Demonstration: Man is shot with .308 while wearing body armor

[expeditionx 1]

http://media.putfile.com/2ndchancecomp

[IndyArms 10,186]

Good stuff! :up:

 

 

[epsylum 0]

Arrrg stupid work computer.

 

I guess I will have to watch it when I get home

[G O B 3,516]

Increadibly STUPID people tricks. Recommended for viewing by the world council on overpopulation.

 

 

G O B

[1liter 20]

Best fire arms class I've ever sat through!

 

Can't wait to try that out at the range...

[StarLynx 0]

Something isn't right about that demo...Not sure if it's the recording or what..but that 308 /44 cal report sounds weak to me.....I have seen PLENTY of human hits wearing a vest..& have never seen one that did not at least bruise or hurt.....I''ve taken hits with 9mm ,40 s&w.45 Even 30 cal from over 300 meters..& I don't care what anybody says...it hurts!!!

 

Are we suire that those rounds they are using is full strength????

Even a 22 rim fire stings like the devil!!....

I've even seen 357 Sig zip right thru a "Second chance "..I'm not saying it was the same schedule as what they may be introducing there...but it still don't look righteous..

[expeditionx 1]

That video clip is from the 1980's. Its part of a much larger video produced by Second Chance Armor

http://www.secondchance.com/home.asp

 

The wad of magazines he stuffs under the armor distributes the blunt force over a larger surface area.

 

The way the steel plates are stacked (staggered) on the guy shot with a .308 the blunt trauma is spread over

2 plates or more. Armor with no steel plates would transfer alot of direct blunt trauma.

Without the plates, a slug impact would likely shatter ribs.

I just cant see a standard 12 gauge slug causing one or two plates to direct enough force onto the target to incapcitate.

Edited April 22, 2006 by expeditionx

[AegisDei 2]

I call bullshit...

What stops a .458 magnum? Isn't that nearly the same muzzle energy as a BMG which penetrates 6" steel?

 

And a .308 from 3' away? It would so knock you over. The energy of that bullet is much greater than a punch, and if I punched that dude while he was on one foot I think I'd tip him off balance.

[scoutjoe 276]

I call bullshit...

What stops a .458 magnum? Isn't that nearly the same muzzle energy as a BMG which penetrates 6" steel?

 

And a .308 from 3' away? It would so knock you over. The energy of that bullet is much greater than a punch, and if I punched that dude while he was on one foot I think I'd tip him off balance.

 

 

I'm with Aegis on this one...that guy should be on the ground in pain

[Zebra 0]

why was i not surprised to see white people doing that demo. ?

 

fuck that there is no way in hell that you would ever catch my black ass testing any kind of body armor.

 

308 from 3 feet away??? i think thats bullshit myself.

 

thanks for the good laugh though

[pedal2alloy 206]

Extra, extra thick and lapped armor and underpowered ammo. Not an accurate or realistic test.

[expeditionx 1]

I call bullshit...

What stops a .458 magnum? Isn't that nearly the same muzzle energy as a BMG which penetrates 6" steel?

 

And a .308 from 3' away? It would so knock you over. The energy of that bullet is much greater than a punch, and if I punched that dude while he was on one foot I think I'd tip him off balance.

 

Ive seen pistol bullets have a hard time knocking over a 4 pound bowling pin.

The bullet energy was near 350 pounds kinetic, yet it just tipped the 4 pound pin.

If I compared the pistol bullet experience to the video , I would see clearly why a 150 grain bullet

(roughly a third of an once) cant knock over a man.

 

Pistol bullet 124 grain 345 pounds kinetic energy versus 4 pound bowling pin barely knocked over.

 

200 pounds divided by 4 = 50 50 times 345 pounds kinetic energy = 17,250 pounds kinetic energy

 

At the same energy versus weight relationship seen in the bowling pin example, a 200 pound man would require 17,250 pounds of energy. A .50 BMG is around 12,000 pounds of kinetic energy and a .458 winchester magnum is about 5,000 pounds of kinetic energy. Kinetic energy alone would require a high proportional amount.

