Which vendors/dealers carry LEO 8 round magazines?

[hartzpad 0]

Where do you law enforcement people get your mags from? WHo carries them? Does CDNN? EAA?

 

All of us in a Steyr forum just completed a group buy of Steyr LEO hi cap magazines from CDNN, I think we bought them all out (around 200 magazines). We have an FFL dealer who is taking delivery of the mags and will ship them to us Sept. 14th when they become legal. I'd like to do something like this with Saiga 12 8 round magazines. I just don't know of any place that carries them for Law enforcement. Thanks for any help.

Edited July 13, 2004 by hartzpad

[ForGreatJustice 1]

I understand that ONLY EAA carries them. To do as you concieve, we would need a friendly LEO who is willing to help us. More often than not, companies have an internal policy of NOT selling their law enforcement models or accessories to anyone but cops. Even so, there is no law against individual officers selling them (at least, not after the 13th). There is a similar situation with the FN Five seveN pistol and its 5.7mm non AP ammo.

[hartzpad 0]

Maybe only EAA does carry them. But I know that I've seen another website that caters to LE that advertised these magazines and the Saiga 12k for LE use only. I just can't remember what the URL was.

 

Can some of you Law Enforcement people chime in and tell me where you got your magazines?

[SaltPeter 6]

I got mine from Kalashnikov USA @ 19.95 each. Your best bet is to get with someone who has an FFL to order them for you. FFL holders CAN possess LEO only magazines for the purpose of selling them to cops. After the ban sunset, he can then sell them to anyone.

[ForGreatJustice 1]

Unfortunately, I don't know any local FFLs who would do that for me. Most of the ones around here are paranoid and a bit greedy.

 

Someone should step up to the plate though. On this board, you could make a killing ordering those for $20, and selling for $25 or $30.

 

-T

[txleapd 0]

I contacted EAA about the Saiga 12K for LE use, and they told me that they have no intentions to import them (or any parts for the 12K) into the US. Apparently, the 8 rd mag falls into this category. Granted this was about a year ago, so some things may have changed. Especially with the AWB about to sunset.

 

I understand that ONLY EAA carries them.  To do as you concieve, we would need a friendly LEO who is willing to help us.  More often than not, companies have an internal policy of NOT selling their law enforcement models or accessories to anyone but cops.  Even so, there is no law against individual officers selling them (at least, not after the 13th).  There is a similar situation with the FN Five seveN pistol and its 5.7mm non AP ammo.

 

There is a slight difference between reselling 8 rd mags for a shotgun and a restricted handgun. Even though there is no LAW restricting FN's new Five Seven, the company itself does restrict sale of the pistol and its ammunition (handgun to LEO's only, ammo to departments only). ALL of its ammunition. Why? Because ALL of its ammo is capable of defeating body armor and PASGT helmets and great distances. I can already here the argument, "My lever action 30.06 can defeat body armor, so why can't I be trusted with the Five Seven?" Why? Because criminals rarely commit crimes with rifles. When they do, us cops can usually see them coming. I wear body armor to help level the playing the field when dealing with a thug sporting a pistol. I thank FN for being responsible enough to restrict a weapon and its ammunition without beig forced to. I'm not a fan of restricting gun owners rights. I can't wait for the AWB to expire. But I don't need the local gang bangers to bring the fight to me with a pistol capable of punching through my kevlar helmet before splattering the brains out the back of my skull, at 100 yards.

 

But when I first read about the Five Seven, I was in awe of the modern marvel of technology. I was stoked by what the geniuses at FN were able to accomplish. Then I read that they were restricting the pistol, because they want gang bangers killing cops as much was we want to get killed. I was even more impressed that FN would voluntarily limit their client base out of concern for cops, and responsible gun manufacturing. You see, throughout history, marvels had been turned to evil uses by bad people. Good intentions have been bastardized. Not saying some enterprising criminals still won't be able to get their grubby paws on some Five Sevens, but its not because they are getting sold on every street corner.

 

Start with all the JBT commits, call me Nazi, get it out of your system if you feel the need. I'm not any of these things. There are just somethings that I am glad the bad guys can't easily get their hands on. Not the way I wanted to introduce myself to this forum, but I had to express my opinion on this matter.

