rjr573 0 Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Hello everyone. I'm a newbie to Saiga's even though I own many other guns. Last week I bought a Saiga .308 with the 21" barrel and a .223 with the 16" barrel... Last night bought a 5.45x39 with a 20" barrel. I've seen plenty of the 16" barrel 5.45's for sale but wanted to try the longer version since I already have the short one in .223 I'm curious as to how many other's have tried the 20" version in this caliber and if anyone has info on how the two barrel lengths compare ? Thanks. Randy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
onehappycampster 25 Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Differences in what? Accuracy? Lots of variables. My 16" 5.45 shoots better than I can. My blasted eyes are aging fast but I still manage 1.5" groups @ 100 yds w/surplus ammo. The longer 5.45 projectile has a better ballistic coeffeient than the shorter 5.56 projectile. Longer barrels on guns can cause barrel whip which decreases accuracy. Shorter barrels tend to be more rigid, thus more accurate. Everything has its cost though. Longer barrels=higher vilocity & longer range b/c of more complete powder burn. Everything is a trade off and at the end of the day the AK design will far out-perform what most shooters need to accomplish. All the above statements are not always agreed upon but widely discussed. You may have opened a can of worms. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted March 19, 2013 Report Share Posted March 19, 2013 You should get better velocity, but not only because of a tad more powder burn, but also more spin on the bullet. Accuracy is debatable on whether or not it will be a noticeable difference at 100m. Longer ranges is likely where you'll see the difference. The SGL31 I have is more capable than I am and has a 16" bbl. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted March 20, 2013 Report Share Posted March 20, 2013 4 extra inches of barrel can never hurt. I have the 20 inch 7.62x39 and it shoots really well. I assume that in 5.45 it would be like comparing an M4 to an M16. I reckon it would be safe to say that you would get tighter groups at longer distances and higher velocity. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YodaMaadi 3 Posted March 20, 2013 Report Share Posted March 20, 2013 I have Saiga 5.45's in both 16" and 20". I have been able to get groups of 2" at 100yds with both rifles consistently using surplus (The 20" does not like Wolf ammo... groups open up around 4"). I have not tested them side by side at longer ranges than 100yds but I do suspect the 20" would probably get better performance at ranges past 200yds. The longest I have shot them was 200yds and both group well but I did not measure the group size at that range. I do notice one difference though. The 20" does perform better when the guns heat up. My group sizes open up noticeably more on the 16" Saiga once I have put a few mags through them. I tend to think that this is more related to the barrel thickness and not the length. The 20" has the same barrel profile as the .308. Another guy on the board did chrono the 20" and I believe he got speeds about 150 FPS faster than the 16". 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rjr573 0 Posted March 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2013 Thanks for the replies. I was hoping to hear from someone who owned both. In my experiance with any similar rifles of any type, the longer barrels are just nicer to shoot. Less recoil & muzzle rise, muzzle blast and flash. Also easier to shoot accurate with iron sights. If I did'nt already have the .223 Saiga with a 16" barrel I probley would have bought the 5.45 in 16" but figured why have two similar calibers in the same barrel length. YodaMaadi,,, so you are saying the 20" 5.45 barrel is thicker then the 16" 5.45 barrel ? Today I just picked up my .308 Saiga which has the 21" barrel. I saw these are available in 16" too but feel that short of barrel is kind of a waste of the .308 round's potential. Mostly though it is the added recoil and muzzle blast / flash that kept me away from the 16" .308 Randy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DEshooter 1 Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 Open the can, I can understand how a 16" barrel MAY be more accurate at 100yds (less barrel whip). But I cannot understand how the longer barrel would suddenly become more accurate at greater distances? Did the greater barrel whip of the longer barrel suddenly disappear because the target was moved to a greater distance? I can see a barrel heating up and that having some "accuracy" affect on both barrels? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
