horatio 515 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 After researching for a few months, i'm finally starting my s-12 conversion. Paulys icing and glasbolting me as we speak, and as soon as i get them back, im shipping it off to one of the vendors here to get it converted. long story short im only about 8 weeks into a 20 week wait to get my shotgun back and i'm already itching to have something russian in my hands. since thats not an option and i always wanted an ak, im looking into that. while i'm somewhat versed in s-12 lingo, my knowledge of ak rifles is somewhat limited. i' ve been through some other forums, and i tried the search engine without alot of luck. so in short, what should i look for when getting an ak? I've been through classic arms, and atlantic. krebs is actually pretty local to me, are they any good? found some stuff i liked. mostly i like the classic look, but for comfort, i have to admit, i like the adjustable stocks. i don't want a folding stock, wire, or any other style and i've read to stay away from the polish models and anything built from a parts kits. i'm willing to spend about 1100ish, but that would be for a finished product. do ak's need to polished up a bit to run well like some saiga's? this would seem contrary to what they became well known for. Really, all im looking for is a dependable rifle that can group ok at 200. any help would be appreciated, thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dieb4iwake 60 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 classicarms or atlaticefirearms have decently converted 7.62's for a reasonable price 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mostholycerebus 415 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 Hell man, for $1100 you can build an AR15 in whatever caliber you like, that will do whatever you want. I thunk most here will reccomend a standard saiga and convert yourself, exactly the way you want it. Should be doable for under $600. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) Krebs is close to you? Fellow Northern Illinoisian? Convert it yourself, its easy and the only wait time you will have is on parts! If you're ok spending that much on an AK, you should be looking at Arsenals models of Saigas (SGL's), or their Bulgarian SLR's. They are considered to be some of the nicest available. Edited July 8, 2012 by Mullet Man 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbanzai 113 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 Get an arsenal. You'll even have money left over for mags and ammo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tatonic 159 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 $1100. would get you a .308 AR. (just saying) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 $1100. would get you a .308 AR. (just saying) Blasphemy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
horatio 515 Posted July 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 thaks for the responses. I have shot ar's, and while i'm not looking to switch the thread to ak vs ar, i'd just like to stick with the ak at this time.I've already got a nice rifle in 308. I'd like something i can actually afford to shoot more than once every two months i've been looking alot at k-var arsenals, i'll have to check out their bulgarians too. they've got veprs in stock. what about those? everyone here seems to love them, all i know is that they are supposed to be very well built ak's. i'd like to switch the furniture out to a collaspible stock though. isn't there something diferent about it that prevents you from doing that? mullet man- yep, fellow illinoisian here what area are you from?. bought my place before i really got into shooting. if i knew then what i know now, i'd probably be sending this from indiana or wisconsin. ah well Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Skiluvr03 24 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 If I had to do it all over again, I would do what I just did; buy a Saiga 7.62 sporter rifle cheap, and convert it myself. There is no better feeling in the world than fixing it up yourself and with your own taste as to how you want it too look. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
draftpick 5 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 for $1100 you can get 2 iz 132's and do a basic conversion on both. Or get 1 iz 332 and convert and get 1500 rounds of ammo and 10 surplus steel mags and have money left over for a chest rig. With that kind of money you have options. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mostholycerebus 415 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) Actually, looking at prices, if I had that kind of money I would get a Rifle Dynamics arsenal saiga with premium upgrade. $700, plus $150 to shorten the barrel to 14" and pin a flash hider. That top of the line flash hider is about $200 IIRC, so that puts you at $1050. That would be a pretty wiz, dam light, Russian built, arsenal modded, AK. Running quality SPs/HPs that would be a killer HD or CQC gun. This round doesn't lose much velocity in short barrels, and it should be stiffer when short too, so may work well out to your 200 yards. Edited July 8, 2012 by mostholycerebus Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BigChongus 765 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 Another vote for converting. You can make yourself a pretty faithful Arsenal copy for around $600 if you do it yourself. I've got around $590 into this guy: Same configuration from Arsenal will run you well north of $800. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hoevito 5 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 My first Saiga was the .223 which I bought and converted myself. I was pretty intimidated at first, but I am at best a mechanical amateur armed with a cheap set of tools and a dremel...and I still did a damn fine job all by myself (on the floor in my living room at that) over the course of a weekend. I had no vice, no extra set of hands, no workstation...just the floor and my hands. A dremel, a few different drill bits and cutoff wheels where the main tools I used and it was adequate enough. If I could go back and do it again, the only thing I probably would've done differently was go with a 5.45 or 7.62x39 as my first due to ammo prices...but don't let anyone say that starting off with a small caliber FIRST is necessary because I disagree. My VERY FIRST RIFLE EVER believe it or not...........was a Century Cetme (.308). A tinkerer's gun by nature...it taught me the ins and outs of gun maintainence, cleaning, doing self repairs/installs, you name it. I'm 6ft 175lbs and I mastered handling .308 recoil and follow up shots pretty well, and I'm a lefty and prefer shooting standing/kneeling/prone. Other than that...this is my next purchase. Cheaper than an arsenal, I love the front sight/gas block setup since I'll be adding a red dot later, and the conversion doesn't require relocating the trigger group, and the barrel is already threaded 14x1. And....it's a Vepr :-) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 mullet man- yep, fellow illinoisian here what area are you from?. bought my place before i really got into shooting. if i knew then what i know now, i'd probably be sending this from indiana or wisconsin. ah well I hear ya. The great state of Chitcago is too blame for this states ruling class. I'm out in the Rockford/Dekalb area. Any of those choices, Vepr, Arsenal or a home grown Saiga, you really cant go wrong with. Only downside to a Vepr IMO, is it still needs a front end conversion (on top of the price tag) to be traditional and the slant cut receiver, which requires a cheesey looking block to square it off for use with standard type AK stocks. Arsenals will hold their value better then any home grown Saiga, just the nature of the beast there, if it matters. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) Another vote for converting. You can make yourself a pretty faithful Arsenal copy for around $600 if you do it yourself. I've got around $590 into this guy: Same configuration from Arsenal will run you well north of $800. Yours is super sexy, no doubt and no argument about it. I especially like that FSB/brake combo on there However there are quite a few differences that set an Arsenal apart from 99.9% of the home grown Saigas, which would easily equate to a couple hundred dollar difference. Correct gas block, trigger guard, the 3 lower handguard retainer notches and the retainer itself, to name some of them. Edited July 8, 2012 by Mullet Man Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BigChongus 765 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 Yours is super sexy, no doubt and no argument about it. I especially like that FSB/brake combo on there Got a sweet deal on that guy lol 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hoevito 5 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 to a first time ak rilfe owner/buyer...if you care about the rifle holding value, brand recognition, fit and finish, functionality out of the box, and basically being as close to perfectly drivable right off the lot...then yes, grab an Arsenal. Also, if you concern yourself with things like ammo pricing, bullet selection and availability...I would recommond the 7.62x39. Cheaper, mags are cheapest of all the cailbers, and the bullet selection is growing and readily more available. 5.45 is a close second but even though it's technically cheaper, onine or major ammo retailers are really the only places you'll find it, and there's less variety in available loadings as I think only Hornady manufacturs it domestically. 5.45 mags are also harder to find and around 50% to nearly double the prices of 7.62 mags (so I've seen). Good .223 mags seem to START at around $30 a pop so unless you REALLY prefer a .223 and don't mind spending about $30 per mag then it might not be a wise first choice...but you'll want one eventually lol... In regards to Vepr's...there's several variants sold that if you go for the traditional look, they already are threaded 14x1 and have configurations with intergrated sight/gas blocks and some with the more traditional ak front sight post. Some already come ready to accept high cap mags with bullet guides already installed. The rear WILL need the slant adaptor to accept traditional stocks but if you opt for a ace/tromix/dph style stock then Carolina shooters supply sells and adaptor for like $45 I think that makes them a bolt on affair. Either way, doesn't seem too bad in my eyes. The Vepr will hands down be the most accurate out to 200m as you stated, but may be slightly heavier due to the thicker steel and dimensions. With my tastes and skills I could build a very nice Vepr that would be in my eyes the ultimate AK for around what you would spend on a nice Arsenal that would probably outperform the Arsenal in every way, but it wouldn't have the namesake or collectors value that an Arsenal has. It all comes down to what you're looking for, what you like, and ultimately what you're gonna do with the rifle. When I get around to owning a Vepr, this is the kinda look I'm going after...because it just oozes sex appeal to me lol... Here's your basic Sgl 21/71, currently retails for around $885 at atlantic Here's a Vepr that's already converted...around $180 more than a basic SGL though... I hear good things about these...thinking about one myself...might not be a bad, cheaper alternative to the more expensive Arsenals/Veprs...the M10. It's only about $600 so it's much more economical. You could apply that extra dough to ammo, accessories...maybe even an unconverted Saiga as a companion piece ;-) Or...you could do what a lot of us on this site have done. Buy a Saiga and convert it yourself. This particular model is like $459 I think, and already has the front end conversion done. Great deal if you ask me... Saves you a BIG headache and a lot of time tinkering with getting that front sight block conversion juuuust right :-) A stock set, couple mags, tapco trigger and a little time later, and you've got a near Arsenal equivalent for about maybe $600 invested and an intimate connection with your rifle. All good options in my opinion...and excuse me for plastering these atlantic pics everywhere. I just thought they were good example/comparison shots :-) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