[ForGreatJustice 1]

Actually, I don't think your stance unreasonable at all. You're just looking out for the best interests of yourself and your colleagues. It's a condition of humanity for the "best interests" of perfectly decent human beings to come into conflict with each other, however. At the same time as I understand why law enforcement desires the restrictions, I don't think officers should expect people to give up freedoms from a political standpoint to make their job easier. It's just one of those situations where people butt heads.

 

I wasn't aware that ALL 5.7x28 mm rounds could penetrate soft body armor at range....all I've ever seen for sale are the hollowpoint types, which I just (maybe incorrectly) assumed would not penetrate.

 

Anyhow, we'll see about the 8 round mags. It seems people are getting importers already. Even if they never get sold to the public, its only a matter of time before some genius homebrews one.

[hartzpad 0]

txleapd, did you know that CDNN Investments is selling the FN Five Seven handgun to non-LEO civilians? Go ahead and download their lastest catalog and see for yourself. On the cover they offer the pistol for $699, no mention of LEO letter or anything. THen on page 44 they advertise the 5.7x28mm hp ammo and it specifically says "NO LE letter required." I have seen many people on other boards who have bought this pistol and ammo. It might just be that only the hollow point ammo is legal for civilians, but the pistol most certainly is legal for civies to own.

 

D/L the catalog here:http://lib1.store.vip.sc5.yahoo.com/lib/cdnn/CDNN2004-3.pdf

[txleapd 0]

It was my understanding the ammunition that the entire 5.7mm weapon systems were designed around was capable of penetrating body armor at 200 meters. It was also my understanding that FN Herstal was placing certain restrictions on these weapon systems (I know that the pistol and ALL of its ammunition is legal under the current law). It is entirely within the realm of possibility that I am wrong.

 

I do know that there is NO AP ammuntion for these weapon systems. The SS190 round is BALL ammunition, not AP. It is the bullet that these weapons were primarily designed to fire. It is this round that will penetrate IIIA body armor and PASGT at 200 meters. The L191 round is a tracer with the exact same ballistic properties as the SS190. These rounds have a muzzle velocity of 650 m/s (2,133 fps) out of the Five Seven. The SS192 is a soft point round, that is designed to reduce backstop damage at ranges for training. It still has a muzzle velocity of 640 m/s (2,112 fps), more than enough to defeat body armor and possibly PASGT. The SS193 is a subsonic round that still has a muzzle velocity of 305 m/s (1,007 fps). Still more than enough punch to penetrate body armor. I have not heard or seen any hollowpoint rounds for this weapons system, but if the muzzle velocity is close to even the subsonic ammo, I'm betting that it could still punch some body armor.

 

If any company wants to sell the Five Seven unrestricted with ammunition NOT capable of pentrating my body armor, knock yourself out. I don't care if you get the 20 round magazines (AWB aside, but thankfully that monster is going away). My sole concern is my safety, and the safety of my fellow officers.

 

Let me make this perfectly clear. If you are an honest, law abiding citizen, I don't care if you can legally purchase this pistol or its ammo and use it for your defense (I know that bad guys have body armor too). The problem, is that this pistol with the ammo it is designed to use will become an instant hit with the gang banger crowd. Why? It is a handgun that can puch through body armor at 200 meters. That's 660 feet (or 22 first downs for you football fans). And as I previously said before, body armor helps me and mine to level the playing field. We need all the help we can get.

 

The only way to LIMIT criminal access is either by restriction or regulation. How many registered firearms (machine guns, short barrelled firearms, silencers, etc...) have been used in crime? So few that it is practically non-existent. That's the point. If you take the time to follow the law, you probably aren't a criminal. YOU are not who worries me. Bad guys are.

 

Look guys, this is not a political agenda for me. It is just a safety concern. I dislike politics. Politics is what says that adding a pistol grip to you shotgun somehow makes it more deadly, or 15 bullets is worse than 10. Politics is why I got the brush off when I asked about buying a 12K for official use.

 

I don't want to tread on anyone's 2nd admendment rights any more than I want mine walked all over. But come on, do we really want something like this in the hands of the thug down the street? Cops wear body armor for a reason. Can we at least have that?

