No, not another one of THOSE threads

[BattleRifleG3 16]

I'm sure we all are absolutely sick and tired of all the crazy hi-cap mag threads filled with unfulfilled promises and a plethora of offers to buy huge quantities of mags.

 

So I'll keep this simple and request administrative removal of this thread if it goes anywhere bad.

 

Very few people seem to want to modify their own gun as I did. That's fine if they never told me otherwise.

 

Very few people want to produce hi-cap mags for the S-308 because making the plastic moulds is expensive.

 

Stamping steel, believe it or not, is not as easy as it looks. Doing it right takes a bit of R&D first and the stamping presses, like the plastic moulds are, you guessed it, expensive.

 

I have a simple solution. It would be perfectly feasible to make a working hi-cap mag for the Saiga-308. It's called machining. That's right, folks, I'm talking about milling out enough material out of billet aluminum to make a Saiga-308 hi-cap mag. The neat thing about machining is that even though it's tough, the same tool can do zillions of different jobs.

 

But that would be a lot of work for a single mag, right? Could it even be done right? Yes it could. Such mags could very well replicate the originals at least in function. They might even be a heck of a lot prettier. Another forum member did this for his S-12 a while back. He was talking about offering them for sale. Then folks screamed and cried that he's be responsible for a DD ruling. He backed out for that reason. I read the thread recently.

 

Well now that the ban is GONE and the only way an S-308 could be considered a DD would be if it was rebarreled to 20mm, this may be an option. Individually machined S-308 mags.

 

Really? Could it finally be? This can't be real... there must be a catch!

 

The catch is plain and simple - they wouldn't be cheap.

 

I'm talking the majority of $100 for a single 20rd mag. Yes, I'm serious. Something like $70-80 for a 20rd and $100 for a 30rd. Which is what folks are paying for my G3 mag adaptors ($80 for current orders, most likely to rise afterwards), which allows them to use $3 mags in as many quantities as they want.

 

Economical? Not if you can mod your own rifle. Don't want to mod your own rifle? Then here's your option.

 

NO, I am not promising anything of the sort. YES I can do it IF I can get my hands on an unconverted S-308 and magazine. That means costing me money. I lost quite a bit of money due to empty promises to buy magazine adaptors. At least I got a lot of tools out of it. But I CANNOT offer ANYTHING EVER AGAIN if people lead me on into failed investments.

 

So the simple question is, if a machined aluminum hi cap magazine were available, made to the correct specifications, and priced from $80-100 depending on capacity, would you buy one or more?

 

Simple answers. If your answer is no come right out and say it. I wouldn't buy them either at that price. I'd convert my own rifle to G3 mags. But I'm not you. I don't have this insane love for Saigas that moves me to make drastic promises of firstborns and...

 

So just give me a real answer. Yes or no. No hard feelings, just the truth.

 

BTW, machined polymer is a possibility. But I'm not experienced much with plastic so I can't vouch for its strength and it still wouldn't be much cheaper. Brass would be an option too for those who must have their bling.

Edited July 16, 2005 by BattleRifleG3

[Crosshair 1]

No offence, but wouldn't it be easier to finaly figure out how to modify Galil magazines. (Or any other kind of magazine) Yes the only cheap ones are the 12 round ones, but with regular Saiga mags going for $50 (check gunbroker.) You could get 12 round magazines for about $25, mod them and sell them for $45 ish. I would pay that for a 12 round magazine that worked. There is that gun supply place in England that has Saiga 308 mags for 22 pounds, mabee we could try and do a bulk order from their site? Again, I aplaud you're efforts, but unfortunatly I would have to say no to such an offer. In the end I may spring for a mag adapter though, only time will tell.

[IndyArms 10,186]

What about the potential for a frankenmag of a sort... I am just tossing this out as I havent even really THOUGHT About it other than the time for me to read the past two posts and then post THIS....

 

Could you machine the FEED PORTION out of something and then somehow ATTACH the longer G3 mag to THAT??....

 

high cap, G3 body with machined saiga attachment points/feedlip etc...

 

could it be done, could it be CHEAPER than a full machined mag??

 

Just a ???, just a thought....

 

 

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Here's the thing - The AKM action wasn't meant for the 308 round. The S-308 did some insanely creative stuff to get 308 to fit, and one thing they did was make a pretty funky mag. Making another mag fit in the S-308 well is just plain funky. Either you HAVE to modify the gun, or the mag has a lot of stuff hanging out and welded on haphazardly. One of the best ideas ever offered for a frankenmag was to glue together a factory Saiga mag and a thermold mag for a G3 or M14. But neither can be found much anymore.

