Wolverine 10,360 Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Ammo is the better bet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted February 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 ... The problem with your gushing enthusiasm is that any system of currency not made of fine metals is fiat money. Is a few 1s and 0s in a computer really different than a printed piece of paper? Hell, most of my "money" is just numbers is some computers anyway. Whether it's a government or a corporation making the fiat money concerns me not. That which has been created out of nothing, in the end is nothing. It is a placeholder. A promise. And promises... Well, they get broken. There are some factually inaccurate statements here - by one common definition, all state-issued currency is fiat money. Fiat money can be defined as any money declared legal tender by state fiat - regardless of whether that money is represented by "fine metals." Your suggestion that currency is either fiat money (by which I believe you mean, it is not representative currency) or it is backed up by metal is also patently false. Precious metal has been a convenient backer of currencies because of its properties - rarity, portability, permanence, its ability to be measured and split into denominations, how readily it can be isolated from ore, and the ease with which it can be worked - perhaps also that it can be made very shiny and attractive. Iron makes a poor precious metal because it rusts - it lacks permanence. Copper makes a poor precious metal because it, too, can oxidize away into nothing - and it is also far too common. Nickel is a bit too common to be a precious metal. Gold, silver, and platinum-group metals all fit the bill. They're rare, easy to work, and they stand the test of time. Under other worldly circumstances, nickel, chromium, niobium, tantalum or indium might have been considered precious metals. Societies have used all manner of representative money, even before the existence of coinage. It is well-documented that many ancient societies issued chits or other representative bearer items to represent the storage of commodities by a central authority - and those chits could be freely exchanged, and the current holder able to exchange the chit for the commodity it represented. Source: http://academiccommons.columbia.edu/download/fedora_content/download/ac:114139/CONTENT/econ_0102_08.pdf Bitcoin (and other similar cryptocurrencies) represent a new kind of currency system that has never been tried before - nor could it have been, without modern technology. It is inherently flawed, as any monetary system. If what I've read is accurate, the system only works for a finite period, until all the bitcoins have been mined - after which dramatic deflation is inevitable. Did you even read what I wrote? I love it when people correct me on what I didn't say. I said money MADE of fine metals. That is not a difficult concept. I'm sorry it confused you. I did not say or mean representative currency. If you don't like the word fiat money then don't use it. I don't give a fuck one way or the other. Money is not value. Money in all forms is only a placeholder for value IF somebody agrees to give you something of value for it. Even a solid gold bar is worth nothing if nobody wants it. But historically people have always wanted gold so it's a fairly safe bet. But money "backed by gold" or "tied to the value of gold" is still just a placeholder. As others have said (and I have said myself) the metals I choose to store my value in are lead, copper, brass, and steel. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 ... The problem with your gushing enthusiasm is that any system of currency not made of fine metals is fiat money. Is a few 1s and 0s in a computer really different than a printed piece of paper? Hell, most of my "money" is just numbers is some computers anyway. Whether it's a government or a corporation making the fiat money concerns me not. That which has been created out of nothing, in the end is nothing. It is a placeholder. A promise. And promises... Well, they get broken. There are some factually inaccurate statements here - by one common definition, all state-issued currency is fiat money. Fiat money can be defined as any money declared legal tender by state fiat - regardless of whether that money is represented by "fine metals." Your suggestion that currency is either fiat money (by which I believe you mean, it is not representative currency) or it is backed up by metal is also patently false. Precious metal has been a convenient backer of currencies because of its properties - rarity, portability, permanence, its ability to be measured and split into denominations, how readily it can be isolated from ore, and the ease with which it can be worked - perhaps also that it can be made very shiny and attractive. Iron makes a poor precious metal because it rusts - it lacks permanence. Copper makes a poor precious metal because it, too, can oxidize away into nothing - and it is also far too common. Nickel is a bit too common to be a precious metal. Gold, silver, and platinum-group metals all fit the bill. They're rare, easy to work, and they stand the test of time. Under other worldly circumstances, nickel, chromium, niobium, tantalum or indium might have been considered precious metals. Societies have used all manner of representative money, even before the existence of coinage. It is well-documented that many ancient societies issued chits or other representative bearer items to represent the storage of commodities by a central authority - and those chits could be freely exchanged, and the current holder able to exchange the chit for the commodity it represented. Source: http://academiccommons.columbia.edu/download/fedora_content/download/ac:114139/CONTENT/econ_0102_08.pdf Bitcoin (and other similar cryptocurrencies) represent a new kind of currency system that has never been tried before - nor could it have been, without modern technology. It is inherently flawed, as any monetary system. If what I've read is accurate, the system only works for a finite period, until all the bitcoins have been mined - after which dramatic deflation is inevitable. Did you even read what I wrote? I love it when people correct me on what I didn't say. I said money MADE of fine