Saiga 12, buy now, or wait?

[Remek 771]

I am thinking to buy myself a Saiga-12 for Christmas this year.

 

I see prices seem to be about $700 for an unconverted Saiga-12, currently.  

 

Questions:

 

1.  Has anyone seen any better prices?  Where?

 

2.  Do you think prices will come down more, and maybe I should wait a little while longer before buying?

 

Thanks!

[menace667 194]

K-var has a product called thr SLG12-08 for $889 (out of stock now, but you can call and see when the next batch will arrive) which is a better deal than a bone stock saiga for $700. As far as price goes, it is a crap shoot on what will happen. They may come down some more as the panic buying stops, unless something else happens to create another.

 

If you have the cash handy i would keep an eye out on gunbroker.com, gunsamerica.com, armslist (local to you only), and any other local websites where people sell firearms and wait for someone in need to see for a good deal.

 

Plus, if you do a lot of window shopping you will see what the trend for prices is and be able to take advantage of it accordingly.

[pedal2alloy 206]

What would bring the price down is increased supply or decreased demand.  What would raise the price is some kind of bad thing happening and some kind of media firestorm.

 

You just need to figure out what you think is more likely

[Remek 771]

Pedal: I understood that, but the opinions of people I consider more knowledgable than me w/r/t these issues were wanted.

 

It could be that I am a fool and don't know where to look.  It could be that everyone thinks there will be another serious attack on 2A soon, which will raise prices.  I just want to get the consensus.

 

 (IMHO they have generally dropped the federal-level attacks on 2A, opting to go state-by-state to eventually get the basis to go for an amendment to the constitution - meaning: help fight them at the state level, give to your local organizations!)

Edited October 2, 2013 by Remek

[menace667 194]

The federal assault on the 2A is now at the international level with the attempting to backdoor the NATO small arms treaty. As long as the south, southwest, and midwest exist a ratification to the second will not happen. The new hope it to try and push the NATO agenda and then expand from there. It would begin with importation restrictions, then expand to registration, confiscation, and ultimately disarmament is the concern of those on the far right side of things.  Depending on the administration I could see a least federal registration, but not called registration (because there is federal rulings making registration illegal) but more a "census" (with documented records of each individual) because the treaty wants to know what exists in every country. 

 

I am registered independent and believe both parties have positives and negatives about them, but do not believe that the current administration has stopped working toward a ban of some sort, They simply quit playing roulette and went to the poker table to try their hand at another game. 

[garnaz 215]

I think what they'll do is hold fed funding hostage to strongarm states to comply.

 

That's what they did to AZ when highway funds were being delegated. Now we have MLK day.

 

Didn't help that Nappy was gov at time.

 

About next s12 check gun broker you can find some at reasonable prices already converted. Be prepared for garage hacksmith.

Buy from rated seller.

[BlueNinjaGo 1]

I am thinking to buy myself a Saiga-12 for Christmas this year.

 

I see prices seem to be about $700 for an unconverted Saiga-12, currently.  

 

Questions:

 

1.  Has anyone seen any better prices?  Where?

 

2.  Do you think prices will come down more, and maybe I should wait a little while longer before buying?

 

Thanks!

I paid $680 total (including shipping and FFL transfer) from classiccityfirearms a few weeks back. Cheaper than I remember pre-Sandy Hook.

 

Can't imagine it going too much lower. Odds are they'll be going up if anything.

[brickfield mfg 86]

Keep checking the online sale sites, and look in the "for sale" sections of this, and other forums. I have seen some pretty good deals go through AK Forum.net. And I agree with Menace... go with the SLG12-08 or a similar conversion done by a company. You will generally be money ahead in the long run.

 

Remember that most DIY "conversions" are usually done in a manner of personal preference by the owner's "knowledge" of setting up a combat shotgun, or the size of their bank account. Some are sensible, KISS based, and some are ridiculous, gaudy jokes!

[menace667 194]

The price tag on the gaudy jokes is fhe worst part. There are converted guns, and then there are "converted" guns. On websites there are "converted" saiga rifles that they left in the sported configuration, but added the tapco plastic stock with integrated grip onto it and want $1500 for it.

 

If you go with a reputable company, like Kvar, the product will be superior and usually more fiscally sound.

 

I did forget to mention ar15.com in the equipment exchange section has a shotgun section with good deals from private parties from time to time. Have seen inconverted go between 5-600 from a motivated seller.

[gunfun 3,931]

tough call. Often the kitchen table jobs cost about the same in WTS as a stripped KVAR type conversion. However, you probably get $1-200 worth of mags thrown in....

