Rayn2ravage 37 Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 (edited) Ive decided to explore foreign territory and build my first full on precision rifle. I expect a lot of jokes on how much of a noob I am to this but oh wells. I want to be build something that an shoot .308 effectively out to 500-1000 yards accurately at man sized targets Please help me understand these figures for the distances I want to shoot at. Contours, 4 vs 5r rifling, 1:10 vs 1:12 twist rates trigger set up Quality Chassis vs the other Whether or not i should get a barrel from krieger or another well known barrel maker or use a regular stock one 20 inch - 26 inch To flute or not to flute... that is the question quality scopes good receiver & bolt If there's anything I'm forgetting please let me know. Im taking classes this summer a Sniper Co. here in Fort Wayne to learn how to shoot at these distances. Ill be using a buddy's rem 700 sps tactical to practice with. Thanks guys update: So far from my own research I'm leaning towards a: 1:10 twist 5r rifling 24 inch no fluting to keep barrel harmonics heavy barrel AICS chassis Timney 3.5 pound trigger Sightron SIII SS scope. Opinions? Edited May 17, 2013 by rayne2ravage Quote Link to post Share on other sites
travistp 63 Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 I would go with a .264 . Very accurate and flat just not the abundance of ammo as .308. My father has a krieger .264 barrel he had made after we built mine. Awesome barrel. Optics I love ziess you can never go wrong . A gun is only as good as the optics you have on it. Or go U.S. Optics .. I like a 6.5 like I said.. good luck on your adventure and only one way to learn and its by doing it not knowing anything. Trial and error. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 .260 rem. (.308 necked down to 6.5) Federal makes gold medal match ammo for it. Otherwise, you're hard pressed to beat a Savage in .308 for the money and they are dead nuts accurate. My .270 Win out of the box would shoot groups under a dime using Hornady Ammo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
breid1970 327 Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 At what range did you get that particular shot group? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Big John! 2,062 Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 My .270 Win out of the box would shoot groups under a dime using Hornady Ammo. Ummm That group is OVER the dime Quote Link to post Share on other sites
read_the_wall 614 Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 FIXED 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rayn2ravage 37 Posted May 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 I would go with a .264 . Very accurate and flat just not the abundance of ammo as .308. My father has a krieger .264 barrel he had made after we built mine. Awesome barrel. Optics I love ziess you can never go wrong . A gun is only as good as the optics you have on it. Or go U.S. Optics .. I like a 6.5 like I said.. good luck on your adventure and only one way to learn and its by doing it not knowing anything. Trial and error. How do you go about ordering a krieger barrel? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jerry52 893 Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 Start with Money the rest will follow. Working on my own project good luck Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rayn2ravage 37 Posted May 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 Start with Money the rest will follow. Working on my own project good luck I get that i just dont understand the krieger website order process Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuffetDestroyer 969 Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) If you are buying a Krieger barrel and putting together a quality rifle, I wouldn't waste my time with that optic unless you plan on building a benchgun that you precision roll your own loads by hand weighing each component on precision equipment. For man-size targets, that scope will not do you any favors at high power. Get a Nightforce or IOR that maxes under 25x (or any of the European glass like Ziess, Meopta, Swarovski) if you plan on spending that kind of money. If you don't like them, they retain their value rather than dropping about 40-50% in the used market like most Chinese scopes. Super Sniper is a great budget option to learn on and you will get most of your money back when you decide to upgrade. Also 1/8 MOA clicks are going to annoy you as you will have hundreds of clicks to get out to distance. Go for 1/4 MOA or .1 Mil adjustments. For practical shooting, a fixed 10x is all you need to your distance on man-sized targets. If you want to become a benchrest guy, then you can opt for the powers over 20x. I am willing to bet that you will be sorely disappointed thinking a 50x scope is going to help you as you will see your heartbeat shake the world and it will take you 10 minutes to find a new target, not to mention clarity and contrast is going to look like Vaseline. Clarity is more important than magnification. A good 10x or 15x scope with good quality glass will allow you to see your holes at 300 yards. Regarding your questions, 4 vs. 5 r is how many grooves you have in the barrel. The lower the ratio of barrel twist, the longer and heavier the bullets you can use. It means there is one full rotation of the lands per every _ inches of barrel. A 1 in 10 is ideal for .308 so you aren't capped at 168's or 175's (grains). The longer heavier bullets typically experience less drop and wind drift than what you see in most hunting and target ammo as they have a higher ballistic coefficient. Check out http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi and plug in some potential loads to see what your trajectory and wind drifts are at different velocities. This is one of the most important learning tools in shooting past 300 yards. Remember that when a bullet approaches the sound barrier, the sonic pressure wave goes