metals. That is not a difficult concept. I'm sorry it confused you. I did not say or mean representative currency. If you don't like the word fiat money then don't use it. I don't give a fuck one way or the other. Money is not value. Money in all forms is only a placeholder for value IF somebody agrees to give you something of value for it. Even a solid gold bar is worth nothing if nobody wants it. But historically people have always wanted gold so it's a fairly safe bet. But money "backed by gold" or "tied to the value of gold" is still just a placeholder. As others have said (and I have said myself) the metals I choose to store my value in are lead, copper, brass, and steel. Well, I certainly wasn't trying to be a confrontational asshole - way to take it there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Maxwelhse 1,285 Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 hmm... maybe they could put a chip in your hand... that would allow you to make your purchases in the currency of the time... and track everything... ME? I will pass... too revelationistic for this boy... Where's the LIKE button.... when you need it? Well said. It's right here: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/38765-to-do-list-for-the-mods/?p=962708 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
storm6490 2,768 Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 My tinfoil C.T. is that bitcoin is conditioning for our youth to accept a global currency. Too late to get in as an investment. Mark my words, the feds will hack and shut this down to protect their printing press. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jpanzer 1,265 Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 Didn't any of you people read the fricking link I posted?? One of the MAJOR Bitcoin exchanges just went poof. Thats it, one day it was here, the next gone, and now there are charges of malfeasance. The money those people spent on Bitcoin with that exchange literally evaporated into thin air. They will never recover a single penny of it. Lesson here... when you invest in a VIRTUAL commodity you never actually possess a damn thing. Gold or other precious metals will always retain value of some sort because they are TANGIBLE. Damn people, some of y'all can get outright stupid..... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted February 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 Didn't any of you people read the fricking link I posted?? You mean the one you posted 2 days after mine where I posted a story about the exhange shutting down? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jpanzer 1,265 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Didn't any of you people read the fricking link I posted?? You mean the one you posted 2 days after mine where I posted a story about the exhange shutting down? Sorry Darth, not trying to steal your VIRTUAL thunder here.... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WardenWolf 6 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Given that the vast majority of Bitcoin transactions, by monetary value at least, are for illegal goods ands services, plus all the negative publicity lately, it is only a very matter of time until it is banned by most major world governments. Already at least one US senator is calling for its ban. The reasons for its ban will be: 1. It cannot be regulated, which NO government likes. 2. It cannot be easily traced, which lends itself to criminal activity. 3. It is not safe because of the risk of losing it all with no recourse. 4. It is primarily used for illegal purposes. It is only a matter of time until the simple act of converting money into Bitcoin is classified as money laundering. No US entity will legally be able to accept it or convert it. The US may not be the first Western nation to outlaw it, but once it starts the hammer will fall quickly around the globe. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I don't think there is any reason to insult our fellow members over a discussion about bitcoins. It's just not worth getting all worked up over. We all have a lot in common here and I think you guys are great. I think we all can agree that buying bitcoins rite now would not be a good move. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
magsite20 1,664 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 my local liquor store or bar doesn't take it as a from of payment so I'd be tempted to say they have no value but they don't swap booze for ammo either so who the hell knows what has value. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I remember hearing about bitcoin years ago. I figured they would hit some insane high, a few people would become millionaires off it, then it would crash into worthlessness. Without something to control the value it will always ride a roller-coaster of highs and lows. An unstable currency is worthless for buying and selling. The US dollar only works because we all accept that it is worth something and is fairly stable. Day to day stability is more important than face value. In business, I need to take in funds and then buy material and pay for labor. If the value changes substantially day to day, I have to raise my prices to protect myself from the lows. Which then makes the currency have less buying value. Bitcoin fluctuates to much for a legitimate business to use it. I take credit cards through my website, and all I ever see is numbers on a computer screen. At some point I get paid and then I can turn that into paper money, but the vast majority never leaves digital form. Pretty much the same concept as bitcoin but it is government controlled. Honestly the one thing government is useful for is the creation of trade currency. Digital funds are a hell of a lot easier than slicing fractions of a gram of gold. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