[G O B 3,516]

txleapd= I feel for you guys. Too many punks today with no regard for human life -yours,theirs,mine. Also the ban on 'armor piercing' ammo for handguns is one of the few prohibitions that make sense to me. With that said there will never be wearable body armor that can protect effectively against the heavier handgun rounds or medium and larger rifle/shotgun rounds. There is too much energy to absorb and not enough distance to dissipate it. BE CARFULL out there!

Instead of banning weapons it would make a lot more sense to require safer storage. The owernership of weapons requires the responsibility to keep them out of unauthorised hands-wether that be your childrens or some punk that broke in your house(saw the NRA sticker)looking to steal them. I know that if I were a LEO and got shot by some punk that stole the gun out of someones night stand drawer and only had to force a screen door to get in,I would take it personal!

 

LOL

 

G O B

[txleapd 0]

I don't want to divert this thread away from its original intended subject any more than I have. I do however want to thank you guys for allowing me to express my opinions without getting any flak.

 

I don't own a Saiga, but I became very interested when I read about them for the first time last year. I decided to check out some sights on the ole' internet, low and behold I found you guys. What better place to learn about something than an entire site dedicated. It speaks volumes to me about any product that has enough fans to field an entire sight. If I begin asking too many stupid and newby questions, I apologize now.

[SaltPeter 6]

How many registered firearms (machine guns, short barrelled firearms, silencers, etc...) have been used in crime? So few that it is practically non-existent.

 

While you're right that registered NFA guns are rarely used in crimes, the fact that the law requires them to be registered doesn't prevent bad guys from getting them. I have ran across three full autos seized from bad guys in the past year (a MAC 10, an AK, and a Valmet) and none of them were legal, registered guns. We don't really know where they came from.

[txleapd 0]

Saltpeter,

 

Unfortunately (as we all know) when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns

 

The most common illegal firearm we come across is the sawed off shotgun. Most semi auto firearms can be easily (and illegally) converted to full auto. And I can make an illegal silencer in less time it takes me to type this out. And for some unknown reason convicted felons and criminals easliy get thier paws on guns. Big suprise that they aren't getting them from the local gun store. The most common gun crime I come across, other than unlawfully carring a weapon, is possession of a stolen firearm. SUPRISE!!!

 

If a person pays the money and takes the time to register a SBR, machine gun, or silencer they rarely commit crimes with those weapons registered. It doesn't keep ALL of them from getting stolen, or even the RARE instance that one of these legal weapons is used in a crime, but that's life. Just because a bad guy MIGHT swipe my Bushmaster AR with the 11.5 inch barrel, doesn't give liberals the right take them ALL away. Granted MY AR is used for work, but I paid for it, it's mine, and I incurred all costs (taxes included). Gun laws impact your local area LEO's also.

[hardcorps1775 1]

welcome aboard, ya jbt bastiche ya! all comments and opinions welcome here!

[G O B 3,516]

Txleapd- Get a SAIGA-12 it's the most fun you can have with your pants on!!

Welcome aboard!

 

G O B

[ForGreatJustice 1]

FWIW, I'm looking at one of these 5.7x28mm and it looks like a seriously wimptastic round. I'm, not volunteering to catch one, but if its anything like a .223 or 5.45, the door of a Crown Vic would pretty much render it harmless.

 

I hear (and this is total internet/gun shop BS, so its probably not worth much) that the 5.7x28 doesn't have a lot in the way of secondary wounding mechanisms. That said, all you pretty much get is a .25 caliber hole. I wonder if they'll go through a trauma plate.

 

 

So anyway, back to the original topic, are all the 8-round mags ordered straight from EAA to the end-user? Does anyone know an FFL who maybe stocks them, so that we can all line up at his/her door in September??

[Control3 3]

Why are these mags LEO? The magazine itself doesn't seem to be LEO due to its capacity. Here is the definition of a large capacity ammunition feeding device, banned in '94:

The term "large capacity ammunition feeding device" is defined as a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device manufactured after September 13, 1994, that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than 10 rounds of ammunition. Large capacity ammunition feeding devices in knockdown - disassembled) condition consisting of all parts needed to assemble a complete large capacity ammunition feeding device are subject to regulation if the parts are segregated or packaged together and held by a person as the parts for the assembly of a particular device.