horatio 515 Posted July 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 man, now i know how a dog chasing a ball feels! (a look inside fatty's head) vepr! no! arsenal! no! vepr! no! arsenal! buy both! shit! still trying to decide, but the info's definitely a help, much appreciated. Rifle dynamics looks awesome. didn't realize they existed, and i just spent about two hours on their page. i still have a lot of questions, biggest of all is, do the prices include the rifle? i don't see how, but you never know. still gotta look some more. the only downside is that they seem geared towards proffesionals. im just looking for something fun at the range, so their abilities may be lost on me.still goona check them out some more though, you nevr know w8lifter- that thing looks awesome- nice job. I'm kinda shying away from the do it yourself conversion idea though,for a couple reasons.I spend most of my day peeling apart mechanical and electrical systems i haven't seen before, then modifying them, and putting them back together. While it is satisfying, and i understand why others like to do it, its a little too close to work for me. this is about fun. mulletman-a least we don't live in chicago- i suppose thats worth something. i do like the vepr's, what would be involved in a front end conversion? i'm not familiar with it. those are some great pictures, no apologies necessary. who makes that first one? i like the looks of that Quote Link to post Share on other sites
patriot 7,197 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 For that kind of money, I'd go with an M14 semi. 7.62 Nato and dead nuts accurate/ Since you want an AK, I'd get a stock Tromix or a Red Jacket. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hoevito 5 Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 man, now i know how a dog chasing a ball feels! (a look inside fatty's head) vepr! no! arsenal! no! vepr! no! arsenal! buy both! shit! still trying to decide, but the info's definitely a help, much appreciated. Rifle dynamics looks awesome. didn't realize they existed, and i just spent about two hours on their page. i still have a lot of questions, biggest of all is, do the prices include the rifle? i don't see how, but you never know. still gotta look some more. the only downside is that they seem geared towards proffesionals. im just looking for something fun at the range, so their abilities may be lost on me.still goona check them out some more though, you nevr know w8lifter- that thing looks awesome- nice job. I'm kinda shying away from the do it yourself conversion idea though,for a couple reasons.I spend most of my day peeling apart mechanical and electrical systems i haven't seen before, then modifying them, and putting them back together. While it is satisfying, and i understand why others like to do it, its a little too close to work for me. this is about fun. mulletman-a least we don't live in chicago- i suppose thats worth something. i do like the vepr's, what would be involved in a front end conversion? i'm not familiar with it. those are some great pictures, no apologies necessary. who makes that first one? i like the looks of that The pic on bottom= the pic on top AFTER being converted. The bottom pic is just some random image i found on googe search of a converted vepr. They are the same rilfe, just with the addition of the bullet guide, flash hider, and folding stock adaptor with a magpul stock. The handguard looks custom, but just from the looks of things, does NOT looks like a hard conversion at all compared to a standard saiga. Looks pretty painless for that particular Vepr model, plus it's just damn sexy... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
horatio 515 Posted July 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 (edited) i didn't know tromix made ak (rifles) i'll have to check that out. i don't really care for red jacket. just a personal preference, they are a quality shop. i'm not really looking for anything in 308- that role has already been taken care of.im just looking for a fun, quality, good looking range gun that i can shoot cheap that vepr conversion is pretty nice- i may have to consider it. still wondering, has anyone dealt with krebs? they're local for me, which is a nice bonus Edited July 9, 2012 by fatty alcohol Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hoevito 5 Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 (edited) i didn't know tromix made ak (rifles) i'll have to check that out. i don't really care for red jacket. just a personal preference, they are a quality shop. i'm not really looking for anything in 308- that role has already been taken care of.im just looking for a fun, quality, good looking range gun that i can shoot cheap that vepr conversion is pretty nice- i may have to consider it. still wondering, has anyone dealt with krebs? they're local for me, which is a nice bonus Krebs? I've heard nothing but good stuff about them, and most people I've seen that actually got a Krebs loves them.....BUT, personally for over a $1300 asking price, I'd rather start off with a base Saiga/Vepr and modify it to your hearts content and save a couple hundred dollars in the process. Awesome rifles don't get me wrong...but when it comes down to it, an Arsenal/Saiga/Vepr are going to be every bit just as functional and as accurate as a Krebs, the Vepr probably even more so due to the thicker barrel and receiver. The Krebs does look awesome though, but not only is it outside of your stated budget...the Vepr still looks cleaner :-) Throw a tri-rail of choice and TWS gen 2 mount on the Vepr if that's what you're after and you have argubaly a better rifle imo... Edited July 9, 2012 by hoevito Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mostholycerebus 415 Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 That vepr looks sweet, gives me some ideas for my saiga M series... Personally, after fondling my M series, I would avoid the Vepr for anything but a safe queen and occasional range day. My saiga has the same heavy receiver, bolt, and barrel and...its just heavy. I would never want to actually carry it for more than 5 minutes. The 7.69x39 catridge doesn't have the juice to go over 200 anyway, so any accuracy gain will be minimal. The main benefit is, this rifle will last even longer than a regular AK, I expect my great grandkids to hand it down. Also, I'm in minooka, right off I80 and 55. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Start with a Saiga. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 87 Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 If your between a VEPR and and Arsenal buy the damn SGL and go shoot! There are many here among myself who have converted and still own an Arsenal. Wouldnt trade it and if I could go back Id buy one again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
horatio 515 Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 thanks for all the help everybody- looks like i'm getting an arsenal! course, i'm sure i'll be changing stuff on it sooner than i expect. now i gotta go price spam cans... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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