away and destabilizes the bullet. Where you go trans-sonic is usually your maximum distance before accuracy goes to hell. At 1,000 yards, a 20" .308 with a moderately warm load for 155 Grain Scenar or 175 grain match king bullets should stay supersonic well past 1,000 yards before it destabilizes. However the more barrel length, the faster your velocity, which makes it require less dope or compensation for wind and bullet drop. I will second the Savage recommendation (maybe an Model 10fcp-k - it has 24" barrel, accutrigger and accustock) and put a 10x Super Sniper on it. Get the rifle in .308 and try Federal Gold Medal Match, Black Hills and Hornady match loads. For under $1,200 for the rifle/scope rig, you will have a great shooting rifle to learn on that will retain a big chunk of its value and you could later upgrade yourself with better components like a Krieger barrel (need a special wrench and headspace gauges), HS Precision stock, etc. Good target barrels don't stay tight for max accuracy for very long (compared to the field lives of military barrels at 10-30k rounds). Your max accuracy period will likely be 2-3000 rounds - after that it will still shoot, but the groups won't be as tight as they once were. If you learn on a custom built rifle with a Krieger, you probably won't be using it near to its potential until several hundred rounds or possibly into the thousands of rounds. If you don't reload, it is going to get really expensive really quickly (match loads cost between $1 and $3+ per round and you can load them for under $.60/round with the same components) so the cheaper rifle will allow you to learn how to do that for when you do get that $2500+ custom rifle built. Edited May 17, 2013 by BuffetDestroyer 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Syndicate 812 Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 Look into barrel harmonics as I said before. for scope get a FFP or first focal plane optic I have a savage Model 10 FCP-SR you can buy, and it's already camo for you from the factory. Threaded barrel. (this one only comes in .308) all the accu stuff mag, trigger, stock, yes seriously mag says accumag on it. It's a 10 rd magazine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Venia 249 Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 If you are buying a Krieger barrel and putting together a quality rifle, I wouldn't waste my time with that optic unless you plan on building a benchgun that you precision roll your own loads by hand weighing each component on precision equipment. For man-size targets, that scope will not do you any favors at high power. Get a Nightforce or IOR that maxes under 25x (or any of the European glass like Ziess, Meopta, Swarovski) if you plan on spending that kind of money. If you don't like them, they retain their value rather than dropping about 40-50% in the used market like most Chinese scopes. Super Sniper is a great budget option to learn on and you will get most of your money back when you decide to upgrade. Also 1/8 MOA clicks are going to annoy you as you will have hundreds of clicks to get out to distance. Go for 1/4 MOA or .1 Mil adjustments. For practical shooting, a fixed 10x is all you need to your distance on man-sized targets. If you want to become a benchrest guy, then you can opt for the powers over 20x. I am willing to bet that you will be sorely disappointed thinking a 50x scope is going to help you as you will see your heartbeat shake the world and it will take you 10 minutes to find a new target, not to mention clarity and contrast is going to look like Vaseline. Clarity is more important than magnification. A good 10x or 15x scope with good quality glass will allow you to see your holes at 300 yards. Regarding your questions, 4 vs. 5 r is how many grooves you have in the barrel. The lower the ratio of barrel twist, the longer and heavier the bullets you can use. It means there is one full rotation of the lands per every _ inches of barrel. A 1 in 10 is ideal for .308 so you aren't capped at 168's or 175's (grains). The longer heavier bullets typically experience less drop and wind drift than what you see in most hunting and target ammo as they have a higher ballistic coefficient. Check out http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi and plug in some potential loads to see what your trajectory and wind drifts are at different velocities. This is one of the most important learning tools in shooting past 300 yards. Remember that when a bullet approaches the sound barrier, the sonic pressure wave goes away and destabilizes the bullet. Where you go trans-sonic is usually your maximum distance before accuracy goes to hell. At 1,000 yards, a 20" .308 with a moderately warm load for 155 Grain Scenar or 175 grain match king bullets should stay supersonic well past 1,000 yards before it destabilizes. However the more barrel length, the faster your velocity, which makes it require less dope or compensation for wind and bullet drop. I will second the Savage recommendation (maybe an Model 10fcp-k - it has 24" barrel, accutrigger and accustock) and put a 10x Super Sniper on it. Get the rifle in .308 and try Federal Gold Medal Match, Black Hills and Hornady match loads. For under $1,200 for the rifle/scope rig, you will have a great shooting rifle to learn on that will retain a big chunk of its value and you could later upgrade yourself with better components like a Krieger barrel (need a special wrench and headspace gauges), HS Precision stock, etc. Good target barrels don't stay tight for max accuracy for very long (compared to the field lives of military barrels at 10-30k rounds). Your max accuracy period will likely be 2-3000 rounds - after that it will still shoot, but the groups won't be as tight as they once were. If you learn on a custom built rifle with a Krieger, you probably won't be using it near to its potential until several hundred rounds or possibly into the thousands of rounds. If you don't reload, it is going to get really expensive really quickly (match loads cost between $1 and $3+ per round and you can load them for under $.60/round with the same components) so the cheaper rifle will allow you to learn how to do that for when you do get that $2500+ custom rifle built. That's good stuff, you taught me a lot right there...thanks dude!