 

I think part of the question depends on what gun you want to end up with. If you want LRBHO and a rail on top, and all that jazz you may as well just buy an OXO or V12 and have done with it. If you want a rock, n, lock rig with all aftermarket parts or very close to OEM, jutst get a basic IZ-109 and do the work. 

[gunman1 1,753]

_{I paid $700 for the one in the safe, bone stock S12, We'll see what they're worth in a couple of years}  

[HunterBobby 2]

I got my local about two weeks ago. $575 all wrapped up. I did buy three other rifles from the same guy that day though.....

[Matthew Hopkins 1,065]

well, you can wait and hope the price goes down. but  historically, prices on "evil guns" sky rocket every election year as people start panic buying. and there is a mid-term election this year.  

[Remek 771]

tough call. Often the kitchen table jobs cost about the same in WTS as a stripped KVAR type conversion. However, you probably get $1-200 worth of mags thrown in....

 

I think part of the question depends on what gun you want to end up with. If you want LRBHO and a rail on top, and all that jazz you may as well just buy an OXO or V12 and have done with it. If you want a rock, n, lock rig with all aftermarket parts or very close to OEM, jutst get a basic IZ-109 and do the work. 

 

Thanks GunFun.  I am looking for a house defense weapon.  I am not worried about optics or all sorts of gadgets (though I am, after my experience with the AR, thinking maybe a strobe).  So, its not really going to be jazzy, mainly a rock-n-roll rig in fairly close quarters.  

 

 

_{I paid $700 for the one in the safe, bone stock S12, We'll see what they're worth in a couple of years}  

Good to know.  I am glad I am not far off.

 

I got my local about two weeks ago. $575 all wrapped up. I did buy three other rifles from the same guy that day though.....

Maybe I need to find someone buying in bulk!

 

 

well, you can wait and hope the price goes down. but  historically, prices on "evil guns" sky rocket every election year as people start panic buying. and there is a mid-term election this year.  

 

This is definitely true, and long-term it will definitely go up, just due to our Government's mismanagement of our money.

 

 

I think maybe I need to price it out to see where I get off a theoretical hunting-saiga, + parts cost (I have no fear of the work, I did it with my x39), and compare with the cost of an SGL 12.  I see KVAR is pushing a grand on their converted, but the SGL 12-07 is 880 at arsenal. 

 

Making sense of this, it appears that maybe the Arsenal SGL 12/07 is the best bet, as I am sure parts will run more over 200 in the non-converted.

 

 

Time to price out parts!

Edited October 2, 2013 by Remek

[SGL 530]

As I understand it...Arsenal is not selling Russian guns anymore.   People speculate about why (issues with the Bulgarians vs. Izhmash etc..) but they have created a new company called FIME Group to import/convert Russian weapons.

 

This means that if you want an SGL12, you'll have to get a FIME gun from KVAR.

 

Every example I have seen is the same quality as Arsenal, and uses the same components.

 

If you go with a FIME gun, you'll get a shotgun that came into the country already "converted".  More accurately, it never had the goofy rear trigger installed, so you won't have any welded up holes in your receiver.  If that matters to you, great...if not...it at least helps the resale value.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that because these shotguns come into the country this way, with a five round magazine, there are no U.S. parts on an SGL12-07.  Everything, down to the trigger group is Russian made.  If you get the 08 or 09, it comes with the US RPK style fore-end but you'll still need to swap out parts if you want to use larger magazines...even U.S. made ones.   Obviously this is less work and cost than conversion, but something to keep in mind.

 

If new sporter Saigas can't be found for less than $700.00, it seems like a no-brainer to pick up an SGL12 from KVAR when they are available.

Unfortunately, I heard from Robert at KVAR that the Russians started charging more for everything, so expect prices to rise.

(take that with a grain of salt though, as KVAR is known for their artificial hyping of scarcity vs. demand)

 

P.S. As you can probably tell from my screen name, I'm a little biased towards the SGLs.

The real screaming deal was the SGL12-67, which is not currently for sale.   Enough U.S. parts to run Russian 8 round mags, and it even came with one!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Remek 771]

So, are you saying if I want to take the SGL and modify it to accept a drum/larger mag, I am going to have to comply with 922?

I guess I should ask, as I am wondering if I should pounce now, is the 12-07 bad?  Do I need an 08? Sounds pretty much identical, save for the particular grip.  I am seeing that this 9 c-note entry might be a very wise that won't be around much longer.  Thoughts?

[sccritterkiller 473]

FWIW I paid 500 for my 109s...if I had to do it over again knowing what I know now I would have paid the extra for a model with the LRBHO.

[SGL 530]

So, are you saying if I want to take the SGL and modify it to accept a drum/larger mag, I am going to have to comply with 922?