 

Momentum which is increased by adding weight would have a more favorable effect when trying to knock down a person. Example Throw a basket ball as hard as you can at someone to knock them down

Then try throwing a bowling ball to achieve the same.

 

Also just for comparison, a 3 pound prairie dog when hit by under 1200 pounds of energy from a .223 it is physically moved quite a bit. However, that is a much higher amount of energy related to the weight of the prairie dog.

Edited April 22, 2006 by expeditionx

[StarLynx 0]

..I'm not disputing anybodys paperwork or ciphering...however...stand those two idiots in the vid on my firing range & let me fire MY 30 cal ball ammo at em & I will guarentee ya...they & the Body armour they are wear'n will look like a rednecks back screen door lay'n flat on the ground....

[PvtPyle 0]

I call bullshit...

What stops a .458 magnum? Isn't that nearly the same muzzle energy as a BMG which penetrates 6" steel?

 

And a .308 from 3' away? It would so knock you over. The energy of that bullet is much greater than a punch, and if I punched that dude while he was on one foot I think I'd tip him off balance.

 

There is lots of steel that will stop 50 cal. The range we are building will handle an M2. So these plates will stop 308, there is nothing magical about it.

 

And for the knocking you over thing, where did you get that from? Physics says that it will not hit you with more energy than you feel in recoil. If you get shot with a handgun, it is not the bullet that makes you move, it is the body's reaction to the pain. Just like if I poke you with a pin, it is not the energy of the pin making you move, it is the body's reaction. Myth Busters destroyed this myth a long time ago with a slab of beef hanging up on a chain. They shot it with calibers all the way up to 30-06 with no movement. But the 1oz shotgun slug made it fall.

 

And yes, this is an old video from Second Chances demo for Agencies, and it is for real.

[Bvamp 604]

gotta love the mythbusters. they have done some pretty interesting tests with gunfire.

[well2160 42]

This is part of a video called Deadly Force. I've seen the whole thing and this is the only part where Second Chance Vests come in. The rest is testing various loads and calibers on water filled milk jugs, car windows, doors, store window glass, etc. They have a segment on silencers, shooting car gas tanks with regular ammo versus tracer rounds (neither sets it off). My two favorites are when they put 100 rounds of 50 cal into a car and then blow another up with dynamite. It is a really interesting video to watch but I've never been able to find the video online or anywhere else. My dad has a copy but I have no idea where he got it.

[Steph 5]

And a .308 from 3' away? It would so knock you over. The energy of that bullet is much greater than a punch, and if I punched that dude while he was on one foot I think I'd tip him off balance.

 

My .308 has never knocked me over, and I am 5'9" 195#. Ask Issac Newton. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. A bullet cannot hit downrange with more energy than it imparts to your shoulder. That is why no bullets will physically knock you down, and we don't have 40mm howitzers that are shoulder-fired. I have shot a few ballistic vests and seen a few demos live. I believe the video is real, with full power ammo. Its just a matter of dispersing the force over a given area in a given time. No magic, just physics. The dudes in the video sure seem like spuds to me, though.

[AegisDei 2]

My .308 has never knocked me over, and I am 5'9" 195#. Ask Issac Newton. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. A bullet cannot hit downrange with more energy than it imparts to your shoulder. That is why no bullets will physically knock you down, and we don't have 40mm howitzers that are shoulder-fired. I have shot a few ballistic vests and seen a few demos live. I believe the video is real, with full power ammo. Its just a matter of dispersing the force over a given area in a given time. No magic, just physics. The dudes in the video sure seem like spuds to me, though.

I guess...

 

But that's also in a hypothetical newtonian universe which we don't live in. I would think A LOT of energy will be dissipated in the form of heat and sound instead of strictly a reactionary kinetic energy. Also, some of the reactionary kinetic energy will be absorbed within the gun itself as some will be spent moving the carrier back and other will be absorbed by the material itself, thus (I could be wrong) I doubt a shoulder absorbs anywhere near the energy that the bullet has.

