What would you dads do? (warning long post)

[joes 0]

OK a little background about me. I have served in both the Marines & Army. I started when Johnson was president and got out when Reagan was in office. My MOS was 03/11B in both services. I did a stint as A DI at Benning running grunts through OSUT. I rose through the noncom ranks quick. I had officers with the rank of 06 and below call me by my first name, not because I was a kiss ass, but because I took care of business. When in the Army my battalion CO would bring me new 2nd Lt by the scruff of the neck, with the order to "train then Sgt". Some of these were West Point kids to.

 

Why am I telling you this?.....because I am pissed, scared, confused! When I decided to raise a family I though maybe, just maybe. I would not have to worry about any more wars\conflicts\police actions. Were my two sons would either be drafted, or join the military. Well of course I was wrong. We now have "The war on terror". I also have two sons one 22 and the other 17. The 22 year old is in college, with no interest in the military. So he is only eligible for a draft if one is started by congress. The 17 year old is the problem. He loves the military. His fantasy is to join the Marines and be a grunt, not a cook nor a mechanic (REMF\Pogue), a grunt. This kid is a "A" student does not drink or smoke (yet) or do drugs. Short hair (a real redneck). Like me (to bad)

 

I do not want him to go into the military, because he needs to go to college to get that "degree" so he can get a decent job with good pay and all the other things that go along with a good paying job. But its his life if he wants to waste it or possibly die in a BS war\police action. I told him its best to pick your fight, with who, when, were & how. Since he does have a choice its best to sit this one out & wait for one that matters ( if any do). But he "wants to do his part for freedom". I guess people have to make there own mistakes. Hell want do I know about the military. I ran off to Canada to hide from the draft board and smoked dope.

 

I like when the REMF\Pogue recruiters (who would want to me a dirt bag recruiter, sort of like a used car salesmen), call looking for my 17 yr old. I wonder how they know he even alive. His school probably. I tell them the same line. "Know this Mf'er when you are talking lies in his left ear, I'm telling him first hand "truth in his right". They of course ask me how I know things, so I tell them things only lifers know & they always say "err....yes sir" sort of sad, like shit this will be a hard sell, cause the dads a dick & been there done that...LOL

 

First off in case anyone may "think I'm anti war, or a liberal. know this...If and I say if, one of my sons were in the military and were either KIA or WIA and one of those anti war pukes approached me to join, or make a statement about the war. I would play it off as though I was going along with it. Then I would request to speak with one of the more "famous" anti war people on national TV and when they were close. I would grab them by the ears and do a Hanable Lector on them.

 

These are a few thoughts I have about the "war on terror", the anti war people, the military, the draft, pay in the military & China

 

The draft. We need a draft, or military military\national service starting upon graduation from HS and lasting for 6 years. With 3 yr active 3 years active reserve. Both men and woman. I'm sick and tried of woman getting a free ride. Its time for them to bare the sting of battle on a large scale like the men have been doing since the beginning. Also the rich collage pukes wont be able to chant their anti war BS, while the mostly undereducated, poor, men do their fighting. Cause they will be on the line with the rest of us. No deferments (except medical) everybody goes in . Another thing with the draft is it will give a better cross section of "America" in the military. During the mid 70's, I read that the joint chiefs were worried about the "all volunteer" Army. They thought that it would turn into a welfare military, with only poor, unemployed, undereducated people being drawn to join up. I don't know if it was a reality, but I did see alot of poor people in the military during that time. I have a picture in my mind of a E-4 with a wife and 4 small kids, driving a early model street boat, with white smoke coming out of the tail pipe, held up with a coat hanger.

When I government breaks it contracts and keeps troops beyond their enlistments its time for the draft.

 

Military pay is a disgrace. When you have 18-20 year old kids signing for $1.000.000 in equipment, being shot at, etc. The pay should be increased. I seems the military always pays the standing minium wage for E-1, which in my case was 35 cents a hr x 160 hrs in a work month = $56 a month for a private. I did the math for the pay now for E-1 and it still comes out to minium wage. The as we know one works more that 40 hrs a week in the military. How many times have you read about servicemen with families having to get welfare assistance because they can't survive on the low pay, even with the BAQ for enlisted & the separate rations pay you get if you have family and don't eat in the mess hall.