 

The magazine + shotgun doesn't seem to be LEO either. Here is the definition of an assault weapon (shotgun type), also banned in '94:

(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of -

(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and

(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

 

The Saiga only has 1 of the "evil features" listed above(#iv), so it's not an assault weapon. Also, iv does not specify the size of the detachable magazine. Lastly, the magazines aren't marked LEO, not date stamped, and do not exceed 10 rounds.

 

What am I missing here?

[G O B 3,516]

Controll3- Read past posts. Under'definitions' a shotgun that cannot accept a magazine with greater than 5 rounds capacity' is exempted from the AWB. If everyone insists on 3 more rounds before the sunset . Go to WWW.ATF.GOV

Make shure you have plenty of asprin!

 

G O B

[SaltPeter 6]

the magazines aren't marked LEO, not date stamped, and do not exceed 10 rounds.

 

Actually the 8 round magazines are marked LEO/gov use only, although it is only painted on.

[kmoore 3]

What am I missing here?

 

Section 922® and the way that it has been interpreted (most likely). The shotgun (made in russia) and the mags together are not importable (don't fall into the definition of "sporting firearms")

 

Ronswin has done a bit of research with the ATF. Ask him to post what he found out if you want (I'm not going to post it as I like to minimize 2nd hand stuff, esp when primary source is a member here.)

[rock47 1]

I apologise if I say something that bothers someone right of the bat. I admit I have not read all the posts, got throught the first six and had to say something.

A well armed citizenery is the first line of defense, even before the 'blue line' of defense.

If a LAW abiding citizen can take out a armed thug before the police show up then everybody is better off. The criminal is subdued and ready for the police or ambulance to take him away and no officer is in harms way. I know and am friends with many, many LEO's. Some are on the job a year, some are veterans and some are retired. Typically of the sixteen I personally know it is the retired guys that are pro 2nd amendment and the roockies are gun grabbers. Why? I think it has to do with that many of the retired guys have moved away from there old stomping grounds are not first name basis with local LEO, there faced with the fact they need to carry or be ready to defend themselves against an assaliant or some guy out for revenge from their past. Basically they have lost the power of the badge and the brotherhood it offers for protection, they have no back-up but what they got in there belt loop.

Where as the roockies and the veterans have developed a logic based on fear to, but where as they have family and a job and it's " us against them" attitude. They want to come home in one piece and they feel they are on the front lines and they got a gun and authority and it's the edge they need to survive and any edge anyone besides an LEO might have need to be eliminated.

I believe in the 2nd amendment it's one of the things that make this country great, that's why they eliminated gun ownership in the communist manifesto, it gives teeth to the 1st amendment an it gives Law enforcement there rights, they are the regulated militia, a sheriff is elected but his deputies are hired from the law abiding citizenery. If we are to live in a state where guns are taken out of the hands of the citizenery then I believe the first citizenery to be regulated should be the law enforcement. Make them like London Bobbies with only a wistle and a club.

Reduce LEO to a pistol and one extra mag for swat teams.

Then if that works for them then reduce our rights to own guns.

I know that would cause a shiver of fear amongst the LEO unions that would stop it cold, but these Police fraternitys are doing just that by supporting gun grabbers, many feel they will always be allowed to carry and recieve special privledges because they were once police, but they should be smarter than that and look around the world. They are digging there own grave to burry there's and our rights in.

[rock47 1]

I am still looking for 8rd. mags for my SF buddy, sold him my Saiga-12 and five mags, but he wants to take it to the field and definately wants more firepower, if you know what I mean. Maybe a LEO could sell him some 8rd. mags directly for a profit. I will contact him if a LEO PM's me with a source, then he and the LEO can talk and exchange ID's and the LEO could ship it to his SF barracks for instance. He needs them soon.

[Blackjack 1]

I found a couple on E-bay but the ending price was close to $225 for the pair.

[GTwannabe 1]

What about buying LEO 8-rounders, blocking them up to 5 rounds, scratching the "LEO Only" paint off and selling them that way?

