TX-Zen 287 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 I'd like to see some evidence that the AK was designed with the side mount. Have you heard of the AKN from 1954? Z Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 Why does the ATF care at all about the side rail? Its a scope mount, which they clearly stated was totally sporting. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 I don't use my safety, but I am glad it is there. If the ATF said we can't have folders, some people would get on here and say "fine with me , I don't use them anyways." Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alpha Kilo 42 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 I agree with TX, few people in the US know it's potential, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. I just wish the stuff was cheaper and more available. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grommit666 24 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 All your saigas with rails just became more valuable. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wade Pruetz 103 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 (edited) I'd like to see some evidence that the AK was designed with the side mount. Have you heard of the AKN from 1954? Z No, what is an AKN? Russian optics should all be replaced with Aimpoints. All 74 rifles should be scrapped for ARs! Edited July 24, 2011 by NinerRider Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 All AR's should be scrapped for S.223's! Lol With rails! Lol Quote Link to post Share on other sites
supertex 242 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 $100 cheaper without the rail Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CPF 80 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 (edited) $100 cheaper without the rail I guarantee that the price will not go down with the loss of the side rail.The price of the side railed models will simply skyrocket instead. Edited July 24, 2011 by CPF Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Scratch 91 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 (edited) NOW FOR THE BEST NEWS, FOR SOME REASON THE A.T.F. IS REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT SIDE RAILS ON THESE GUNS, I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT BUT MINE IS NOT TO QUESTION WHY. I DO KNOW THAT THE IMPORTERS ARE TELLING US THAT ALL OF THE FORM 6 IMPORT PERMITS THAT HAVE BEEN TURNED IN HAVE BEEN REJECTED AND THEY ARE HAVING TO MODIFY THE FIREARMS TO OMIT THE SIDE RAIL BEFORE SUBMITTING NEW SAMPLES AND NEW FORM 6's, SO IT MAY BE A WHILE, IF EVER, BEFORE THESE ARE PLENTIFUL AGAIN. THE BATCH WE ARE RECEIVING ARE GRANDFATHERED AND DO HAVE SIDE RAILS AND 19" BARRELS."[/size][/font][/b][/center] How is this "THE BEST NEWS"? It just confirmation that BATF is unofficially blocking the importation of S12 by rejecting import permits. They've thrown up the first of what will probably be many obscure and nonsensical complaints about the gun's configuration, which will be time consuming and expensive for the exporter to correct on each weapon already built, then make them re-submit the weapon for approval by BATF. Then there will likely be another rejection of permits, this time for some other bizarre detail, demanding the process be done again. It's just a de facto imporation ban. Edited July 24, 2011 by Mr. Scratch 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gpqueen 545 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 The rails cost $10 if you have a gun without one. http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-169/saiga-ak47-rail-side/Detail?sfs=4c4beb58 The guns we are getting in this week are the cheapest I have seen in 6 months. I will let you know if they have rails. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TwentyNizzo 66 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 The rails cost $10 if you have gun without one. http://store.carolin...il?sfs=4c4beb58 The guns we are getting in this week are the cheapest I have seen in 6 months. I will let you know if they have rails. Which means this is probably bullshit. Anyone care to mention what seller this is? "DATELINE JULY 22nd 2011 WE HAVE SOME BAD NEWS, SOME GOOD NEWS, SOME MORE BAD NEWS, AND ULTIMATELY SOME REALLY GOOD NEWS, CONCERNING THE SAIGA 12 GAUGE SHOTGUNS NOW THE BAD NEWS, THE RUSSIANS ARE SAVY TO THE U.S. MARKET AND AS WE HAVE BEEN BEING TOLD ALL ALONG THEY ARE INCREASING THE PRICE OF THESE WEAPONS TO THE IMPORTERS AND HENCE THE PRICE IS GOING UP TO US. WE ARE DOING ALL WE CAN TO HOLD THE PRICE ON THESE BUT WE HAVE TO PASS AT LEAST A PORTION OF THE INCREASE ALONG TO THE CUSTOMER. AS SUCH, WE ARE FORCED TO PASS ALONG A $50.00 INCREASE. THE NEW PRICE ON THESE, AT LEAST UNTIL THERE IS ANOTHER INCREASE, WILL BE $xxxxxx Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vulcan16 971 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 The rails cost $10 if you have gun without one. http://store.carolin...il?sfs=4c4beb58 The guns we are getting in this week are the cheapest I have seen in 6 months. I will let you know if they have rails. Which