 

Shooting a slab of meat is different than body armor. One would have to look toward the physical property of "impulse" to make the comparison, and the impulse of absorbing a bullet in a slab of meat is much less than absorbing it in a piece of steel.

 

The video may very well be accurate, which I'm mighty impressed with, however I will not be volunteering to test their product any time soon.

Edited April 23, 2006 by AegisDei

[Steph 5]

I'm sure you're right about some of the energy being disappated, but I look at it this way; if I affixed a 5/16" pointed rod to my buttstock, held it against my shoulder and fired my .308, I am sure it would drive it into my shoulder at about 2,500 feet per second. A butt pad is about 8 1/2 square inches, which is probably 50 times the surface area of the front of the bullet, so the force at any given point is 1/50th of the force the bullet hits with. Sorry to keep beating the dead horse, but I love this stuff. Dispite my belief in physics, I don't want anybody testing this out on me either.

[AegisDei 2]

I'm sure you're right about some of the energy being disappated, but I look at it this way; if I affixed a 5/16" pointed rod to my buttstock, held it against my shoulder and fired my .308, I am sure it would drive it into my shoulder at about 2,500 feet per second. A butt pad is about 8 1/2 square inches, which is probably 50 times the surface area of the front of the bullet, so the force at any given point is 1/50th of the force the bullet hits with. Sorry to keep beating the dead horse, but I love this stuff. Dispite my belief in physics, I don't want anybody testing this out on me either.

I love physics, I just wish I remembered it better. It's fun and I get to learn new stuff from y'all. But regardless, that's some diesel body armor. I want some! (not sure why, but it's just cool stuff to have)

[ozone_00 3]

I just tried a little un scientific experiment and was able to knock over a person heavier thatn me with 40 lbs. of force whilst I remained standing. Explain that to me phisics gurus.

[expeditionx 1]

I just tried a little un scientific experiment and was able to knock over a person heavier thatn me with 40 lbs. of force whilst I remained standing. Explain that to me phisics gurus.

 

I stated earlier in this thread:

 

Momentum which is increased by adding weight would have a more favorable effect when trying to knock down a person. Example Throw a basket ball as hard as you can at someone to knock them down

Then try throwing a bowling ball to achieve the same.

 

Momentum because of weight really can really help knock someone over.

Most shoulder fired weapons will not have the momentum a moving car does.

Car plowing into the target wins over bullet because of momentum.

Throwing a 40 lb sack at someone has more momentum than a .50 BMG at muzzle.

[ozone_00 3]

So if the 40 lb sack or the bowling ball can knock someone over, then by way of equal and opposite reaction, the person throwing the object should theoretically fall over as well, correct?

[Steph 5]

I just tried a little un scientific experiment and was able to knock over a person heavier thatn me with 40 lbs. of force whilst I remained standing. Explain that to me phisics gurus.

 

Any object standing has a "footprint" the area between its point of contact with the ground. For a table, it is the square between its legs. For a three legged stool, it would be the triangle between its legs. For a person, it is the roughly oval shape encompassing their feet and the area between.

Every object also has a center of gravity, the point that is the average center of all its mass. If the center of gravity is between the area of the footprint, it is in balance, the closer the center of gravity gets to the edge of the footprint, the less stable it gets; and if the center of gravity is outside the footprint, it is no longer in balance, and falls over.

Your 40 pounds of force didn't move the other person in their entirety, it just pushed on their mass high enough that you had the leverage to tilt them so their center of gravity got outside their footprint. Just like you can push your refrigerator over at the top, but not the middle; and you sure can't lift it. You didn't move due the fact that I am sure you widened your stance (footprint) and braced yourself so your center of gravity was lower than theirs, and the friction of your feet kept you from sliding.