 

The anti war people. well want can I say but stay away from me if you like your "nose". Oh must I forget the Gulf\Irag vets against the war bunch. I noticed that most of them were Air farce types. Are they not embarrassed for letting the commie Cindy Sheehan crowd use them? I guess not.

 

Now to the "war on terror" Were do I begin. When I was 18 and went into the military I could not wait to go over to VN for some action. I had no idea of the political side of the issue nor did I care. All I wanted to do after infantry training was to shoot guns & blow shit up. Of course if I knew then want I understand now, I believe I would have chosen to stay out of that one (I think). We had no business involving the US troops\manpower in that shit hole. So what if the whole country went commie. I did anyway and as we know 58,000+ of our bros died, for what? Not for VN's "freedom" but for each other. I also know the US's mind set during the "cold war" was to stop commie aggression, thus the spread of it (like mad cow sickness?) and to show the commie bastards that we were willing to go tit for tat and expend lives for what we believed.

 

So we have the Korean and VN war\police actions both to stop commie expansion. They don't even talk to much about Korea. I'm glad I did not have to fight in that one. I would rather sweat that freeze. It must hurt like a bitch worse, getting hit when its cold. I salute my Bros in arms who fought in that shit hole.

 

I believe that the government had to give the people "blood" after 9/11. Since we had no clear enemy country to attack (like in WWII) We went after the Talaban in Afghanistan and old Sad am. I say OK no problem you have to give the people blood for 9/11 (heads on pikes would be better). I do have a problem with the drag on crap in Irag. I say we went over their and "bitch slapped" the Irag military, good. Then we should have left. Didn't the military or government think that by us being there that every dirt bag with a ax to grind with the US would flock there to get a chance at killing some US troops? I don't care if Irag has a democratic government fuck them and their shit hole country. Not one US death is was worth it. Thats why IMHO we should have not gone there in the first place. The anti war pukes and commie media keep saying Irag is another VN. Sorry but one has jungle and the other has sand...LOL. What the two do have in common is that more US troops are being killed and the generals keep saying the same line I heard before..."we will not pull out early and disgrace the deaths of our troops until the job is done" We will leave there sooner or later but how many more kids will have to die until they say enough is enough. Its like all wars the grunts don't die\suffer for "freedom" for pussy, beer. (well maybe pussy). They die cause they are "there" and fight, suffer and die for the their Bros. on their left and right. So if they were not there then they wouldn't be suffering. IMHO the government is wasting a valuable resource. That is people who are willing to follow orders and die. We best focus our attention to other countries like N. Korea, Iran, China, cause there is were the real threat will come from sooner or later. Were we will need all the troops we a loosing in Irag, when we find our self's on some frozen plain "again" fighting off human wave assaults and changing out over heated MG barrels with bare hands.

Edited November 10, 2005 by joes

[dodgeturbointerceptor 1]

....................................................

[Rusty 0]

I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make here...

You sure do set up your credintials as career military, then say:

Hell want do I know about the military. I ran off to Canada to hide from the draft board and smoked dope.

Military pay is a disgrace, and that only poor people are joining, but we need to draft everybody? Do you understand the idea of an all volunteer force?

You then go on to call Iraq a modern Vietnam (my words), except "ones jungle and ones sand."

 

I really like to attempt to get a bead on what somebody is thinking before I respond to their posts, but the only thing I'm getting from you is a headache. You start out asking what would other fathers do if they had a son that wanted to join up, then move into some sort of "Anti-War-Since-1945" mini novel...

 

What exactly are you trying to say here? I'll wait to pass judgement, but this sure does sound like a bunch of cut together stories from various sources, or a wiskey induced recolection of past events.

 

I'm not a dad, but I am a 22 year old college student that is seriously thinking about a stint in the military. If you want advice, I'll tell you what my dad told me: "If you want to do this, go in with both eyes open. Never believe a thing the recruiter says, and (here's where the paternal love hit) don't get shot damnit."