 

It'll be much easier if the AWB does manage to sunset. I am expecting either a last minute renewal push tacked onto "must pass" legislation or an organized Democrat push for an even stricter ban after this one sunsets.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Since we're on the subject of police firepower vs criminals, I have had a theory for a while that could use some comments.

 

I've tended to believe that since military ammunition is designed with light recoil, mass production, wounding (as opposed to killing or incapacitating), full auto weapons, medium to long range applications, and the Hague Convention in mind, military rounds may not be the best for law enforcement.

 

I tend to believe that law enforcement would be better served by medium bore (35 to 40 caliber) intermediate powered carbines (ie cartridges between pistol caliber and full power length and energy). 35 Remington is a good example of that level of power, but I'm thinking more along the lines of the Russian 9x39mm, loaded with the same bullets used in pistols, ie hydrashoks or other high energy transmission bullets. A 150gr bullet flying as fast as a 125gr 7.62x39, or a 180gr as fast as a 150gr 7.62x39 might not penetrate a vest, but would hit pretty hard and likely injure a criminal beyond fighting ability. And without armor, a shot even at a small exposed part of the body would rapidly incapacitate the target.

 

Rapid incapacitation is mainly what I'm thinking of. Instead of fighting large numbers of enemy soldiers, for which you need full auto and light bullets, a few heavy bullets out of a semi-auto should, in my opinion, do a better job. If it's an issue of criminals issuing armor penetrating in the direction of cops, I would think heavy aimed shots would be the most desired.

 

The AKM has been successfully chambered in 35 Remington, and I am planning on making one for myself some day. If loaded with pistol bullets, I think it will even fit in an AR-15 mag (not sure about feeding though). I do think a shorter cased, higher pressure round with a similar base would be a good development for semi-auto carbines.

 

What say ye all?

[rock47 1]

There is already a whole line of grizzly and wisper cartridges chambered in the AR-15 that are exactly what you are talking about.

Side note: when I was trained to do close quarters combat, we were strictly taught to never engage targets in full auto, contrary to the movies and some militaries. The theory is quick follow-up shots are more accurate and are more deadly plus do not jeopardize fellow comrades. I for one have shot hundreds of thousands of rounds in training and truely believe that full-auto has it's place in only a few areas of combat. Excluding air combat and trying to shoot down a jet, but only relating to ground warfare, as follows.

(1) For engaging an enemy in inter locking sectors of fire, ie. Close Ambushing.

(2) For breaking out of a close ambush, ie. charging directly towards the enemy.

(3) For engaging the enemy with light machineguns secured by tri-pods firing bursts to keep the enemies head down in order to advance comrades towards the enemy.

Some times full auto shots from multiple assault rifles in controled 3 to 5 round bursts is effective against a charging enemy. Even if rounds do not even hit 25% of the time it demoralizes the enemy. They see it as an effective and seemingly solid wall of brass and lead halting their rush.

The main point is un less you are in a fire team, full-auto is nearly point less as you will expend your limited supplies of ammo and will miss 92% of the shots fired. Where as you have chance of missing by 75% in semi-auto.

So a semi-auto assault rifle is a much greater asset to the person engaging mutliple targets with limited amounts of ammo in distances from 25 to 250 yards.

a light weight cartridge increases ammo value, but if indvidauls are limited to ammo and magazine capacity then bigger is better, such as .308 or even a BAR in .300 win.mag. with a muzzle brake a three ten round mags clamped together would be a great choice for a individual interested in personal defence in places like California.

The sniper with his sigle-shot scoped rifle is more feared than any other ground combat force.

In essence anyone with a modern bolt-action rifle in 7mm or thirty caliber with a highly tuned scope and barrel is more dangerous than a gang banger with a tec-9.

That the fear placed in assault rifles and sub-guns is a misplaced fear. Really the fear should be in a whacky guy with a deer rifle with vengence on his mind.

I for one know that the more the ban assault weapons and handguns with hi-cap mags, whatever that is, the more people will pursue high velocity large caliber sniper rifles and larger caliber handguns.

The point is that they are after the guns, period.