 

All those other options are other subjects to discuss. This thread is quite specific in its purpose.

 

And regarding getting other mags to fit, it's been done, but very few people want to do what's necessary...

 

Frankenmags are not a bad idea. But you reach a point where you might as well go the whole way. Not that it would be a terrible idea, just not what I'm going for on this thread.

 

If THIS isn't what you want, just say no, and when everyone's had their say, we can let this thread die.

 

I am quite thankful for those who say no. They save me a lot of money.

Edited July 16, 2005 by BattleRifleG3

[chris410 0]

I'd spend $75-100 on a reliably working 20-30 round mag.

[emclean 0]

$100 is way too much for my blood, i cringed at $35 for mag's.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

$100 is way too much for my blood, i cringed at $35 for mag's.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I do too, which is why I developed the G3 mag conversion.

 

This is just for the folks who desperately want hi-caps for the S-308 but will not modify their rifle for them.

 

So far interest is 1 yes, 3 no. I'd need to have a number of definite buyers to justify the investment.

 

Oh, and I should have added earlier, I want the opinions of people who HAVE S-308s that they could actually use these mags in. Ideas and opinions from other folks please stick to other threads. This thread is narrow in purpose and other ideas deserve their own threads. Don't think that's a problem yet, just wanted to be clear that I didn't want to start one of "those" thraeds.

[uzitiger 193]

I saw a .308 Saiga and the most likely magazines for adapting to the Saiga would be the FN-FAL, M-14 and Galil magazines. These magazines are narrow in front like the Saiga and are inexpensive. In addition to the adding a rear tang to these magazines a new follower would have to be made similar to the Siaga follower and made to fit the converted magazine.

The H&K G3 magazine is wide in front and would need adapting the reciever. I've seen H&K mags used for the Saiga S12 shotgun.

 

[TWGLADF 0]

i saw an auction for 5 brand new m14 thermold mags that went for only about $45.

 

i was seriously considering getting those just to try to mod them but i'm still content with my factory 8 rounders for now.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

I saw a .308 Saiga and the most likely magazines for adapting to the Saiga would be the FN-FAL, M-14 and Galil magazines.  These magazines are narrow in front like the Saiga and are inexpensive.  In addition to the adding a rear tang to these magazines a new follower would have to be made similar to the Siaga follower and made to fit the converted magazine.

The H&K G3 magazine is wide in front and would need adapting the reciever.  I've seen H&K mags used for the Saiga S12 shotgun.

 

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Cross off the FAL magazine due to its full length feed lips. M14 and Galil mags are really the only common contenders (if you consider the Galil common) that have anything over the G3 mags. The real advantage of the G3 mags is the height of the feed lips over the front of the mag. M14 mags have much shallower feed lips, but with mods have been made to work ok, sort of, some times. Galil mags I'm not extremely familiar with.

 

Thing about the S-308 is that in order to fit the 308 round, it takes up space on both ends. They moved the center post back and the magazine well forward, where there'd otherwise be a feedramp. The mag has a small tab that acts as a feedramp. It is also relieved at the sides to clear the trunion. In my G3 mag conversion, I had to both move the mags back, removing the center post, AND relieve the sides at the front. You might get around one of those by using M14 mags but not both. Galils I have no experience with and they're a little expensive to tinker with.

 

Second to splicing a thermold mag with a Saiga tower, simply modding a thermold G3 or M14 mag would probably be the best idea.

 

In any case, PLEASE bring up other ideas on other threads. I was gaging interest for machined mags and it looks like there isn't enough (Sorry Chris-410). Unless you want to change my mind on this, let's let this thread die and have our other ideas in their own threads. And I'll get back onto the mag adaptors (Sorry Macbeau for taking the time away from them to post this silliness.)

[IndyArms 10,186]

I will help you kill it, BRG3...

 

NO...

 

I dont see a need for a hi cap .308, honestly... its not what I consider a "plinking" round...

 

If you CANT do it with 8... you probably shouldnt be doing it at all...

 

I still have YET to hear *GOOD ARGUMENTS* on the true "NEED" for a hicap .308... other than "I want more rounds to blast with"... If ya want to blast... blast a X39...ALMOST as powerful and FAR CHEAPER....