storm6490 2,768 Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I remember hearing about bitcoin years ago. I figured they would hit some insane high, a few people would become millionaires off it, then it would crash into worthlessness. Without something to control the value it will always ride a roller-coaster of highs and lows. An unstable currency is worthless for buying and selling. The US dollar only works because we all accept that it is worth something and is fairly stable. Day to day stability is more important than face value. In business, I need to take in funds and then buy material and pay for labor. If the value changes substantially day to day, I have to raise my prices to protect myself from the lows. Which then makes the currency have less buying value. Bitcoin fluctuates to much for a legitimate business to use it. I take credit cards through my website, and all I ever see is numbers on a computer screen. At some point I get paid and then I can turn that into paper money, but the vast majority never leaves digital form. Pretty much the same concept as bitcoin but it is government controlled. Honestly the one thing government is useful for is the creation of trade currency. Digital funds are a hell of a lot easier than slicing fractions of a gram of gold. have you seen the valcambi gold bars? sky high premium over spot but cool. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
liberty -r- death 1,445 Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 I should been called Vapor Coin. I would find it insane to invest money into virtually nothing since it doesn't actually exist. You know the old saying about fools and their money. . . 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
uzitiger 193 Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 I should been called Vapor Coin. I would find it insane to invest money into virtually nothing since it doesn't actually exist. You know the old saying about fools and their money. . . I never believed this Bitcoin stuff and for some people it became Vapor Coin. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yakdung 2,926 Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 Deadly: http://nypost.com/2014/03/05/bitcoin-firm-ceo-found-dead-in-suspected-suicide/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 my credit union doesnt accept bitcoin, checked the other day. what good is this shit? someone please explain this one to me, cause i still aint getting it....my dollar worldwide is still more powerful than any currency on the market, as far as tradeability....WHY would i even use this? to buy drugs in the mail? someone really needs to explain this to me, because im just confused why the hell i would even use this shit. seems like a cartel plan to launder money, if you ask me..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 Looks like this one might have killed herself over the bitcoin fiasco: http://www.cnbc.com/id/101468694?__source=xfinity|mod&par=xfinity Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jerry52 893 Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 I remember hearing about bitcoin years ago. I figured they would hit some insane high, a few people would become millionaires off it, then it would crash into worthlessness. Without something to control the value it will always ride a roller-coaster of highs and lows. An unstable currency is worthless for buying and selling. The US dollar only works because we all accept that it is worth something and is fairly stable. Day to day stability is more important than face value. In business, I need to take in funds and then buy material and pay for labor. If the value changes substantially day to day, I have to raise my prices to protect myself from the lows. Which then makes the currency have less buying value. Bitcoin fluctuates to much for a legitimate business to use it. I take credit cards through my website, and all I ever see is numbers on a computer screen. At some point I get paid and then I can turn that into paper money, but the vast majority never leaves digital form. Pretty much the same concept as bitcoin but it is government controlled. Honestly the one thing government is useful for is the creation of trade currency. Digital funds are a hell of a lot easier than slicing fractions of a gram of gold. If you have electricity! and a web! otherwise you got shit! But if you have 22 LR you might have something worth while. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yakdung 2,926 Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 Poontang baby: http://www.zdnet.com/the-worlds-first-bitcoin-escort-agency-7000021209/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NM0 586 Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) You all see these? http://mag.newsweek.com/2014/03/14/bitcoin-satoshi-nakamoto.html http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/03/06/newsweek-relaunches/6141761/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=206567 http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/07/us-bitcoin-inventor-idUSBREA252D820140307 Edited March 7, 2014 by NM0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paulnj088 10 Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 stay away from bitcoins the CEO of bitcoin was just found dead in her house not sure where but its true Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 stay away from bitcoins the CEO of bitcoin was just found dead in her house not sure where but its true CEO... Of a distributed quasi-anarchist cryptocurrency...? Figure that one out for yourself. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) removed Edited March 9, 2014 by Ben Vampatella Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) all of that other shit asdie, why would i agree to this monetary system? MY GREENBACK AINT ENOUGH? SINCE WHEN My dollar is the most powerful unit of transfer in the world. WHY why would i use this or accept this payment method? like i said, my dollar is the shit. Edited March 9, 2014 by Ben Vampatella Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 A few administrations in a row have fucked up the value of the dollar through bad policy. It does not have the value it once did in international markets. I believe it is only a matter of time before it loses its place as the world's reserve currency. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 I am not so sure it hasnt already...LOL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Not quite yet - but international confidence in the dollar is way down. The issues with the government shutdown and near default on the national debt shook world markets. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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