means this is probably bullshit. Anyone care to mention what seller this is? "DATELINE JULY 22nd 2011 WE HAVE SOME BAD NEWS, SOME GOOD NEWS, SOME MORE BAD NEWS, AND ULTIMATELY SOME REALLY GOOD NEWS, CONCERNING THE SAIGA 12 GAUGE SHOTGUNS NOW THE BAD NEWS, THE RUSSIANS ARE SAVY TO THE U.S. MARKET AND AS WE HAVE BEEN BEING TOLD ALL ALONG THEY ARE INCREASING THE PRICE OF THESE WEAPONS TO THE IMPORTERS AND HENCE THE PRICE IS GOING UP TO US. WE ARE DOING ALL WE CAN TO HOLD THE PRICE ON THESE BUT WE HAVE TO PASS AT LEAST A PORTION OF THE INCREASE ALONG TO THE CUSTOMER. AS SUCH, WE ARE FORCED TO PASS ALONG A $50.00 INCREASE. THE NEW PRICE ON THESE, AT LEAST UNTIL THERE IS ANOTHER INCREASE, WILL BE $xxxxxx Another classic bullshit ad. Since the new owner has come in we have seen too many ads like this from them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TwentyNizzo 66 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 Anyone know if the new guns are coming in with LRBHOs? That's what I want, a gun with no side rail and the factory LRBHO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TX-Zen 287 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 No, what is an AKN? Russian optics should all be replaced with Aimpoints. All 74 rifles should be scrapped for ARs! We'll discuss this further at the range haha Z 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CPF 80 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 No, what is an AKN? Russian optics should all be replaced with Aimpoints. All 74 rifles should be scrapped for ARs! We'll discuss this further at the range haha Z +1. I am going to have to bookmark that picture. It's just too good to pass up Quote Link to post Share on other sites
joshdr 0 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Where did he say the AK was designed with the side rail? Re read the post. IMO the side rail can be very useful on ANY AK, including the shotguns. Like Evl said it's also very easy to remove if you don't like it for any reason (like if you do a UF conversion for instance). The side rail has been an important part of the AK since it's inception . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
joshdr 0 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Oh since the side rails inception, not the AK's inception. Sorry. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sickness 89 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Why does the ATF care at all about the side rail? Its a scope mount, which they clearly stated was totally sporting. Their study said accessory rails mounted on the sides, or underneath the receiver was non-sporting, right? This is a rail, on the side of the gun. By the LETTER of the law, it is not to be imported. By the SPIRIT of the law, clearly it should be fine. It isn't up to ATF agents (or prosecutors or police, for that matter) to look at the spirit of the law. They enforce the letter of the law. It is an unfortunate casualty. It might be good though.. if enough guns are imported w/o the rail, people will go searching for other mounting solutions. This can create more products on the market, and more competition for established products. Increased sales and economy of scale might make things like the beryl rail, or Chaos products come down in price. Or we just suck it up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CPF 80 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Or we get some legislators in that will change the law. This form of gun control has gone on too long. How amazing would it be if the whole 922 law system didn't exist? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
btr 15 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deussne 38 Posted July 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Well, according to that BATFE comment one could easily add a Foregrip to that side rail on the receiver and make it unsporting... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gpqueen 545 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 The ones we received today are marked Legion, 19" IZ109, 2011 production with the side scope plate installed. They do not have the etched out RAAC marking on the right. Only Legion on the left. $579 http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-505/SAIGA-12-IZ-dsh-109-19%22/Detail?sfs=1fed45d1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 (6) Integrated Rail Systems.42 This refers to a mounting rail system for small arms upon which firearm accessories and features may be attached. This includes scopes, sights, and other features, but may also include accessories or features with no sporting purpose, including flashlights, foregrips, and bipods. Rails on the sides and underside of shotguns—including any accessory mount—facilitate installation of certain features lacking any sporting purpose. However, receiver rails that are installed on the top of the receiver and barrel are readily adaptable to sporting purposes because this facilitates installation of optical or other sights. The 'rail' on a saiga is NOT an accessory rail. It is a scope mount only. It is not even close