 

so????

 

What can 20 rounds of 308 do that a 20 rounder of X39 cant?!?!?!

 

[Smiley_Guy 2]

[from Johnny Dangerously] "It's an 88 magnum. It shoots through schools"

 

I love my 7.62X39s. The "7.62" is all they have in common with the .308. The .308 shoots straighter, harder, further than the X39. It is a bigger, badder, meaner round. The .308 is more fun to shoot, but if you can't afford it, stick to the AK.

 

I'm waiting for the 100 round drum ;-)

[Smiley_Guy 2]

ps... happy 2000th post in your reply, Indy!

[IndyArms 10,186]

Hey.... thanks!!!!!

 

 

I dont want anyone to get me wrong... I am not ripping on the .308 by ANY MEANS...

 

Nor am I saying its too expensive to shoot either...

 

I just dont see why anyone would WANT to blast with it... when a cheaper alternative can be had... why spend double or triple the price??

 

If you have a job that *NEEDS* a .308 to "get-r-done" what job would need more than 8 rounds is my question....

 

target shooting and plinking... I dont see where the difference would be more than negligible...

 

If I want it for hunting... If I need more than 2 shots... I just did something wrong...

 

 

What am I missing here???

 

 

[Smiley_Guy 2]

I want a new Dodge Charger, but I'll wait for the 425HP one. If I use more than about 200HP I'll get a ticket. So why do I want the big one when a Kia Spectra will do the job???...

[chris410 0]

I just dont see why anyone would WANT to blast with it... when a cheaper alternative can be had... why spend double or triple the price??

 

 

What am I missing here???

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I dont see why anyone wouldnt want to blast with it, its the same as the desire for a 20 rd drum 12 gauge, just for fun. I agree if 8 rounds of 308 dont get the job done, you aint doin it right, but if I could get higher capacity, I would, just for fun.

And seeing as I'm used to paying ridiculous prices for mags (s-12, valtro etc...) I could bring myself to shell it out for my 308. I know its a bit ridiculous but love makes you do strange things dont it?

[IndyArms 10,186]

OK.... OK.....

 

 

 

I guess I am just too stuck in my peabrain that the .308 isnt really a plinking/blasting round and is more suited to hunting...

 

 

The arguments are all fair... especially yours, Smiley... I can DIG THAT!!

 

Ya know... I too would LOVE a high cap for the Saiga .308... I am just not going to even worry about one till theres one there that works, and is relatively inexpensive...

 

No frankenmag, no modded mags, no magwell adapters... just a basic "plug and play" .308 saiga hi cap...

 

Just my way of viewing these whole shennanigans...

 

"the views expressed are solely of the Indyarms dude, and not necessarily the views of the saiga forums, and may or may not represent your viewpoints, thanks and have a nice day"

 

( That was my disclaimer. ROFL!!!! )

 

 

 

[BattleRifleG3 16]

"... neither are they the opinions of a young lady wearing what has been doctored into a Saiga shirt."

[imrayzor666 0]

Yes, I'd buy a 30 round mag. If all else, just to say I have the only one.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

I have a compromise plan in the works that won't require as huge an investment. Also have a use for an extra S-308 if I end up going that route. Frankly, only a handful of SERIOUS buyers would be worth it. Let me take care of making it work, the question is IF I made it real and made it work, would you buy one?

 

Ok, here's the bottom line. IF I can actually SELL about 15-20 of these, it would be worth it. That's a pretty low number. That's the beauty of manual machining. But I'd have to have that many for sure otherwise I would most likely lose money, not to mention time which is worth money.

Edited July 17, 2005 by BattleRifleG3

[St Michael 0]

Yes, I'm serious.  Something like $70-80 for a 20rd and $100 for a 30rd. 

 

Yes, I would pay $70-80 a piece for 2 twenty round mags. Send me a private message if you need personal information.

[k_dawg 0]

I just wish that BETA-mag would come out with a 100rounder for the AR .308's :-)

 

ar! ar! ar!

 

But, barring that.. i'ld settle for a belt-feed option.

[RooK 0]

Wouldn't it be easier to machine some blocks of steel that, in use with a hydralic press, allow you to stamp aluminum?