[Bravo 26 2]

He's ranting and venting cause he's worried about his son dude! I would be too. Military Pay IS absolute shit,

It's a fucking joke, an farce, etc...i was 1/2 way done to my 20 year letter in the Army, and JUMPED when the stop loss ended to haul ass into a cushy civvilian job making good money. TWICE what I was getting in the service.

 

Joes, I feel for ya man..really do. But if your boy is anything like I was at 17, it's like trying to thumb wrestle a bull on crack. he has to be his own man. It speaks volumes about his character that he wants to serve. that speaks of a good up bringing.

 

Now on to the Iraq thing. if he enlists, and goes ground pounder, 11bangbang...he WILL go to Iraq. No question.If he goes frontline "in the shit" he has a 15% chance of getting wounded, and around 2% KIA. Sorry to be dick about it, but that's just fact.. the trick is to convince him to take on another MOS and make that MOS sound Hooah. MI is good, JAG can be High speed if you go into CID, even enlisted men are sometimes tasked for undercover CID work, Aviation is also pretty high speed...convince him to be a helo pilot, whatever.. I'm not knocking the grunts by any means, god bless em...but if you want a good civvie job after you get out, you havta go with something other than Infantry.

 

Sound like you been in the shit once or twice yourself, so if he wont listen to his old man, find someone he will listen to to tell him the real deal. The best bet is to go to a local reserve center, or nastyguard unit, a unit with Iraq vets, and have one of them take him to lunch one day, and give him the no-shit intel dump on what it's like...god knows hollywood is no roadmap to this stuff.. most iraq vets will jump at the chance to educate a greenie before he does something "high speed". Good luck.

[Wolverine 10,360]

joes,

 

I joined the military at age 17 after graduating HS with my parents written consent. Those were the days of Vietnam. I got a good dose of reality that I have since carried with me.

 

I think Bravo's advice is good for any parent whose son or daughter is thinking of enlisting. Talking to those who have been there is a much better barometer than recruiters, movies, reading, etc.

 

In the end it is the young persons choice but at least they will have been given the facts rather than saying to themselves "how the hell did I get in the middle of all this shit?"

 

Wolverine

 

PS....Most of us, of course, recognize your avatar which is a famous photo from Vietnam. It shows the street execution of a North Vietnamese prisoner by a South Vietnamese soldier. It is regarded as a anti-war symbol of that time.

[joes 0]

joes,

 

 

PS....Most of us, of course, recognize your avatar which is a famous photo from Vietnam. It shows the street execution of a North Vietnamese prisoner by a South Vietnamese soldier. It is regarded as a anti-war symbol of that time.

 

Wolverine:

Yep: I guess its anti war, although to me its not, its more like street justice for a terrorist

 

Bravo 26:

I figured you and Wolverine would get the drift of what I was getting at. I tried to steer him to the Coast Guard (Gunners mate), but of course he thinks the CG is for pussies. Like I mentioned he will have to live and learn by his own.

[dodgeturbointerceptor 1]

...he will have to live and learn by his own...

there you go.......

Edited November 10, 2005 by dodgeturbointerceptor

[Bvamp 604]

unfortunately, there is always war. if there were only peace, it would no longer be peace. and for one thing to exist, there has to be the other side of it. in this case war.

 

what would I do? when my kid asks me? (cant wait for that one) were you in serious combat a lot? know others that were? scare the shit out of him. tell him the truth or even better, show him what it is. It isnt glorious like he thinks it is, is what I think. That with what the guys above said so far, even if it may be a little bit harsh, but maybe that is a road you could find a way down.

 

then again, maybe the shit he sees on the fucking TV has made him tolerant to that type of thought, and will only know better when he is shot at the first time, which is what you seem to want to avoid.

 

if he still must go? make him become an officer. tell him why you hated war for real. hell its your youngest son, right? Im sure you can level with him. being a true father can and will hurt you when you do the right thing, sometimes.

 

just a thought. I figured from your letter, I would give you the courtesy of responding in kind.

