First impressions at the range

[rocinante 100]

This Russian SOB rocks!

 

I had never fired a 12 guage before and was a little apprehensive about the kick. I shot a box each Remington AA Super Sport and AA Super Handicap. For what I understood they are recommended rounds good for skeet and bird. Did not want to get carried away. Any way after the first two rounds I lost all concern about kick. I was surprised that at about 20 feet that this shot stayed tight and blasted a sizable hole about an inch across in my cardboard target. Makes me think bird shot would be pretty mean in the house if BG ever decides to foolishly enter my domain. AND ANOTHER THING. Those guys who say the ratcheting action of a pump shotgun is the scariest sound are full of it. This damn thing makes a real loud evil sound when you ratchet that first round. Man music at its best. At about sixty it just had a nice spread of bbs all over the place. I got carried away blasting 5 as fast as I could and got some BBs on the target next to me WHOOPS. The dude with his pretty little mattel AR15 with the holographic scope was cool about it though.

 

The gun operated perfectly. This is my russian timex. Absolutely no doubt it can take a licking and keep on ticking. Crude but just effective as a sledgehammer in my opinion.

 

I really appreciate the BHO feature. I think with practice I could do it but it seems to be a pain in the ass to hold the bolt open with your right while you insert the magazine with the left. More coordination than I possess. I also did not see the LRBHO as a big deal feature but it sure would be nice. I am use to it on my pistols and it is both a reassurance you are out of ammo and makes it easier to load the next magazine. I can live without that feature but it would be nice to have and I am going to check it out.

 

Cleaning this thing is a snap. I didn't even bother to look at the instructions and have never seen an AK in my life. Took me a minute to figure out how to line the slot back up in the bolt but this sucker is a no brainer to field strip. I had read threads where folks have said they fire hundreds or thousands of rounds without cleaning but that is against my grain of caring for my stuff. I wish my stupid ass S&W 915 pistol was as easy to field strip. I cuss that one release pin everytime I have to take it out. Really I am thinking about keeping it just for SHTF and target shoot with my Walther P1 because it is so easy to disassemble and clean. Sorry for the side track rant.

 

The finish on the gun sucks. Just rubbing it with light gun oil left black on the rag and already on like the bolt handle you get some shiny. I don't like the way the safety leaves a shiny scratch? Is there a more civilized safety that I can buy or is that just the way AKs are? While I am asking I am doing a conversion and is there a more substantial looking trigger guard? I will probably just mod the existing one but it just looks like what it is, a thin bent piece of sheet metal with a sharp edge.

 

 

I LIKE IT!

 

I got a folding stock and pistol grip conversion parts coming.

 

from the barrel to where the stock meets is 28 inches. Does anybody have a recommendation on a carry case that would be good for the shotgun folded?

[Gunfighter 1]

Hiya Roc,

Just wait till you try slugs or OO buckshot on a WATERMELON

GF aka Bird

[IndyArms 10,186]

the safety curve scratch is kinda like a popped cherry on a virgin... its all good... If it wasnt there, people would look at you askew, and wonder what was wrong with you... LOL

 

 

[THE_HUNTER 2]

My first ever shot slug I whistled through an old industrial heater!I was in love!#8 trap loads will blast right through the side of trashed semi trailers too.I used to like to shoot wasp nests outta one with the 12 and only a big hole would be left where they once were! Those were the days.....

[6500rpm 670]

I have a fair amount of things that go bang, but the Saiga 12 has to be my favorite for a lot of reasons. Definately the one I bring when I want to have fun.

I doubt you'll ever regret buying one.

[middlem2 0]

For cheaper and just as reliable ammo, I would suggest Federal #8 for shooting clays and Nobel 00 buck. I have not had a problem with a single round of either so far. It throws the Nobel shells about 10 feet straight right and its kinda funny in grass because they all stand up, like a bunch of mushrooms or something. Anyway, it makes them easy to pick up that way!

[shaneman153a 39]

Hey roc, just a tip. Personally, I don't ever oil the outside, you just don't need to with that paint finish. I oil the inside rails where the bolt carrier rides, the carrier itself, and the bore. I clean the gas tube and piston with bore scrub and let it dry. You are right, it is crude, but man it's fun!!

