Trick 0 Posted October 15, 2006 Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 I purchased a new S12 IZ-109 this weekend. I disassembled it to clean it and noticed the bolt support is missing most of it's coating. Is this normal?? See Pics... Trick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vjor 2 Posted October 15, 2006 Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 I purchased a new S12 IZ-109 this weekend. I disassembled it to clean it and noticed the bolt support is missing most of it's coating. Is this normal??See Pics... Trick Brother, if a gun is new out of the box from factory, comes in mint condition at list finish. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
polik6887 0 Posted October 15, 2006 Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 I purchased a new S12 IZ-109 this weekend. I disassembled it to clean it and noticed the bolt support is missing most of it's coating. Is this normal??See Pics... Trick looks to me like it wasnt new (unless you have shot it already). the finish on my iz-109 bolt also lost its finish really quick, it was more then half gone by my 4th shooting session. my carrier hasn't worn nearly as bad as your picture though, even after many more shooting sessions. either way the internal finish is shit, it wears off really really quick. I wouldnt worry about it though, as long as the gun functions ok. the piston isn't hanging up in the tube and jamming is it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trick 0 Posted October 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 I haven't shot it yet. It doesn't like to go into battery unless I let it slam forward and not ride it. Although, I've read that it's normal for the Saigas to do that. This is the way it looked after I took it out of the box. It's supposed to be brand new (box wasn't sealed or anything so who knows. Bought from a dealer @ gun show) I know the finish isn't that great on the Saigas but this definitely looked odd for a new weapon so I thought I'd check. Do you think I should contact RAA for warranty? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted October 15, 2006 Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 (edited) When you took it out of the box was it still wrapped in the funky anticorrosion paper and did it appear to have been unwrapped already? Also, unscrew the gas port selector and slide out the gas piston to see if it is filthy or not and if it slides freely. The guns are test fired and there may be a little carbonization but not much. Basically you are looking to see if it's really a new gun. If all's well there I'd just clean up the bolt carrier and spray paint it with low gloss black DupliColor engine enamel paint from an auto parts store, if it's just a matter of cosmetic appearance. I'd let RAAC know from the standpoint of quality control as it is not normal. Edited October 15, 2006 by tritium Quote Link to post Share on other sites
headshot 52 Posted October 15, 2006 Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 No! That is not normal AT ALL. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azkamidaka 26 Posted October 15, 2006 Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 Holy Crap that thing is beat up. Mine was purchased used and it didnt look like that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmanator 45 Posted October 15, 2006 Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 that does'nt look new,maybe some type of solvent ate the finish.call the dude you got it from and ask him if its been shot other than factory Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trick 0 Posted October 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 When you took it out of the box was it still wrapped in the funky anticorrosion paper and did it appear to have been unwrapped already? Also, unscrew the gas port selector and slide out the gas piston to see if it is filthy or not and if it slides freely. The guns are test fired and there may be a little carbonization but not much. Basically you are looking to see if it's really a new gun. If all's well there I'd just clean up the bolt carrier and spray paint it with low gloss black DupliColor engine enamel paint from an auto parts store, if it's just a matter of cosmetic appearance. I'd let RAAC know from the standpoint of quality control as it is not normal. It was already unwrapped and out of the box when I bought it. There wasn't any anticorrosion paper in the box. I took out the gas piston as you suggested. See pics below. What do you think.....new (factory test fire) or did I get swindled?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
