ATF letter - No go

[cvasqu03 21]

Well, I got back a letter from ATF regarding whether or not it's legal to modify a Saiga to take regular AK mags while keeping it in it's stock configuration. I knew it was a long shot, but figured that since they were starting to import 30rd Saiga mags it might be ok. Well, unfortunately, the letter says it's not, so those of us who want to keep the Saiga the way it is, will still have to find some way to decrease the number of foreign parts to do so.

 

Oh, well, it was worth a try.

Edited February 9, 2005 by cvasqu03

[RDSWriter 5]

You gotta love bureacracy and government... now they are - in a round about and financial way - encouraging the modification of firearms into 'assault weapons' if you want use standard AK hicap mags...

 

This is almost Three-Stooge-like....

[pistonring8 1]

I agree totally. Thank you for trying and posting on this...

[zipgun 0]

It would be interesting for those into counting parts to indicate how many parts one would have to swap to allow one foreign mag to be swapped with another one???

[Bvamp 604]

i told you guys to change the floorplates and followers in those things....

 

can you post the letter they sent you in its entirety?

[Doerdie 0]

Please post the entire letter, and whatever you wrote to them, also.

[pistonring8 1]

Even though the term "sporting purpose" is used pretty vaguely. The term "readily adaptable" is also pretty loose in meaning. If you have a 30 round Saiga mag or AK mag in your stock Saiga it is illegal, but pop in a ten rounder and your fine. There is a single stacked five rounder also available. I think my rifle is "readily adaptable for sporting purpose" if I have a ten round mag within reach.

 

Not that it matters anyway. The max capacity for hunting in Pennsylvania is something like 3. Is target shooting a sport? Its an Olympic event. If so, my 30 round mag would be fine for "sporting" purpose. Ouch, my head hurts and my left eye has started twitching.

[cvasqu03 21]

will scan and post later tonight.

[saul 0]

  pistonring8 said:

If you have a 30 round Saiga mag or AK mag in your stock Saiga it is illegal, but pop in a ten rounder and your fine. There is a single stacked five rounder also available. I think my rifle is "readily adaptable for sporting purpose" if I have a ten round mag within reach.

While I haven't seen the contents of this latest letter yet, I believe that a factory Saiga mag of thirty rounds is legal while the 30 round ak mag is not. The import regulations that cover magazine capacity in imported semi-autos very specifically cover military mags which a saiga mag is not.(although only a few millimeters of metal and plastic make it different from the ak mag.)

 

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/assault/report.htm

 

Read the press release and tell me if you interpret the regulation the same way I do?

[SaigaMan7.62 0]

What parts do I need to change so that I can use my AK mags that have been moded? Or can I just use my 5 round AK mag?

[IndyArms 10,189]

you need to change the follower and the floorplate... spring mught not hurt either...

 

[cvasqu03 21]

Edited February 10, 2005 by cvasqu03

[cvasqu03 21]

Here's page 2

[Falcon73 0]

The big problem wouldn't be the mag, it would be the rifle that is able to use them. One of the reasons the Saigas take a unique (if only slightly unique) mag is to get them around being able to readily accept military magazines. If you convert it to properly function with regular AK mags then the rifle is in a configuration which could not have been imported and is a no-no to our ATF friends. Reasonable, logical, intelligent....hell no, but we are talking politics and gun laws, not common sense. Of course all is fine and dandy as long as it's a so-called domestic rifle with 10 foreign parts or less. Even less logical, I know, but at least we have that option. Hopefully the new importer will get the Saiga high cap magazine flow restored (more like started) and this will be less of an issue.

Edited February 10, 2005 by Falcon73

[Falcon73 0]

Sorry cvasq, looks like you are pretty much up on all of what I covered in my post. I put it up as you were posting the letters. Thanks for making the effort to get the mag issue cleared up.

[cvasqu03 21]

Yeah well, like I said, it was worth a try. At least we know for sure now. Now I have to find someplace to machine me a US made Saiga trigger and disconnector (the hammer is pretty much the same as on the AK)

 

oh well.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

  cvasqu03 said:

Yeah well, like I said, it was worth a try. At least we know for sure now. Now I have to find someplace to machine me a US made Saiga trigger and disconnector (the hammer is pretty much the same as on the AK)

 

oh well.