 

(you could just cuff his ass to the water pipe so he cant leave)

[Bigfoot Wallace 0]

That is a tough one. I have a 12 yr old son who is hell bent for the military. He is already in jrROTC. I am steering him toward ROTC in college so he can be an officer. Officer is better than enlisted except maybe the air farce Officers fly the planes. I am torn between loving him and the need for protecting this country and its interests. Iraq is not Vietnam but it is still dangerous. We lost 57000 over nine years in VN and 2000 in two in Iraq. No comparison but it is still my son. Helluva deal for both of us. Things are getting better and we probably won't be in Iraq (like we are now) in six years but no stopping your son's going now.

[G O B 3,516]

joe's

As a father of 5 (3 from column A, 2 from column B, the youngest is 22) I can tell you that each one is unique and needs to be handled as the individual that they are.

I did my time on a diesel sub, too many of the males from my graduating class are names on a wall in Wash.D.C.

Tell your children that there is NO glory in war. War is death. War is pain and suffering. War is the ultimate degradation. You will find that there is nothing glamorous or comfortable in war. You go to war and you will be dirty, dead tired bruised beyond the worst whupping you can ever imagine, and scared to the point you wish you were wearing depends. War is when young men suffer and die because wrinkled old men who haven't seen their cocks in years get into a pissing contest.

If your son is thinking about going to war, make shure that he knows what war is. Make shure that he knows what the war is about. If it is something that he feels is worth the price-then kiss him and tell him to dig deep holes and watch his 6. My opinion or your opinion are really irevellant to an 18 year old. What we can give them are the facts to make their own decision.

I drove my oldest son to the Navy recruiter when he was !8. We talked about it, and it was what HE wanted. None of the rest had the callling. However one of my soninlaws did 4 and 2 in the army.

Serving in the armed forces shouldn't be a financial decision there is more money to be made hauling trash. The decision should be made the same as entering into marriage. It is something that should be done not because it something you want to do -- it should be something that you do because you cannot imagine doing anything else.

The values that you taught your children from the cradle are the ones they have today. I hope that you have raised them the way my father taught me "hug them when they are good and spank them when their bad------

because if you forget to do one or the other you'll raise a damned fool!". Talk TO them and don't talk DOWN TO them

 

I WISH YOU LUCK, AND THE WISDOM TO STAND BY THEIR DECISIONS, ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE NOT THE ONES YOU WOULD MAKE FOR THEM.

 

 

G O B

Edited November 11, 2005 by G O B

[pistonring8 1]

Glad to see you around joes, I thought you left us. Your right, the recruters are worse than used car salesmen. They will tell your boy anything to get him to sign.

 

If you are against him going, he will naturally want to go. The only thing you can really do is support him and try to lend your wisdom whenever possible.

 

I joined during Desert Storm. Needless to say, by the time I got through boot camp and my avionics schooling, the war was over and everyone was comming home. I rode out my minimum enlistment until Clinton shut down our base, and I took an early out. So I've done very little for this country, but I tried. When the war in Iraq started after 911, I sneeked down to the recruiters office with my DD214 and inquired about getting back in. Apperantly, I was too old. About a month later the recruiters office called my house to inform me that they had raised the maximum age for entry.....My wife answered the phone.

 

I dont even want to try to explain what happened after that....But luckily, Im still married and the bruises have since gone away. I have a feeling that North Korea is going to be a conflict in our future, and there may even be a draft. I dunno. Im still considered too old to rejoin, but I am in great shape, so I guess there could be a chance, if things got real bad. G.O.B has dibs on my wife, Im sending my son to Cobra76Two.

 

The Swiss have the right idea. Every male upon reaching the age of 18 or 20 or something are inducted into the military. They stay for about a year or two of training and then get sent home with all of thier gear and military firearm. They Have to show up once a year for various qualifications and target practice. Once they reach thier "old" age they turn in thier gear and rifle and go home. If the swiss are ever attacked, they can mobilize most of thier male population within an hour! Ofcorse the Swiss are stricktly neutral, something we are not likely to ever see comming from the US.

 

Being a US soldier is a tough, emotional double edged sword. On one side you have your family and friends and home. On the other you have honor and duty and service to your country. The best you can do, is hope that your country is making the right descision. I dunno if they are or not. Its beyond my understanding and scope of knowledge. I can only offer myself to support thier descisions. Each man and woman has to make that descision on his own, for his own reasons.