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Unfortunately, it looks like my mag-for-stock deal may fall through. If so, it'll be a while until I can look into this. If anyone would like to lend me an S-308 mag with no promises except that I'll return it unharmed, that could make a difference. Again, no promises, but at least I won't steal your mag... I have absolutely no reason to.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

WARNING: Contains 300 and 400 level Mechanical Engineering material by someone who may well be a poor teacher. Scroll to the last paragraph if you don't care.

 

On the stamped aluminum thing, there are a couple peculiar issues. In order to have the same strength as steel, it has to be thicker. Doesn't have to be extremely strong on the bottom, but at the top it does. And the problem with bending thicker materials is that the strain at the edges is a lot higher. When metals strain, funky things happen, differently for each one.

 

In my senior capstone engineering design course, we learned that steel has a pretty unique stress-strain curve that allows us to work with it in ways we can't with other metals. Aluminum is not so. Try bending a piece of cold steel and a piece of cold aluminum the same thickness and you'll see what I mean. You'll see far more noticeable strain in the aluminum, including "cleavage", where in small, sometimes microscopic levels, the metal breaks apart.

 

Basically, aluminum needs to be thicker for the same strength, and thicker means higher strain at the edges of the bends. When bending materials that are first thicker and second not steel, you need to use higher radii of curvature. This is not extremely good for most magazines. And the S-308 is anything but an exception.

 

The S-308 uses a magazine that is unprecedentedly complicated because it is part of an intricate system of innovations that allows the 308 round to fit in a standard AK-100 pattern receiver. They had to stretch the mag well forward and back, and moving it forward required something completely different with the magazine. It is a.) opened in certain areas to not interfere with critical parts of the gun and b.) has an important component for locking in the mag well AND serving as a feedramp.

 

Ok, here's the last paragraph with minimum engineering course material. COULD it be done without machining? Sure. Those processes generally require a higher initial tooling cost and a lower cost per item when enough of them are produced. That's not my department. And those for whom it IS their department haven't seen fit to make a S-308 mag. Plastic moulding, stamped steel, all of those require a long product run to be cost effective. Machining is much better when making fewer items. Cost is generally the same for a few products as many, plus the design process and R&D.

 

Couldn't there be another way? Please another way besides manual machining! Couldn't you machine some small part and then make the rest stamped? All those things have been going through my head too. But sometimes you can try sooooo hard to avoid machining that you make more work for yourself than just machining the dang thing and getting it done. I DO have a hybrid idea that has many major advantages, but it's just an idea.

[emclean 0]

anyone would like to lend me an S-308 mag with no promises except that I'll return it unharmed

how long would you need it for (looking for a WAG)?

[bamaboy 0]

I have several Thermolds for M1As, HKs, & FALs, What would one use as an adhesive to join them to a saiga mag ??

[BattleRifleG3 16]

I would use epoxy myself. But it's not as simple as splicing any mags, you'd have to make sure the internal dimensions would line up and that the follower would both feed through both sections smoothly and feed the rounds correctly.

 

As far as time to analyze a S-308 factory mag, I'd say a week or two to see if it seems feasible and maybe get some dimensions together. If I do make them though I might need it longer to reference while I make the prototype mag(s). Whoever would be so kind as to lend me one should probably have more than one at hand so that their Saiga isn't mag-less at any time.

Edited July 19, 2005 by BattleRifleG3

[okie shooter 0]

For welding the mags together, you could use heat, like the posts on making high cap shotgun mags. Just hate to lose a functioning rare magazine to make another. Would rather find a way to make a more common mag work without hassleing with adaptors. Guess this is our fault for buying .308 Saiga's rather than 7.62 or 223 which have more parts in common with ak's and easy conversions to allow you to use available high capicity mags.

 

As for .308 not for blasting, its as low priced in surplus as 223, they are useally fifteen cents or less per round for nato spec ammo, and even new wolf was three bucks a box at the last show I was at. With the pric of new production 7.62x39 moving up(at or near a hundred a case).

 

The nice thing about shooting .308 is the way heads turn at the range when shooting them, everyone has a ak's(including me) but when they hear the boom of a .308 gun it gets their attention, and blasting is fun no matter.(would love to blast with the saiga's I have but without high cap magazines in either .308 or 7.62 have to settle for the fal or cetmes for the big boom)

[G O B 3,516]

BRG-3 What is the feasibility of cutting 2 AK mags and welding them into an S-.308? I will have to look at that when I get home. ( even if the foward one needs mods, it would be easier fabbing from scratch)

 

G O B