Just get a tapco G2 trigger group. If you want to replace all three parts with U.S. without changing to PG config. couldn't you just cut the trigger off the G2 set and install it where the Saiga fcg was. Wouldn't that be U.S. made? At least the hammer and disconnector would be. You could get a U.S. stock to be sure.

[IndyArms 10,189]

that would work, too... I have never heard of anyone putting in US components without doing the conversion.... but yeah... no reason why you couldnt...

 

 

[cvasqu03 21]

  IndyArms said:

that would work, too... I have never heard of anyone putting in US components without doing the conversion.... but yeah... no reason why you couldnt...

 

 

I think it would work, but I'm trying to get my hands on some unmodified Saiga internals to make sure. I'd also like them to use as reference pieces if I decide to alter the US made trigger myself. The disconnector actually looks a little different (a little longer), but I won't know until I see it out of the gun. If so, I don't know how I would go about adding the material or if it would be necessary. The trigger also worries me since the AK trigger has a "Y" like profile when seen from the front, whereas the Saiga trigger is completely straight. It might be possible to cut the AK trigger to shape, but once again, I won't know until I get them in my hands.

 

Has anyone else successfully done this?

Edited February 10, 2005 by cvasqu03

[RDSWriter 5]

I'm 100% sure they will work... the trigger and hammer holes don't move - same position every time. US FCG parts work in typical conversions so there is no reason they shouldn't in an unmodified Saiga - unless the rear of the trigger pieces (where the hammer spring makes contact) are too short to engage the transfer bar from the 'sporterized' trigger... but I don't think that is the case.

 

The original disconnector may be a bit higher, but I bet the trigger arm is that holds the hammer is higher too. If you (1) replace the trigger, disconnector and hammer and (2) cut the portion off the trigger that would normally protrude through the bottom of the receiver... this should work.

[pistonring8 1]

I still dont understand what you guys think the differance is between the Saiga 30 round mags and the standard AK mag. Once you pop in either one of them, you are in a non-inportable configuration and have to conform to 922r. I have a pair of Saiga 30 round mags for mine. This was my understanding from the very beginning and its probably why you cant get them anymore. Both style mags are made overseas and considered "non-sporting" by the ATF.

 

You can replace enough parts to be compliant without cutting up your trigger on a Saiga and still leave it where it is. You can replace the hammer, diconnector, buttstock, foregrip, gas piston, and follower. Or just use the US made magazines that count as 3 parts.

 

My suggestion would be to install a feedramp and use US made AK mags. Replace the easiest parts with US ones and live worry free.

[cvasqu03 21]

  pistonring8 said:

...You can replace enough parts to be compliant without cutting up your trigger on a Saiga and still leave it where it is. You can replace the hammer, diconnector, buttstock, foregrip, gas piston, and follower. Or just use the US made magazines that count as 3 parts.

 

Problem with that is that although the hammer is just like the regular AK one, the disconnector is slightly different (I dont' know if it would work, but I may try it). Furthermore, there are no US made Saiga style buttstocks or foregrips, and the regular AK style ones won't fit on a Saiga.

 

since the Saiga has no pistol grip, we'd only need to replace four parts (somebody correct me if I'm wrong), but the only parts available are the piston and hammer.

Edited February 10, 2005 by cvasqu03

[RDSWriter 5]

Saiga shotguns only has 13 imported parts per the letter/link from Soupbowl Enterprises that was previously posted.

 

http://www.concentric.net/~ldrennan/page12.html

 

FYI - the trunion is not an imported part on Saiga Shotguns and they don't have pistol grips. Why they don't count the trunion I have no clue.

 

I'm not sure about rifles, but I'm guessing that they are similar to AK variants so the trunion would be counted. So you need four parts

 

So... use a US hammer, US disconnector and US trigger. Cut/grind the trigger to match the original trigger in your Saiga - remove the part that would normally protrude through the bottom of the receiver off. That's 3 parts...

 

For the fourth part, you may be able to fit US AK baseplates and gas pistons. But I don't own a 7.62 Saiga... so I can't confirm this. This would replace four or five foreign parts.

 

If you want muzzle attachment, simply us a US manufactured one. That way you don't increase the number of imported parts.

[AKhunter 0]

If you are strict about using only US made mags, you could just replace the gas piston and you'd be done, right?

 

AK

[saul 0]

cvasqu30 this is the parts list you were hoping for from the BATF.