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 Krieger makes a good barrel, but I would rather have a Stainless Pac-Nor Super Match. Tony 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jerry52 893 Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 This is where I'm moving. $$$$$$$$$$$ but if It make me happy! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 Do you reload? If so and I were you I may get something other than .308. But if you are going to depend on factory ammo there's nor much choice other than .308. If I were you I would lean toward a savage, the new one that's magazine fed and has a threaded barrel. I would be happy with a shorter than 20" barrel myself, like 18 you lose no accuracy. Lose some muzzle voliecty but for me the trade off fir a shorter rifle would be worth it. If I was worried about shooting 700+ yards I'd want more power than .308 win like 300 win mag or .338 lapua Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rayn2ravage 37 Posted May 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 If you are buying a Krieger barrel and putting together a quality rifle, I wouldn't waste my time with that optic unless you plan on building a benchgun that you precision roll your own loads by hand weighing each component on precision equipment. For man-size targets, that scope will not do you any favors at high power. Get a Nightforce or IOR that maxes under 25x (or any of the European glass like Ziess, Meopta, Swarovski) if you plan on spending that kind of money. If you don't like them, they retain their value rather than dropping about 40-50% in the used market like most Chinese scopes. Super Sniper is a great budget option to learn on and you will get most of your money back when you decide to upgrade. Also 1/8 MOA clicks are going to annoy you as you will have hundreds of clicks to get out to distance. Go for 1/4 MOA or .1 Mil adjustments. For practical shooting, a fixed 10x is all you need to your distance on man-sized targets. If you want to become a benchrest guy, then you can opt for the powers over 20x. I am willing to bet that you will be sorely disappointed thinking a 50x scope is going to help you as you will see your heartbeat shake the world and it will take you 10 minutes to find a new target, not to mention clarity and contrast is going to look like Vaseline. Clarity is more important than magnification. A good 10x or 15x scope with good quality glass will allow you to see your holes at 300 yards. Regarding your questions, 4 vs. 5 r is how many grooves you have in the barrel. The lower the ratio of barrel twist, the longer and heavier the bullets you can use. It means there is one full rotation of the lands per every _ inches of barrel. A 1 in 10 is ideal for .308 so you aren't capped at 168's or 175's (grains). The longer heavier bullets typically experience less drop and wind drift than what you see in most hunting and target ammo as they have a higher ballistic coefficient. Check out http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi and plug in some potential loads to see what your trajectory and wind drifts are at different velocities. This is one of the most important learning tools in shooting past 300 yards. Remember that when a bullet approaches the sound barrier, the sonic pressure wave goes away and destabilizes the bullet. Where you go trans-sonic is usually your maximum distance before accuracy goes to hell. At 1,000 yards, a 20" .308 with a moderately warm load for 155 Grain Scenar or 175 grain match king bullets should stay supersonic well past 1,000 yards before it destabilizes. However the more barrel length, the faster your velocity, which makes it require less dope or compensation for wind and bullet drop. I will second the Savage recommendation (maybe an Model 10fcp-k - it has 24" barrel, accutrigger and accustock) and put a 10x Super Sniper on it. Get the rifle in .308 and try Federal Gold Medal Match, Black Hills and Hornady match loads. For under $1,200 for the rifle/scope rig, you will have a great shooting rifle to learn on that will retain a big chunk of its value and you could later upgrade yourself with better components like a Krieger barrel (need a special wrench and headspace gauges), HS Precision stock, etc. Good target barrels don't stay tight for max accuracy for very long (compared to the field lives of military barrels at 10-30k rounds). Your max accuracy period will likely be 2-3000 rounds - after that it will still shoot, but the groups won't be as tight as they once were. If you learn on a custom built rifle with a Krieger, you probably won't be using it near to its potential until several hundred rounds or possibly into the thousands of rounds. If you don't reload, it is going to get really expensive really quickly (match loads cost between $1 and $3+ per round and you can load them for under $.60/round with the same components) so the cheaper rifle will allow you to learn how to do that for when you do get that $2500+ custom rifle built. Thanks for this info. I have a lot to think about now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JonnyDingDongs 158 Posted May 18, 2013 Report Share Posted May 18, 2013 If you make it out to Hillside on the 26th, the long-range guys from INS should be there. I highly recommend picking their brains for a bit. They're already talking about seeing who can ring the 1,000yd steel first. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rayn2ravage 37 Posted May 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2013 Im curious now about what buffet destroyer said about barrels losing their max accuracy after 2-3k rounds. So is that for all barrel makers or just a general statement for all guns in general? Just wondering if i should be looking elsewhere for stronger barrels. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Syndicate 812 Posted May 18, 2013 Report Share Posted May 18, 2013 Im curious now about what buffet destroyer said about barrels losing their max accuracy after 2-3k rounds. So is that for all barrel makers or just a general statement for all guns in general? Just wondering if i should be looking elsewhere for stronger barrels. No it's just common with precision rifle barrels that stainless and uncoated doesn't last forever, their are a few exceptions to that rule out there though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rayn2ravage 37 Posted May 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2013 Im curious now about what buffet destroyer said about barrels losing their max accuracy after 2-3k rounds. So is that for all barrel makers or just a general statement for all guns in general? Just wondering if i should be looking elsewhere for stronger barrels. No it's just common with precision rifle barrels that stainless and uncoated doesn't last forever, their are a few exceptions to that rule out there though. Well I would think I would want the best barrel that would last the longest. What are these exceptions you speak of? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrThunder88 912 Posted May 18, 2013 Report Share Posted May 18, 2013 .22LR, mostly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rayn2ravage 37 Posted May 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2013 Dude what the heck is that display picture from it looks familiar. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
storm6490 2,768 Posted May 20, 2013 Report Share Posted May 20, 2013 (edited) I would suggest you build your first model 700. If you start with a good action, you can work it up as the years go by. Start out simple and learn how it all goes together, shoot the hell out of it and improve it as you improve with the rifle. I have a custom elk rifle now that started in the hands of a dead Nazi and ended up all sorts of american parts on it! MidwayUSA and Brownells have all the tools and data needed to make a good rifle. To make a great one it will take you years or you can just go buy a surgeon. It may sometimes be cheaper to just go buy one but making a bolt action rifle yours is too much fun! Try to copy your friends rifle in specs. The H bar is not needed but if you only sit on a bench and don't need to hike with the rifle or move around quickly it will be more accurate if you can shoot on that level. Learn your rifle and your dope before you get to class. Making the shot and knowing your dope is only a very small part of sniper school or a sniper type class. You will be able to absorb the more advanced stuff in detail if you already have the marksmanship part down. Good luck! Edited May 20, 2013 by Stryker0946 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thatoneguy 5 Posted May 20, 2013 Report Share Posted May 20, 2013 ^this I just started my first build myself on a 700. Im about $500 into it smooth action and nice trigger on it Cant as for more Remington 700 30-06 Black hawk bipod and a bushnell 4x12x40 scope Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted May 20, 2013 Report Share Posted May 20, 2013 People love them some Rem700s. I have shot Remington 700s. Winchester 70s. Savage 111's (Long action Savage. Short action is the 11). Tikka T3s. In order of Smooth action and nice trigger: Tikka T3 Savage 111 Stock Saiga-12 Rem 700 Win 70 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thatoneguy 5 Posted May 20, 2013 Report Share Posted May 20, 2013 For a factory rifle its not to bad granted it could be better but the trigger has almost no creep to it It just breaks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted May 20, 2013 Report Share Posted May 20, 2013 I'm not going to go on at what i dislike about the Rem700. They have a large following. It is my opinion that one can get MORE gun for their money buying a Savage or Tikka than a Rem700. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dubya 198 Posted May 20, 2013 Report Share Posted May 20, 2013 I'm not going to go on at what i dislike about the Rem700. They have a large following. It is my opinion that one can get MORE gun for their money buying a Savage or Tikka than a Rem700. YES! I 100% agree. I'd never ever touch a Remington for multiple reasons. I like my Kimber and Winchester bolt guns Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaPD 408 Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 Precision rifles are no different than race cars and boats. They all cost cubic dollars to keep them running, and lots of them. I own several long range guns and have shot long range competitions for years. If I had the money back that I've spent on all of these things, I could send my kid to college. You are on the right track with doing your research, but I have a suggestion. Borrow your friends rifle and take the class that you have scheduled for this summer. If you take the class and still feel like shooting long range, then move forward with your build. Or, buy something a little cheaper and ease your way into it. There is no worse feeling than dropping a metric ton of cash into something that you may not want to do a year from now due to the costs involved, because you will NEVER recoup your money back. Try it out, have fun and enjoy yourself..............then think about spending money, lots of money. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
storm6490 2,768 Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 Just to clarify. The 700 is a type of action not specific to Remington. It's the most common and popular action. I'm talking about buying an action based on the model 700, not buying some wannabe sako piece of shit tikka and modifying it. I like the Jense and Surgeon actions. Start with a good foundation, a good receiver. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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