Red Star 38 Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 Yeah. I was surprised too. I had a couple of double fires, and started investigating... it turns out that the Tapco G2 FCG is NOT intended for use in the Saiga platform. I went to Tapcos website and saw this (and i quote): *Note: INTRAFUSE G2 Trigger Groups are not compatible with the Saiga platform. INTRAFUSE G2 Trigger Groups are also not compatible with NoDak Spud NDS-3 and NDS-65 "economy" receivers. In some cases, the use of these two products together can create accidental double firing of the firearm. You can see this for yourself by going to their website and looking at the G2 trigger group product page. I dont know when this was appended, or if has always been this way, but that explains the mysterious doubles that I have been getting. I just want to share this info with everyone, your G2 FCG might very well be working correctly, but mine is not. I dont want anyone from here to get into trouble with it either. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
theorangeplanet 968 Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 That's interesting considering that probably 95% of DIY Saiga conversions use the G2 and you very, very rarely hear about any issues. What would the difference in those Nodak and Saiga receivers be when compared to the whole wide range of other receivers the G2 works in? It also makes me wonder if when they mention Saiga if they really mean that its not meant for use in the 'sporter' setup with the FCG moved back. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted February 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 Thats the thing though. I know that many, many people have used this FCG in their builds, hell, I did too. I also thought they were talking about the sporter config, but on their site they dont mention anything about the sporter configuration, only that using the G2 FCG in a Saiga may cause double fires. I am interested to know what differences there really are between a Saiga and a regular AK. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
semper299 284 Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 I would think they mean in the sporter config, but not sure. It has worked fine in mine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 (edited) This article describes the problems that Tapco is alluding to. I don't know why they don't bother to offer even a simplified explanation on their site. http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/notes/notesak/aktrigger/pageaktrigger.shtml Based on the explanation offered, I believe Tapco is simply stating that G2 will not work with a stock Saiga, but that the Nodak Spud products are specifically incompatible with the G2 group due to receiver dimension changes. Nodak Spud even suggests against using the G2 group with these receivers. The problem was that the NDS3 series had the hook relief slot cut too far in most cases, which allows the trigger to overtravel. When this happens, the disconnector rises up too high, and the hammer simply smacks into the disconnector face rather than allowing the hook to catch it. This leads to hammer follow and potential double-firing, or out of battery fire if the carrier tail (the AK's last-ditch OOB safety) is excessively worn/peened. My opinion on Tapco's G2 group has gone down over time spent comparing their product to others available, and dealing with problems that I've had with it. I have had the G2 double on my Saiga .223. There is a "zone" in the trigger where if you pull it slowly enough, neither the trigger nor the disconnector will engage the hammer, and it won't matter if you're using a Tapco hammer or a surplus military hammer. You can make this happen with ANY AK using the G2 trigger group. There is nothing special about the Saiga that makes it possible. Because the G2 group is die-cast and not precisely machined, there are always slight variations in the dimensions of the group. You could buy two G2 groups, one could be fine, and the other may be off by the slight fraction of a millimeter that allows it to double under the right situation. It's a mass-produced, die-cast group, made to "fit all" AKs, when the case is really that many AKs have different carrier, bolt, and receiver dimensions - though the dimensions of the trigger pins, their location on the receiver, and the trigger/hammer geometry is generally the same. This is the only thing that really makes a universal trigger group a possibility, though as we can see it doesn't always work out 100%, though it does for most people. Best bet with any AK, if you're using the G2 group, never baby the trigger. Squeeze it straight and true. Or, make the modifications to the group as shown in the link above, and you may be able to build a match trigger out of it that can deal safely with being treated like a Sako rifle or some such. Edited February 7, 2013 by mancat 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheDarkHorse 216 Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 It makes sense. G2's are a drop-in install in most AKMs. However the hammer must be modified to work in a Saiga, even if you leave out the factory BHO. At least that is the case with my 12's and 308's. the lower "bump" must be relieved to clear the cross-brace in the receiver just behind the mag well. It's just a factual statement. I however, have not ever experienced any doubles in any of my Saigas... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 (edited) They were rare when I had mine in, but both times that it happened, it was during a very slow pull where I was shooting for groups. If you search around the web for G2 double firing, every single time you will find that the shooter was pulling the trigger slowly in this way. I had a couple theories on what happened, including the idea that the hammer was bouncing off of the small bolt head used to fasten the trigger guard, but I realized that such contact would have been happening far below the operating range of the hammer during its phase of being pushed back by the carrier, and that making contact with that bolt head was still within the range of where the disconnector should be able to catch the hammer. I sat down with the gun and started working the group by hand. When I was able to find that spot where the trigger and disconnector would let the hammer slip by, I replaced the entire group with a new G2 and haven't had it happen since. In a properly machined trigger group, there should be no such spot where this is possible. It's just a warning that the G2 group can occasionally be out of spec, and that you may never notice it except for in a very specific situation. They have been known for changing their hammer face profile without warning, and for their accidental over-machining of the disconnector spring channel. I'm not faulting Tapco. It's just the nature of the beast when you decide to produce a somewhat precise mechanism by way of an imprecise manufacturing method. Edited February 7, 2013 by mancat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BigChongus 765 Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 I have a suspicion that it's more of an issue with an out-of-spec die-cast $20 part than it is with a Saiga. If that were the case, you would simply see it more often. The high success rate with low incident occurance suggests an issue with tolerance variations with the trigger. If it were an issue with the platform, it would be much more common and consistent. FWIW, I've never had a single issue with either of my G2s. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bdub 6 Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 I've never had a problem, works just fine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spetnaz Soldier 47 Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 the tapco fcg hammer has peened my bolt due to an inaccurate hammer face (does not sit flush with the end of the bolt) I remedied my problem with an arsenal fcg. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dubya 198 Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Yeah mine works fine through 600 rounds so far besides having to bend the spring leg a little its been great. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RJS 952 4 Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Are the Tapco's you get from CSS slightly modified? I bought mine from him and read something on Craig's site where they are a bit modified and to what extent,i dont know, it seems to be they have taken some material off, was wondering if this was done in hopes of making it more dependable in the scenario of double fires? any know about it? i havent experienced any problems with the 223 or x39 both have at least 1k worth of rounds thru them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted February 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 RJS, the one from CSS has a small amount of the side of the hammer filed off to clear the BHO. its good to know that there are G2's out there that dont have this issue. But, i will say to be very careful. I really dont want anyone here getting into trouble because of it. I will be splurging on a RSA trigger today, hopefully this will solve any double fire issues. I would like to see the vendors state that the G2 is not backed by Tapco in a Saiga though. someone could get this trigger group, have these issues and get into trouble without ever knowing why. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RJS 952 4 Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Thank you REDSTAR, Wish I knew this piece of info then, wouldnt have installed them, I guess I'll see what happens, but thanks for the heads up on these FCG's and I 2nd that idea of it being advertised that they are not truly a compatible component for converting over for 922r purposes on Saiga rifles. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted February 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 sure thing mate, I just dont want anyone to get caught with their pants down. Hopefully yours function and perform well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sas16396 1 Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 After all the searching I did before I converted now this. I just droped the fcg yesterday. Everything feels good. But with my luck it will double fire. Glad I read this im going to shoot it in tomorrow . I will be carefull. To wait. On 2nd round to fire.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tool_of_Society 15 Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 (edited) That's interesting. My saiga has been shot by a wide variety of people from stocky men to petite ladies and so far this hasn't occurred with my rifle. Must of just been lucky with my conversion and the g2. Edited February 8, 2013 by Tool_of_Society Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Piratesailor 14 Posted February 9, 2013 Report Share Posted February 9, 2013 They were rare when I had mine in, but both times that it happened, it was during a very slow pull where I was shooting for groups. If you search around the web for G2 double firing, every single time you will find that the shooter was pulling the trigger slowly in this way.. I think your correct in your assumption. Yesterday I was sighting in a group, pulling slow and had a double fire. I was later able to recreate again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike U. 51 Posted February 9, 2013 Report Share Posted February 9, 2013 I've put G-2's in both of my Saiga's. So far, so good. I am glad I kept my stock hammers now. You know, just in case... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spetnaz Soldier 47 Posted February 9, 2013 Report Share Posted February 9, 2013 this means its time to step up to a trigger worth pulling. I recomend at least an arsenal trigger group ( red star if you can afford it). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tool_of_Society 15 Posted February 9, 2013 Report Share Posted February 9, 2013 I've received many compliments on my current trigger pull so I'm in no hurry to change out the G2. I've done slow pulls plenty of times when sighting in red dots and such. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LuPiN8oR 333 Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 Does anyone know if dinzags modded fcg has the same double feed issue or is that taken care of in the modification? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spetnaz Soldier 47 Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 the pull on your g2 is good im sure as was mine...i got it down to 2.3 pounds without any double tapping issues. I now use an arsenal 2 stage fcg but instead of using the hammer that came with the fcg i use the stock russian one..i like the stock russian one because it is softer metal than the g2 hammer or the arsenal hammer and therefore will peen against the bolt other than the other way around. in more than one case ive heard of the tapco g2 hammer "hammering" the bolt and denting it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKdomination 1 Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 the pull on your g2 is good im sure as was mine...i got it down to 2.3 pounds without any double tapping issues. I now use an arsenal 2 stage fcg but instead of using the hammer that came with the fcg i use the stock russian one..i like the stock russian one because it is softer metal than the g2 hammer or the arsenal hammer and therefore will peen against the bolt other than the other way around. in more than one case ive heard of the tapco g2 hammer "hammering" the bolt and denting it. The saigas I seen for years came with forged steel hammers which should be denser and harder than metal injected molded tapco g2. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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