I guess I should ask, as I am wondering if I should pounce now, is the 12-07 bad?  Do I need an 08? Sounds pretty much identical, save for the particular grip.  I am seeing that this 9 c-note entry might be a very wise that won't be around much longer.  Thoughts?

 

You wouldn't need to modify it to take a drum or longer magazine, but you would be out of compliance if you did so without swapping out the requisite parts.   The only difference between the 07 and 08 is the hand guard.   For what it's worth, it's a nice hand guard with minimal slop, and has never gotten too hot, despite my best efforts.    Plus, it's your first compliance part on your way to bigger mags.  

 

That said, there are a lot of good hand guards and rails out there, so if you've got your eye on a different one, then the 07 would make the most sense.

[menace667 194]

Remember that a US mag is three parts, meaning you could just swap out the FCG ($40-$50) and be compliant, but if it is for home defense, the factory five rounder gives you six rounds (5+1 in chamber) of 12 gauge to use against any intruder. Thats more than enough as you save for a few cheap compliance parts or make it how you want. 

[Remek 771]

So this might deserve a different thread, but I thought I'd start here and see how it goes.

 

I lost my chance to buy the saiga 12-07, its out of stock.  Then I started looking at all the other options and doing some research.

 

I am now wondering if a VEPR 12 FSF is a better model to go with.  I think it is, but I have to admit, I've never seen one.  The absence of need to adjust the gas, the tolerance for low-brass, and the quality of build are generally agreed to in the reviews I have read.  The mag-well makes little difference to me, but I can see the appeal of the VEPR.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMfzN5LZc3o

 

Anyone have advice who's had experience with both a saiga and vepr 12?  What are the shortcomings of the VEPR versus the Saiga?  Where does the Saiga shine?  Where does the VEPR shine?

 

I am thinking to actually buy in the next day or two, but I don't want to make a mistake.

 

Again, in case it wasnt made clear before.  I plan to have this as a rock-n-roll home-defense gun.  A no-brainer for home defense of the family.  No optics planned, no frills, nothing but the gun itself.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Remek

[menace667 194]

I previously owner a S12 and currently have a V12. The V12 is out of the box ready to use. No conversion needed, no gas adjustments, no re profiling needed, and making it 922 compliant is cheaper than a S12. the magazines are the drawback to it compared to the S12 for most, but mostly because they already have a S12 and the mags are not interchangeable. If this will be your only AK 12 gauge version firearm then that point is moot. If you spend $45 and change the FCG with US mags you are compliant with 6 parts as I understand it. Allows the use of hicap mags while saving your money and deciding on what other mods, if any, you want to make. It also comes with LRBHO, AK retainer plats instead of shepherds crook garbage, molot PG which is comfortable to the hand, a FSF if you go that route, and some of the newer ones have railed gas blocks and hand guards also. 

 

The difference in price is well worth it to me and shooting it is very nice also. Most Saiga's reliability is questionable without mods, but with what is almost universally considered much better QC, the VEPR is a much more reliable adn quality out of the box firearm. 

[SeekingSequiter 0]

Just got a 12-08.$900 .Stovepipes with low brass,think recoil spring is buckling and holding it up just prior to eject rod extends past bolt.Has LRBHO but it's not what I thought.I thought it would hold the bolt open automatically after last round fired ( like a semi-auto pistol).Wrong,it's just a button behind the trigger gaurd that will keep bolt back when manualy done,last round or not(dumb name).I got it for fun to put a Bumpski on it for full auto shotgun pleasure.Also stock seems high to me,kept knocking my ear protection off using iron sites,sights nonadjustable but were right on.Three ports ,one muzzleside two stockside.It looks like just a little spring tube mod and it's ready to go,pistal grip and all,Oh, hand guard real nice and cool.Threaded barrel with protector.But if you truely want it for home protection you want something 100% reliable.Saiga"s are great once you tune them,but face it any semi-auto can jam.That's the last thing you want when life depends on it.For home defence I would recomend this:

 

 

 

12 GAUGE STREETSWEEPER  (about $1200)+class III costs

 

Preassure swiches on grips turn on laser and torch when picked up,button safety at trigger gaurd,shot from hip minimal to no recoil,approx 26"long can turn in doorway leveled,drum mag not typical,drum is actualy 12 round revolver cylinder-highly reliable,no jam possible.No fun at range(get bored of blowing bullseyes away with ease) Loaded with Terminator shells (google them,impressive)I've read pros can empty 12 rounds in 3 seconds. Cons:reloading takes a year.