headshot 52 Posted October 15, 2006 Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 When you took it out of the box was it still wrapped in the funky anticorrosion paper and did it appear to have been unwrapped already? Also, unscrew the gas port selector and slide out the gas piston to see if it is filthy or not and if it slides freely. The guns are test fired and there may be a little carbonization but not much. Basically you are looking to see if it's really a new gun. If all's well there I'd just clean up the bolt carrier and spray paint it with low gloss black DupliColor engine enamel paint from an auto parts store, if it's just a matter of cosmetic appearance. I'd let RAAC know from the standpoint of quality control as it is not normal. It was already unwrapped and out of the box when I bought it. There wasn't any anticorrosion paper in the box. I took out the gas piston as you suggested. See pics below. What do you think.....new (factory test fire) or did I get swindled?? That has been fired a lot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted October 15, 2006 Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 Well definitely been at least test fired but the carbon is not caked on like it's been "ridden hard and put away wet". Did the piston move freely in the tube or need to be vigorously forced out? Between that and the appearance of your bolt carrier it would certainly plant a seed of doubt in my mind. What did the guy charge you for the gun? If it was a fair price then I wouldn't get too bent out of shape but I'd be leery of future transactions with that dealer. Also, what is the production year on the receiver? Is it a threaded 19" barrel? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trick 0 Posted October 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 Well definitely been at least test fired but the carbon is not caked on like it's been "ridden hard and put away wet". Did the piston move freely in the tube or need to be vigorously forced out? Between that and the appearance of your bolt carrier it would certainly plant a seed of doubt in my mind. What did the guy charge you for the gun? If it was a fair price then I wouldn't get too bent out of shape but I'd be leery of future transactions with that dealer. Also, what is the production year on the receiver? Is it a threaded 19" barrel? Yeah, the piston did move freely in the tube. Yes, it's a 19" threaded barrel with BHO (IZ-109). I paid $429, which was about $40 more than the other Saigas available @ the show but they were the welded choke/ext w/o BHO. I really wanted a 109. The date on the receiver is 2001 but there's a "06" above the symbol that's above the date (I hope that makes sense) The certificate that came with it is dated 2/2006. What does this mean? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
762minigun 1 Posted October 15, 2006 Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 If you paid for a "new" S-12 you got swindled. Look at the bolt head. I would call the dealer and raise all kinds of hell. That is not a "new" S-12. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted October 16, 2006 Report Share Posted October 16, 2006 What company name is on the Import stamp on the side of the receiver (EAA or RAA?). Won't tell a lot about the story, but the EAA ones were imported a few years ago. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted October 16, 2006 Report Share Posted October 16, 2006 (edited) Well definitely been at least test fired but the carbon is not caked on like it's been "ridden hard and put away wet". Did the piston move freely in the tube or need to be vigorously forced out? Between that and the appearance of your bolt carrier it would certainly plant a seed of doubt in my mind. What did the guy charge you for the gun? If it was a fair price then I wouldn't get too bent out of shape but I'd be leery of future transactions with that dealer. Also, what is the production year on the receiver? Is it a threaded 19" barrel? Yeah, the piston did move freely in the tube. Yes, it's a 19" threaded barrel with BHO (IZ-109). I paid $429, which was about $40 more than the other Saigas available @ the show but they were the welded choke/ext w/o BHO. I really wanted a 109. The date on the receiver is 2001 but there's a "06" above the symbol that's above the date (I hope that makes sense) The certificate that came with it is dated 2/2006. What does this mean? You chose better with the threaded barrel. The receiver was manufactured in 2001 but by the certificate the firearm was assembled and tested in 2/06. Perhaps the bolt and carrier were also knocking around in their parts inventory for some time prior to incorporation into the assembled firearam, accounting for their appearance, or maybe it has been around the block a few times. The price is a bit higher than average. Edited October 16, 2006 by tritium Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sgphoto 0 Posted October 16, 2006 Report Share Posted October 16, 2006 You overpaid a little, particularly if you still had to pay taxes and a background check, but that's OK. However, I believe that you got a used gun there. If it was sold to you as new, take it back and have the guy knock off about a 100.00 or so in the price. Kepp all your paperwork. If the dealer doesn't make a settlement offer, you may have a good case for fraudulent selling practices, either a civil or crimnal complaint depending on your jusrisdiction. But your gun isn't in new condition regardless of when it was made. Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trick 0 Posted October 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2006 What company name is on the Import stamp on the side of the receiver (EAA or RAA?). Won't tell a lot about the story, but the EAA ones were imported a few years ago. RAA is on the side. I knew $429 was high but I haven't been able to find a IZ-109 at any of the VA. shows so far. I decided to suck it up and just pay the extra $$ and get what I wanted. It really sucks if I paid that for a used Saiga though. The barrel and chamber looked fine and I even confirmed with the seller that it was a new weapon before I purchased it. I guess you can't believe anyone anymore. Thanks to everyone for contributing and answering my questions . I'll call the dealer tomorrow and see what happens. If anyone has any additional info or thoughts please post them. Trick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
