STUFF, WITH SPARES ON YOUR BELT, LIKE THE OLD 10 MAG BAR BELT?

 

TALK ABOUT A JACKHAMMER......................LET ME TODDLE OFF TO BED, HOPEFULLY TO DREAM S-375JDJ DREAMS....

 

JESS1344;~)))

[dubya 198]

I'd be PLENTY happy with a .444! Talk about a bear hunting machine.

[JESS1344 508]

DUBYA,

CHECK THE BALLISTICS TABLES ON THE 375JDJ, YOU MIGHT CHANGE YOUR MIND.

 

JESS1344;~))

[cguiro 29]

While ur at it why not convert a s12 to a 50 bewolf

[gunfun 3,931]

Yeah, this is a very old thread. 45-70 won't fit in the magazine. 444 Marlin will.

 

I converted one .410 to .444 Marlin and one to .375/444 Marlin back in 2007/2008. Both remain in my private collection.

 

Tony Rumore

Tromix

 

I was just going to say that it's been done, but you just have to lead every curve.

[ShadowFire 220]

Since .45 Colt is the parent casing for the .460 Magnum, I wonder if you can convert the .410 to .460 Magnum.

[JESS1344 508]

SHADOWFIRE,

I HAVEN'T TAKEN THE TIME TO LOOK UP THE CHAMBER PRESSURES ON THE .460, BUT YOU MAY BE ENTERING INTO THE AREA WHERE CHAMBER PRESSURES COULD PRESENT A PROBLEM.

 

I KNOW THE .454 RUNS 60,000 ON THE TOP END.

 

JESS1344

[ShadowFire 220]

Understood. I'm not itching to try anything crazy just yet but I'm just throwing the idea out there as a possible alternative.

 

 

The basic dimensions of the new .460 Magnum are as follows: bullet diameter .454", rim diameter .520", case diameter .478", overall case length 1.800", cartridge overall length (COL) 2.300". The official SAAMI maximum average pressure (MAP) is 65,000 psi!

 

Source: http://www.chuckhawks.com/460_SW_Mag.htm

 

 

(Edit: And I can tell you that sucker has some thump too, I own a S&W 460V pistol. See my gallery for the pic.)

Edited April 14, 2013 by ShadowFire

[JESS1344 508]

SHADOWFIRE,

NEVER FIRED A .460, BUT I CAN ONLY IMAGINE.

 

I DO HAVE A .454, BUT IT'S IN A RIFLE, A 20" BBL STAINLESS STEEL ROSSI COPY OF THE WINCHESTER '92.

 

I HAD THE STOCK RECOIL PAD REPLACED BY A LIMBSAVER NOT LONG AFTER PURCHASE.

 

I LOAD THE BARNES 225GR. XPB OVER 30.0GR. OF H110, AND I EXTRAPOLATE ITS VELOCITY TO BE IN THE NEIGHBOORHOOD OF 2200FPS, FROM THE 20" BBL.

 

SHOT A PIG A FEW YEARS BACK, PROBABLY 250LBS, CAUGHT IT RIGHT ON THE RIGHT SHOULDER JOINT, AND IT RANGED FORWARD AND EXITED THE NECK ABOUT 7-8" IN FRONT OF THE LEFT SHOULDER, AND KEPT ON TRUCKIN'.

 

IT WEREN'T NOTHIN' BUT UGLY BETWEEN ENTRY AND EXIT.

 

WHEN I HIT IT, IT JUST WENT COMPLETELY STIFF, LIKE YOU'D HOOKED 440V TO ITS NOSE AND NUTS AND THREW THE SWITCH; KEELED OVER, STIFF LEGGED ON ITS SIDE, STONE DEAD, DIDN'T FLIP-FLOP-TWITCH-JERK-SQUEAL OR NOTHIN', JUST DRT.

 

THE BULLET CLOSEST TO THE UNFIRED BULLET, FIRED FROM APPX. 20YDS.,

WENT THROUGH 2 2 1/2GAL. WATER JUGS, SET END-TO-END, KEPT GOING ANOTHER 25YDS. HIT THE TIRE WALL, AND BOUNCED BACK APPX. 15YDS.

FROM THE SHOT, TO FINDING THE BULLET WAS APPX. 4 MINUTES, AND WHEN I WENT TO PICK UP THE BULLET, IT WAS STILL SO HOT, THAT IT ALMOST BLISTERED MY FINGERTIPS, AND I HAD TO DROP IT. NOT A FLUKE, AS THIS WAS OBSERVED AT A LATER DATE WITH WITNESSES, WITH US TOSSING THE RED-HOT BULLET BETWEEN THE THREE OF US, LIKE A HOT ROCK, UNTIL IT FINALLY COOLED DOWN.

ITS GOT TO BE SOMETHING WITH THE ALL COPPER CONSTRUCTION BEING SUCH A CONDUCTOR OF HEAT.

NOTICE THE HUGE HOLLOW POINT, YOU CAN LITERALLY DROP A BB IN IT AND ROLL IT AROUND.

THE BULLET, 2ND FROM LEFT WITH ALL PETALS INTACT, WAS OVER 28.0GR OF H110, AS I WAS WORKING MY WAY UP TO 30.0GR. OF H110.

Edited April 14, 2013 by JESS1344

[ShadowFire 220]

Nice yeah I've heard of a similar story with someone using one like mine (460V). 200 yards out, dude hit a wild hog with a .460 round (Old Magtech JHP round they used to make or maybe it was the Hornady, I don't remember.), sucker hit, expanded and blew out the back, in one shoulder and out the other, massive exit wound. She just dropped right on the spot, dead.

 

I like the speed demon rounds for the .460 myself. Heavier grain loads recoil like hell. You shoot heavier grain loads in .460 the best thing to do is grab it with both hands, lean in and let it recoil, you're not gonna control that much muzzle rise. lol

[JESS1344 508]

SHADOWFIRE,

THE BARNES ONLY LEFT THUMB-SIZED ENTRY AND EXIT WOUNDS, BUT IT SURE ROTO-ROOTED EVERYTHING IN ITS PATH IN BETWEEN.

 

JESS1344