But getting back to guns, a 165 grain bullet theoretically could be going fast enough that its energy could do the same thing -But- if it had enough speed (energy) to do that, it would go right through them, and not use all its energy. At 2,800 feet per second, it just doesn't have enough energy to move that mass. When you shoot a deer with a 12 gauge slug, it doesn't push it over, if it falls down at all its because it disrupted a bone or nerve area and it could no longer support itself. More likely, it runs off.

I am so glad to see that my schooling is finally being used for something!

[Steph 5]

So if the 40 lb sack or the bowling ball can knock someone over, then by way of equal and opposite reaction, the person throwing the object should theoretically fall over as well, correct?

Yup. Except for friction and the difference in the heights of their center of gravity, which will give one person more leverage. I am sure when you throw something that heavy you change your stance and lean and move. If you stood straight up and threw a bowling ball by thrusting your arms staright out, you probably would fall over.

Try standing on a skateboard so you remove most of your friction and are standing nearly straight, and throw a 40 pound sack forward at 10 feet per second, and you will travel backward with a force of um- is it 40 foot pounds of energy? The person who catches or is hit by it standing on a skateboard, if they are near your weight, will absorb the same amount of energy and travel the same distance.

[expeditionx 1]

So if the 40 lb sack or the bowling ball can knock someone over, then by way of equal and opposite reaction, the person throwing the object should theoretically fall over as well, correct?

 

Best way to visualize a counter force:

 

You standing, throw a bowling ball off your chest. The force to project the bowling ball creates an equal force against your body weight. You can also this kind of force in two ways. When you do pushups the force

that lifts you is countered against the floor which wont move so you do. If you bench press weight off your chest, the force to lift is countered against you and the floor.

 

Another way to see this:

When a cartridge fires, the force is the expanding gas. The force is really pushing two ways-this is what causes recoil. The expanding gas pushes against all the surfaces. When the gas pressure reaches a minimum threshhold in relation to the force needed to move the bullet, the bullet will begin to move.

As gas pressure (energy) moves the bullet in one direction, there is an equal force excerted on the breech face similar to my example of pressing weight off your chest in bench pressing. The expanding gas creates a release of energy in two directions primarily. All the other surfaces are counter balanced against each other. As the gas pushes the bullet away from you, they also push you away from the bullet.

Weight counters the force of recoil on your side. The weight of the gun because its inseparable from the breechface on one side of the force and your weight. The heavier the gun = less impacting force against your weight. For example, a 2 pound shotgun would leave move force for you personally to absorb.

On the other side of the gas expansion, the only thing to restrict bullet speed is bore surfaces than can slow the velocity. The main difference between the impact force the bullet could achieve near the muzzle and the impact force you feel is the weight of the gun to absorb kinetic motion. The amount of surface space on the recoil pad distributes the left over force that the weight of the gun does not absorb. Larger recoil pad = greater surface area to lessen the applied force to your body.

 

Back to your 40 lb sack question:

The force excerted on the bowling ball is the same force excerted on you.

The more you weigh beyond the weight of the object forced forward = less likely it will knock you down also.

[Steph 5]

I was just thinkin' that guys on skateboards shooting Saigas could be a cool sport. Kinda like the biathalon, but more serious injuries.

[ozone_00 3]

All of that having been said, how is it that if a bullet could knock over a person, it would also knock over the shooter?

[expeditionx 1]

All of that having been said, how is it that if a bullet could knock over a person, it would also knock over the shooter?

 

Force is equal on both sides but,

If the force alone will knock the target down, it will knock you down.

 

 

The weight of the gun because its inseparable from the breechface on one side of the force and your weight. The heavier the gun = less impacting force against your weight. For example, a 2 pound shotgun would leave move force for you personally to absorb.

Edited April 24, 2006 by expeditionx

[ozone_00 3]

So throwing a bowling ball/40 lb sack/pushing someone with 40 lbs of force is able to knock them over but not me, yet a bullet hypothetically capable of knocking the target would knock over the shooter?