Some day rehotoric will be, "lets ban sniper rifles", anything with a scope and over 6mm. Then they will say, "why do we need guns to hunt with that are modern", "we should only use scaterguns and muzzleloaders" and then they will say next that "arrows are effective for hunting" and the last straw will be that arrows are in human as "the animal has to run and bleed out a slow and frightful and very painful death", then they will ban hunting alltogether for private citizens. Just like Germany has done.

Only a few things to think about if you find yourself agreeing with the gun banning yet you own a gun or hunt.

They use divide and conquer tactics, they get the hunters against the "gun nuts" they get the hunters against the "hand gunners" and they get the archery hunters against the "modern rifle" hunters and they divide, divide and divide till they conquer.

That is why any attack on the 2nd amendment is an attack on all civil liberties. We are a free nation or are we?

We cease to have freedom when we lose the basic right to self defense.

Yet when illegaly operating drug cartels are shipping drugs, people and guns into this nation unchecked why is it that we are allowing this army of illegals the right to bear illegal guns in the hands of illegals yet we are banning the rights of legal citizens to own weapons to defend themselves and their communities from the illegal, felonist criminals that are murderers and rapists with no regard to society and law. Perhaps we should be tougher on the felon and criminal element than we are on law obiding citizens that chose to arm themselves.

Is it not silly when liberals are all for the legalization of drugs but are absolutely against the ownership of guns.

Just a few random thoughts for my friends and enemys.

Edited August 9, 2004 by rock47

[G O B 3,516]

Rock-47-- On this we agree. The anti gunners are now working on 'divide and conquer'. They are trying to get assinine state and local laws on the books to see what they can get away with. Here in Maryland we won by 1(ONE) vote ,and a democrat at that- the right to keep our semi-auto guns. The piece of crap legeslation was supposedly "just' a state extension of the AWB. HOWEVER it would have defined (in the small print) ANY semi-auto as an "assault weapon". This was just this past spring. Anyone want to take bets on how much out of state money was spent trying to ram that one up our a$$e$?

 

G O B

[inparidel 4]

All respect and deference to the LEOs for their input, but seriously, even though criminals prefer handguns, as was mentioned, What are the odds of gangbangers buying an $1,100 gun like the 5.7 (even if CDNN has it for $699)? People that register MGs, SBRs and buy expensive guns are not likely to commit crimes with them.

 

8 rd+ mags for Saigas in civilian hands are infinitely more likely to be used in defense of the home, or for sporting purposes. The BATFE has a myopic, or delusional, view of what "sporting purposes" are for import purposes. I regularly shoot IDPA tactical matches with a registered club. I gave up shooting Bambi as I was raised to do many years ago. IDPA tactical competition is a world-wide sport and the most fun a gun owner can have with his clothes on. I hav ben wanting 8-10 rd mags for my Saiga 12 since I bought it. The other guys in the club all have Benellis, 870s or other shotguns. I am the AK oddball with AK rifles tricked out with tactical equipment, and now my Saiga 12 shotgun (I also run a Colt M-4 when the course of fire demands it). The addition of a PG, folding stock and high-cap mags will enable me to make the other shotgunners look silly in terms of match time and reliability. . .and when you consider the cost of heir overpriced toys, they will become violently ill. We have a number of LEOs that shoot with us. Their common sense makes them sick about the restrictions on fellow civvy club members. They aren't dreading the AWB sunset at all.

 

I'd love to use a 5.7 pistol at the matches, and I was seriously thinking about buying one, but the ammo availability is shaky--and expensive. All we civvys can use is the "practice ammo," whatever that is. It's the fear of politically correct thugs that makes EAA of FN so skiddish. It's sad when the fear of the incredibly unlikely affects an entire market and a sporting world.

Edited August 15, 2004 by inparidel

[SaltPeter 6]

I agree. It appears that HK is saying that they will not be making anything other than USP Compacts in their new Georgia, USA plant. With the expiration of the AWB, they have the opportunity to start making HK91s, HK93s, HK94s, and SP89s but the anti gunners have effectively scared HK's pants off. (Sorry, gettin' off topic.)

Edited August 17, 2004 by SaltPeter