[bernerz 11]

In response to what was said earlier about the Coast Guard, before you call them pussies, sit out in 30 foot seas in the middle of a storm for 20 hours straigt looking for a small craft that is in trouble. Coasties may not get shot at but they have some rather difficult jobs. Intercepting drug runners and illegal drugs is an honerable way to serve your country and your neighbors. Now as far as being worried about your child, what is wrong with that? If they join though, with their eyes open to the possibilities of what may occur, that is their choice. As far as other gripes with the military, it is an all volunteer force with certian stipulations that when you sign on the dotted line, you have to be prepared for. The pay was shit, the hours were terrible and the recruiters were liars but that did not change the fact it made me a better person for it and I don't regret a minute of it.

[Gaddis 1,689]

Hmm, some of the older Veterans I have talked to said their time in combat was one of the things that made living their lives worthwhile.

 

The camraderie they shared with their combat buddies forged bonds stronger than some of them even had with members of their own immediate families.

 

I imagine a great many were glad to see the end of their combat experiences, but I know of quite a few Viet Nam era Grunts (and many even today in Iraq in Afganistan), redeploy times to get back into the shit again. Like one of the guys I served with (currently stationed in Iraq) said the Du Pont, Postal service, or Chrysler job he probably has waiting for him when he gets back can't never compare with the stuff he gets to do now.

 

Anyway, dying for your country still makes more sense to me than dying of alchohol poisoning (choking to death on your throwup or some stupid shit like that) in a college dormatory somewhere.

 

Hats off to you servicemen & women currently (and in the past) protecting our asses so's we can argue semantics with people like NoTreason04.

 

And shoot our Saiga's and other assorted shit. :super:

[joes 0]

Thanks fellas for the positive input on this matter. After further discussions with my son, he has told me that he has full intentions to go to college this Sep. & that he has changed his mind & wants to go into the MCR & not active duty. However in Oregon were we live there are only 4+ marine reserve units, all are engineer MOS's. So he will go with one of the 13 series MOS probably 1371, Combat Engineer. If he signs for 6 years. The gov will pay for his college and help pay back any gov student loans he has.

 

So again thanks for all the good input. Oh just to let you all know I did not write that rant "drunk on Whiskey" I don't drink.

 

pistonring8: I see the woman are wearing Hooters "Chicago" Any chance that was taken while in training a the "great Lakes naval training station"?

Edited November 12, 2005 by joes

[ironhead7544 35]

I enlisted in 1969, Army. At the time, 125 guys a week were coming home in a box. The pay was 102.00 a month for an E-1 and 140.00 if you were married. Minimun wage was 1.00 an hour. Most of my friends had gone into one service or other but my dad and uncle had been Army in WWII so thats where I went. My dad told me that sooner or later I would serve so I decided to wait until they drafted me (had a good time until then) and then enlisted as a 45B20 small arms repair. Had a lifelong interest in guns so figured this would be a good spot for me. After training, they sent me to Okinawa were I stayed for 2 and a half years. I had wanted to go to VN but there was a shortage of 45B20s and they wouldnt send me. I also have 2 sons. Neither are interested in the military but I would not try to discouage them if they were. When they are 18 there is really nothing you can do anyway. Just tell them what it is like. Regarding the current war, I think it was something that had to happen sooner or later. These people have been attacking us for many years and getting away with it. Remember that 9/11 was the second time they blew up the Towers. They are fanatics and a worldwide threat. You can bet those other countries that sponsor terrorists are worried that they will be next. I only hope Iraq will become a decent country and will serve as an example for the rest of that part of the world. Just my .02. Good luck to you and your son.

[Gaddis 1,689]

Well, the Jordanians sure seem to be pissed at Al Queda right now.

 

Hopefully soon, the rest of the world will see the light and join the winning team (U.S. and Britian), excluding the French and other terminally pussy countries, I'm sure.

[pistonring8 1]

Yup, Great Lakes IL.

 

$2.00 train ride to Chicago.