 

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings

(2) Barrels

(3) Barrel extensions <edit>-not on saiga

(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)

(5) Muzzle attachments <edit>-not on saiga

(6) Bolts

(7) Bolt carriers

(8) Operating rods <edit>-not on saiga

(9) Gas pistons

(10) Trigger housings <edit>-not on saiga

(11) Triggers

(12) Hammers

(13) Sears <edit>-not on saiga

(14) Disconnectors

(15) Buttstocks

(16) Pistol grips <edit>-not on stock imported saiga

(17) Forearms, handguards

(18) Magazine bodies

(19) Followers

(20) Floorplates

 

I have not done it myself, but many other knowledgable folks on this forum have affirmed that the U.S. made disconnectors do work.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but the trigger that is one solid piece on an ak is three separate parts on a Saiga. The hook which contacts the hammer, the linkage arm and the trigger itself which contacts the shooters finger. To get the BATF to answer which portions of this constitute #(11) Triggers above would involve the BATF agent actually looking at a Saiga. When I read the letter you received I don't think that the writer did much more than look up the fact that Saiga rifles are made in Russia.

 

U.S. made gas pistons, hammers and disconnectors should fit. Now what the "large-capacity only" converters among us need is a U.S. made sporter stock or handguard. to get us down to ten foreign parts, including the Saiga trigger and all three foreign mag parts. Even a U.S. made bolt carrier might prove easy to drop in. There just isn't enough demand for Tapco or K-var to produce that fourth magic Saiga part.

Edited February 10, 2005 by saul

[cvasqu03 21]

  saul said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but the trigger that is one solid piece on an ak is three separate parts on a Saiga. The hook which contacts the hammer, the linkage arm and the trigger itself which contacts the shooters finger. To get the BATF to answer which portions of this constitute #(11) Triggers above would involve the BATF agent actually looking at a Saiga. When I read the letter you received I don't think that the writer did much more than look up the fact that Saiga rifles are made in Russia.

 

U.S. made gas pistons, hammers and disconnectors should fit. Now what the "large-capacity only" converters among us need is a U.S. made sporter stock or handguard. to get us down to ten foreign parts, including the Saiga trigger and all three foreign mag parts. Even a U.S. made bolt carrier might prove easy to drop in. There just isn't enough demand for Tapco or K-var to produce that fourth magic Saiga part.

You pretty much summed it up. Yes, the Saiga has what would be the traditional AK trigger separated into different parts, but since the parts list says "trigger" this means you'd only have to replace the part that the finger squeezes on in the Saiga which is a much simpler piece than the regular AK trigger. I'believe a US made AK trigger could be cut to work, but like I said I'll have to experiment a little. I'll probably buy some cheap chinese trigger to test out the theory before shelling out $50 for the US trigger group parts. I was just hoping to save myself the trouble. I have compared the gas piston and it's identical to the AK one so that should work. Basically, since I'm going to have to keep the stock, I'll have to work with the US trigger parts.

 

Unfortunately using US floorplates won't work for me because I have another AK and a lot of other AK mags, and I'm not willing to change the floorplates on all of them. This means that I'd have some magazines that it is legal to insert into the Saiga and some that would increase the foreign parts count to an illegal level. The issue here is constructive intent, and you could get in trouble for just having the magazines if it's illegal to insert it into the rifle. Granted, this has never been prosecuted (to my knowledge), but like most people on this board, I like to stay on the right side of the law.

[RDSWriter 5]

I agree, you should not have unmodified mags with only one rifle that cannot use them... VERY CYA.

 

SIMPLE SOLUTION

Buy another 7,62x39 pistol gripped U.S. rifle for use with the other mags... that way constructive intent doesn't apply. (You know you want one...)

 

This is the same premise that you can own SBRs, AR15 pistols, M16 shorties as well as regular AR15s without being in violation of an unregistered SBR for the regular AR15. In theory you could reconfigure the regular AR15 with the short barrel, but that is not the intent and you own other firearms that can legally use the parts.

[pistonring8 1]

That is exactly right. I have an AMD65 pistol in the works.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Ya'll probly already know this but RPB has US followers and FPs @ $10 for 10 sets. I stocked up and changed all mine out. Can't beat a buck a mag for two US parts.

http://www.rpbusa.com/ak.html

Edited February 10, 2005 by Cobra 76 two

[k_dawg 0]

Yep, and then you can get 30rounders for under $10 :-)