300RUM 0 Posted October 16, 2006 Report Share Posted October 16, 2006 I just caught this thread, and the first picture of your bolt head looks like it has lots of powder residue/carbon on it. Definately is not new in box. Look on the bright side, its an AK design, and it was meant to be abused. When I got my first one, (back in the CDNN days) Me and my brother ran close to 2k rounds through it to see what would break. Nothing went wrong. Needless to say, I bought a few more. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
random sylvester 0 Posted October 16, 2006 Report Share Posted October 16, 2006 post a picture of the rear of the gun,where the bolt carrier hits the back (with the cover removed ),thats a good way of seeing how much a gun have been used , the guy that sold it to you might have cleaned it and test fired it as well as the factory test . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted October 16, 2006 Report Share Posted October 16, 2006 That my friend was a used gun, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted October 16, 2006 Report Share Posted October 16, 2006 You did not get a NIB gun. Piston looks like more than just a few rounds. I've never paid too much attention to the bolt support, but that also says "NOT NEW". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trick 0 Posted October 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2006 post a picture of the rear of the gun,where the bolt carrier hits the back (with the cover removed ),thats a good way of seeing how much a gun have been used , the guy that sold it to you might have cleaned it and test fired it as well as the factory test . Is this what you meant?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 post a picture of the rear of the gun,where the bolt carrier hits the back (with the cover removed ),thats a good way of seeing how much a gun have been used , the guy that sold it to you might have cleaned it and test fired it as well as the factory test . Is this what you meant?? I think he wants one "from the top down" on the rear truinon... like put the gun in a cleaning vise/etc with the rear dust cover and spring assembly off. This way you can see how banged up the rear truinon is beat up by the carrier slamming into it. Not a surefire way to tell exactly how many rounds but it would help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trick 0 Posted October 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 post a picture of the rear of the gun,where the bolt carrier hits the back (with the cover removed ),thats a good way of seeing how much a gun have been used , the guy that sold it to you might have cleaned it and test fired it as well as the factory test . Is this what you meant?? I think he wants one "from the top down" on the rear truinon... like put the gun in a cleaning vise/etc with the rear dust cover and spring assembly off. This way you can see how banged up the rear truinon is beat up by the carrier slamming into it. Not a surefire way to tell exactly how many rounds but it would help. Like this?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
300RUM 0 Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 post a picture of the rear of the gun,where the bolt carrier hits the back (with the cover removed ),thats a good way of seeing how much a gun have been used , the guy that sold it to you might have cleaned it and test fired it as well as the factory test . Is this what you meant?? Thats the area where the carrier will contact, I can't really tell because there is not enough contrast in the picture. If you see wear that has a shape similar to the carrier then it's a fired gun. If there is lots of wear, then its fired alot. PS, Get a recoil buffer. I prefer Buffer Technologies, others recommend BlackJack. Either one will pad carrier contact with the rear trunion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RollingThunder 0 Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 I think you got a new gun, but a used bolt/carrier. Someone probably "borrowed" the bolt and used it in another gun - for unknown reason. Hence the seller did not really lie (the gun itself was not used) but you still got a bolt with some serious mileage. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 I think you got a new gun, but a used bolt/carrier. Someone probably "borrowed" the bolt and used it in another gun - for unknown reason. Hence the seller did not really lie (the gun itself was not used) but you still got a bolt with some serious mileage. Sounds plausible to me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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