 

Maybe when I get my Saiga reliably running as machine gun(bump style) will use it for backup untill Alliance Armament finish thier m11/m10 full auto Aguila 12 gauge conversion.So many canons so few home invasions,but that's life,seems everything you prepare for never happens just the stuff you never would have guessed bites you in the ass.

 

Stay Safe!

 

 

[SeekingSequiter 0]

Forgot something important,if you do want a streetsweeper check with a class III FFL first! Streetsweepers were classified as Destructive Devices.As I understand it they can only transfere one D.D. per 365 days.Might be hard to find one,probably why BATFE classed them that way.

[HighPlainsDrifter 466]

Has LRBHO but it's not what I thought.I thought it would hold the bolt open automatically after last round fired ( like a semi-auto pistol).Wrong,it's just a button behind the trigger gaurd that will keep bolt back when manualy done,last round or not(dumb name)

 

To clarify some misinformation.  SeekingSequiter is describing a model with a BHO (bolt hold open).  Yes, there are Saiga models out there that come with a factory installed LRBHO (last round bolt hold open) which do act like a semi-auto pistol, automatically holding the bolt open after firing the last round.  I know, I have one.  

 

Personally I'd save up and invest in a Vepr-12 (check out Legion USA).  Out of the box it has more features and better quality.  The downside to the Vepr is having less options to modify.  All though you may want to rethink buying a Vepr if you wish to spend less upfront for the firearm but invest more time and possibly money in long run.  The amount of money you spend on a Saiga depends on what you want as the options are only limited to your imagination.  I see more and more products being developed for the Vepr-12 but I'll hesitantly say that I question if it'll ever get to the extent of the Saiga-12 platform.     

Edited October 14, 2013 by HighPlainsDrifter

[Eric Pate 478]

Just got a 12-08.$900 .Stovepipes with low brass,think recoil spring is buckling and holding it up just prior to eject rod extends past bolt.Has LRBHO but it's not what I thought.I thought it would hold the bolt open automatically after last round fired ( like a semi-auto pistol).Wrong,it's just a button behind the trigger gaurd that will keep bolt back when manualy done,last round or not(dumb name).I got it for fun to put a Bumpski on it for full auto shotgun pleasure.Also stock seems high to me,kept knocking my ear protection off using iron sites,sights nonadjustable but were right on.Three ports ,one muzzleside two stockside.It looks like just a little spring tube mod and it's ready to go,pistal grip and all,Oh, hand guard real nice and cool.Threaded barrel with protector.But if you truely want it for home protection you want something 100% reliable.Saiga"s are great once you tune them,but face it any semi-auto can jam.That's the last thing you want when life depends on it.For home defence I would recomend this:

 

STREETSWEEPER2 001.JPG

 

 

12 GAUGE STREETSWEEPER  (about $1200)+class III costs

 

Preassure swiches on grips turn on laser and torch when picked up,button safety at trigger gaurd,shot from hip minimal to no recoil,approx 26"long can turn in doorway leveled,drum mag not typical,drum is actualy 12 round revolver cylinder-highly reliable,no jam possible.No fun at range(get bored of blowing bullseyes away with ease) Loaded with Terminator shells (google them,impressive)I've read pros can empty 12 rounds in 3 seconds. Cons:reloading takes a year.

 

Maybe when I get my Saiga reliably running as machine gun(bump style) will use it for backup untill Alliance Armament finish thier m11/m10 full auto Aguila 12 gauge conversion.So many canons so few home invasions,but that's life,seems everything you prepare for never happens just the stuff you never would have guessed bites you in the ass.

 

Stay Safe!

[lbsrdi 1,078]

Not very reliable in my book. http://youtu.be/XGtmt3hHNxI

Edited October 14, 2013 by King of the Hill

[Maxwelhse 1,285]

I confess that I didn't read this entire thread, so... disclaimer spoken...

 

I bought my S-12 for $780 OTD (not a steal by any means) about a week after Giffords was shot from the only local dealer that had them and the S-12 was at that time being reviewed by the BATFE as a DD (as a side note... he had 2 of them and sold the second via phone before I could get in there 2 hours later to buy mine).

 

Do I feel bad about what I paid? OF COURSE!!! Does it actually bother me? Not at all... It's in the safe and not on the wish list. When it comes to guns, that is the most important thing. What you have in your hands is what counts. I already know you have no intention of ever selling it, so who cares what it costs?

 

Here is a bit of insight that might aid you in your decision:

 

Never try to catch a falling sword.

[bbwps 0]

If you would like a Tromix gun cheap, I mean real cheap look here.

 

SARCASM ALERT

 

I don't know maybe I'm wrong and Team Tromix sent some guns to the monkey cage at the zoo for work. I feel for whoever buys it thinking they are getting the real deal.