onehappycampster 25 Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 View these videos. If you know anything at all about precision rifles you'll quickly see why the Kalash design is not precision. It may not hollow a dime at 1000 yards but it works up close and dirty. Embrace it's strengths and realize its weaknesses then go practice. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rjr573 0 Posted March 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 Yea I've seen several slo-mo videos of AK's firing and know they were not designed to be target rifles, nor do I expect them to be. :-) Just curious as to what results other Saiga owners have seen in the two barrel lengths. Thanks. 4 extra inches of barrel can never hurt. I have the 20 inch 7.62x39 and it shoots really well. I assume that in 5.45 it would be like comparing an M4 to an M16. I reckon it would be safe to say that you would get tighter groups at longer distances and higher velocity. This is what I'm thinking too... Just like how the standard 20" barrel SKS is nicer to shoot that the 16" barrel Para-trooper version. :-) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YodaMaadi 3 Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 Yes, my 20" barrel is nearly 1/8" thicker than the 16". Measured with a micrometer just ahead of the gas block the 16" barrel has a diameter of .580" and the 20" has a diameter of .691". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rjr573 0 Posted March 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 Hello again and thanks for the info. That should offset the possible added barrel whip for the extra 4" of barrel length. I will scope the 5.45 and use my 16" .223 for a shorter range defense gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
onehappycampster 25 Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 I hear the Molots and the the VEPRs all have heavier barrels than the Saigas. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 I hear the Molots and the the VEPRs all have heavier barrels than the Saigas. They do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
obiwanbonjovi 337 Posted March 23, 2013 Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 with the 5.45 the 20" seems a bit more accurate. I read a head to head chrony test somewhere and the velocity was much more consistent out of the 20. It seems the 7n6 has not always completed burn out of a 16" but has out of a 20" with the complete burn the velocities and therefore the groupings are much more consistent, 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 with the 5.45 the 20" seems a bit more accurate. I read a head to head chrony test somewhere and the velocity was much more consistent out of the 20. It seems the 7n6 has not always completed burn out of a 16" but has out of a 20" with the complete burn the velocities and therefore the groupings are much more consistent, This is exactly what I was trying to say. Hows your Vepr's doing Obi? I know you picked up a few and was curious how you were liking them. I dont have a 20" 5.45, but I do have a Saiga and a Vepr in this caliber and really cant say that there is a difference between the two in terms of performance other than the obvious. Do you have a 20"? I havent seen too many of these. My 20" 7.62 is badass though. Thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rjr573 0 Posted March 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 Great info, thanks !! I love my 16" .223 and 21" .308 and should have my 20" 5.45 in a few days. Anxious to test the .223 against the 5.45 at 100 yds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sim_Player 1,939 Posted April 8, 2013 Report Share Posted April 8, 2013 With complete powder burn in a 20" barrel, there should be notably less muzzle flash too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
S12KS-K 40 Posted April 9, 2013 Report Share Posted April 9, 2013 (edited) First of all, an AK-74 will compete with most entry level AR's when it comes to accuracy. Especially with good ammo. All barrels whip. What you see the action doing happens only after the bullet has completely left the barrel... What matters most is the barrel harmonics. New production Izhmash and especially VEPR 5.45 rifles are made on precision equipment these days. The barrels are much more consistent. Second, since you got the 20" Saiga, I would definately go with an RPK-74 build. If you choose to do the conversion, let me know if you have any q's. It's super easy and some parts are really cheap (hilman hole plugs, using existing trigger guard). Edited April 9, 2013 by S12KS-K Quote Link to post Share on other sites
S12KS-K 40 Posted April 9, 2013 Report Share Posted April 9, 2013 I hear the Molots and the the VEPRs all have heavier barrels than the Saigas. Molot is the RPK factory. Essentially, VEPR 5.45's are RPK-74's. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
S12KS-K 40 Posted April 9, 2013 Report Share Posted April 9, 2013 (edited) With complete powder burn in a 20" barrel, there should be notably less muzzle flash too. That's true. Though it's worth pointing out that the beauty of the 5.45 round is that it was designed for shorter barrels (16" -) from the drawing board, unlike the 5.56 (20"+ ), due to it's stubby case and powder burn characteristics. IIRC, the powder is faster burning also. It makes a much better SBR round (AKS-74U) for the reasons listed above. Inch for barrel inch, there isn't a significant FPS loss compared with 5.56. If I ever did an AR SBR build, I would use a 5.45 piston upper hands down. I've always considered SBR 5.56/.223 to be, quite frankly, retarded... Edited April 9, 2013 by S12KS-K Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rjr573 0 Posted April 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2013 Hello everyone. Thanks for all the good info so far !! I finally got around to testing my new 20" 5.45 and new 21" .308 tonight and really like them both... Especially like the 20" 5.45 !! Very soft recoil and no muzzle flash with surplus 7n6 in the medium low light just after sunset. Just for comparison I shot my 16" .223 again with Wolf 55 grain ammo which produced quite a large flash. Then I shot some 62 grain Wolf and the flash was not quite as bad as the 55 grain. Kinda surprised at this finding. The .308 has lighter recoil than I expected, feels slightly softer than my Cetme and Fal. Not a big surprise since it has a heavier barrel than both. Also no muzzle flash with the Tula .308 I was using which surprised me given the lighting conditions. I've got 3 identical mount and scope sets for all three so next thing I want to try is 100 yd. groups will all of them. I'm especially curious how the 5.45 and .223 will compare given the different barrel lengths and weights. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