to the definition they used, as nothing unsporting can be mounted to them. Rails have a definition and are specified to a specific size. The saiga rail is not even close. Seeing that Greg has new S-12s with the scope mount. It would seem that someone knows how to fill out their paper work correctly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mephis 82 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 (edited) hope the rifles keep the side rail, looked at a iac ak 74 , no side rail , deal breaker It was a move on part of the ATF shotgun study, it has nothing to do with rifles. For the majority of people I doubt the rail will ever be used, a smaller percentage wastes it on cheap chinese side mounts and walmart red dots. An even smaller percentage will actually adopt proper optics for the platform. With the TWS dog leg, tech sights, and all the other things currently available I don't see an issue. Especially since on the saiga 030 model, they aren't using a side rail and are using a similar set up to the TWS dog leg. If the information presented on the side rail is incorrect, it may be concerning the 030 model possibly being imported, and having the rail under the gas block removed. The 030 model does not have a side scope mount rail, which this may possibly be why this is confusing dealers. Edited July 25, 2011 by Tombs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TX-Zen 287 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Oh since the side rails inception, not the AK's inception. Sorry. Does it really matter if it was on MTK's drawing board with a rail or if they added it only around 1954? The rail has been in use for about 55-57 of the 62 years the rifle has been in general service. Z 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sickness 89 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 I pulled this from the stupid shotgun study: Yeah, but that is just the study.. it isn't a judgement or ruling. My point with the study is that it indicates HOW they are thinking.. AFAIK they haven't issued a final ruling yet, so we don't know WHAT they are thinking. ATF agents on the ground may have simply been told to tighten up what is allowed in if it is in the ballpark of the study while the details of a ruling are hammered out.. I believe ATF is allowed some discretion in that regard. On the other hand, for all I know the Russians have a side mount laser or other accessory that uses that rail, and they are basing he decision on that. Or hell, maybe it was just a factory screw up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
calin 0 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 The AK platform has a wide variety of optic solutions, many of them are red dot's which as Deussne said (and I agree) is quite useful on the S12 Or how about a laser for use with night vision? Seems like a good place to put my home-made, custom IR laser. Zombies come at ya' fast and especially so at night! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
taseal 12 Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 Well the Russians are going to get a lesson in economics, becasue of greed on their end the MKA 1919 is going to steam roll Saiga sales if the Turks can make enough of them. Saiga's will pile up at the importers. While the MKA 1919 flys off the shelf. I can't wait to see this play out. at least my people got that right... I'd get the MKA1919 mainly beacuse it's an AR platform, and it's from my motherland Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sickness 89 Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 Well the Russians are going to get a lesson in economics, becasue of greed on their end the MKA 1919 is going to steam roll Saiga sales if the Turks can make enough of them. Saiga's will pile up at the importers. While the MKA 1919 flys off the shelf. I can't wait to see this play out. at least my people got that right... I'd get the MKA1919 mainly beacuse it's an AR platform, and it's from my motherland Why do folks keep saying the MKA1919 is an AR? The MKA1919 isn't an AR. It just sort of looks like one. The internals are not based on Stoner's design at all. There is no top charging handle, even.. so the ergonomics aren't even the same. While the S12 is a bonafide Kalashnikov. The ergonomics are basically the same as any AK. I like that my shotgun and carbine share ergonomics. I'm interested in the MKA1919 just out of curiosity, but I'd need to see/hear of an MKA1919 outperforming an S12 first. I've got 600+ rounds of buckshot (Rio Royale brand), maybe 50 slugs, and a handful of Federal birdshot and Winchester bulk pack through my S12 -- WITHOUT CLEANING. The puck sure is getting stiff, and she doesn't throw the spent shells as far as before, but it keeps on ticking. I was impressed when it passed the 500 rd mark. If it makes it to 1000 rds of buck, I'll be ecstatic. Call me when someone gets that many rounds through the MKA w/o cleaning. Not saying it can't.. but I won't be interested until I know it runs dirty. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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