S12KS-K 40 Posted April 10, 2013 Report Share Posted April 10, 2013 Russian .223/5.56 is probably using the same powder as 5.45 or 7.62x39. Can anyone confirm ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted April 13, 2013 Report Share Posted April 13, 2013 Russian .223/5.56 is probably using the same powder as 5.45 or 7.62x39. Can anyone confirm ? Maybe. Hard to say. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LS240 0 Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 I own both a 16" and 20". The 20" is definitely heavier overall and more front heavy of course, but is still manageable if you don't hang tons of crap on it(made that mistake, it's now in a simpler carbine configuration). With the 20" you get about 200fps more muzzle velocity(chronoed myself, ~3150fps vs 2950) and there seems to be less variation in velocity from one shot to the next. My 20" groups about 1/4" or so better than my 16" but they're both under 2" at 100yds with surplus ammo. There's less recoil and muzzle flip with the longer barrel, and theoretically at least the heavier barrel should handle large shot strings better. Basically, the 16" is more than enough rifle and is very nearly as accurate in the real world and the max range difference is marginal, while being lighter and more maneuverable at the same time. But if you want the small performance increase and badass looks of the 20", go for it. I don't regret buying mine that's for sure. As always, the best choice is buying both. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Timber Wolf 0 Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 I don't regret buying mine that's for sure. As always, the best choice is buying both. True that! I have both a 16" & 21" /308 and like them both for what they are. I have the 21" set up as a "Saiganov" with bipod, scope, thumbhole stock, etc. and the 16" is a "CQB" blaster. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
josey88 21 Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 (edited) I have the 20" in .223 and it is as accurate as my 16" AR-15 at 100 meters . I have not tested it at more than that ... I am using Wolf 75gr ammo , which is what I use for my AR that has a 1 to 7 twist and even thou the Saiga is 1 to 9 , it doesn`t seem to matter at that distance , at least . When I bought the Saiga , at first I wanted to be able to mount a bayonet on it (?) but I did not want to deal with the replacing of the front sight and the hassle of sighting it again , etc , etc , so after I threaded the barrel and installed an AK-74 brake , I purchased an M16 bayonet mount (my 20" barrel has the same thickness .591" ) that is a 2 piece clamp , hold together with 2 screws , and mounted it behind the front sight . I had to modify the end of the bayo mount a little to be able to insert a russian bayo , but no big deal , just a little filing , and the russian bayo inserts perfectly . Anyway , it turns out that because this bayo mount is kind of heavy , it is functioning as a compensator of sorts and when I shoot it , the barrel doesn`t even moves ... no whipping or stringing which is great . The weight of the bayo and the brake contributed to steady the barrel , something that I like a lot . Maybe that is why this thing is so accurate . The certificate of accuracy that came with my Saiga states extreme spread of impacts on 4 shots at 100meters is 72mms accuracy of fire , so this gun was accurate from factory , to begin with . I think I got lucky on this one . Edited July 29, 2013 by josey88 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted July 30, 2013 Report Share Posted July 30, 2013 At 100 yds, I dont think you'll see much of a difference. Its at 250+ yd ranges that you'll see the difference. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ron-saiga 0 Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 (edited) Good info! Edited September 8, 2013 by Ron-sega Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NuJudge 1 Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 My experience with longer barreled target rifles, and hence a longer sight radius, is that consistent head positioning is not as critical. When I switched from the M1 and M1A (longer sight radius) to the AR (shorter sight radius) for NRA Highpower competition, I had to pay a lot of attention to consistent head position, or my group could easily move from the 10 ring to the 9 ring, and might move it to the 8 ring. All other things being the same, I think you will be more likely to put a bullet where you want it with the 20" barrel. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sim_Player 1,939 Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 So many variables, caliber, head position, sights used, barrel thickness, barrel length, bullet weight, powder, to mention just a few variables. No wonder, why I love this hobby! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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