[mccumber1916 1]

Hey roc, just a tip. Personally, I don't ever oil the outside, you just don't need to with that paint finish. I oil the inside rails where the bolt carrier rides, the carrier itself, and the bore. I clean the gas tube and piston with bore scrub and let it dry. You are right, it is crude, but man it's fun!!

 

for good fun i recomend 3inch mag 00

them r fun

[jcfreak9901 0]

Just got my AK12ga too, and like yall was loving the way it feels. Even a full mag of slugs is a breeze. But I wiped most of the paint off when I touched it with the solvent. looks more authentic. Liking the idea of that russian furniture too.

[outofstep 0]

Holes in paper != holes in a badguy. Birdshot fails to penetrate deep enough in tissue to reliably stop pretty much anything aside from birds. Hence the name, birdshot. For home defense stick with slugs and buckshot.

[shaneman153a 39]

Hmm...I disagree. You ever seen what birdshot will do at 2 feet to a 3 inch tree? HD range, I think birdshot is the way to go if you have neighbors or kids. Aim high and you'll at least blind him and make him ugly. If you hit 90% of your pattern on a body at 10 feet, he's done.

 

my .02

[outofstep 0]

Hmm...I disagree. You ever seen what birdshot will do at 2 feet to a 3 inch tree? HD range, I think birdshot is the way to go if you have neighbors or kids. Aim high and you'll at least blind him and make him ugly. If you hit 90% of your pattern on a body at 10 feet, he's done.

 

my .02

 

Birdshot penetrates about 4 inches in calibrated ballistics gel at 5 yards. As "nice" as that is, I like my defensive ammunition to penetrate more than 22short. Actually, I like my ammo to penetrate better than the average air rifle. CNS hits stop a badguy, birdshot WILL NOT penetrate that deep. Tearing up paper, treebark, waterballons, etc are not good indications of stopping power.

 

You would never hunt a buck with birdshot. So why would you expect it to stop a much more dangerous animal?

 

Cheney's hunting buddy after getting blasted in the face can tell you just how effective birdshot is on two legged critters. As in it isnt.

Edited March 27, 2007 by outofstep

[jaak 0]

i agree on the finish, its some of the worst ive ever seen on any gun. its complete crap.

[shaneman153a 39]

Hmm...I disagree. You ever seen what birdshot will do at 2 feet to a 3 inch tree? HD range, I think birdshot is the way to go if you have neighbors or kids. Aim high and you'll at least blind him and make him ugly. If you hit 90% of your pattern on a body at 10 feet, he's done.

 

my .02

 

Birdshot penetrates about 4 inches in calibrated ballistics gel at 5 yards. As "nice" as that is, I like my defensive ammunition to penetrate more than 22short. Actually, I like my ammo to penetrate better than the average air rifle. CNS hits stop a badguy, birdshot WILL NOT penetrate that deep. Tearing up paper, treebark, waterballons, etc are not good indications of stopping power.

 

You would never hunt a buck with birdshot. So why would you expect it to stop a much more dangerous animal?

 

Cheney's hunting buddy after getting blasted in the face can tell you just how effective birdshot is on two legged critters. As in it isnt.

 

Where I'm from, we don't hunt deer at 10 ft. 9 rounds of birdshot will stop someone, I guarantee it. That's the beauty of these shotguns.

 

Mind you, I'm playing devil's advocate. I load steel hulled buck in mine. I'm just trying to tell you, no one will take birdshot across MY living room (about 10 ft if he's standing on the couch) and pursue his efforts.

 

Now I recognize the fact that you play a lot of rainbow six and sit around thinking about shit like this, but Cheney's buddy will tell you with no eyes and a bad case of acne, the intruder will get the point.

 

-zing-

 

And I didn't even have to google ballistic tables, BTW, welcome to the forum!

[outofstep 0]

Hmm...I disagree. You ever seen what birdshot will do at 2 feet to a 3 inch tree? HD range, I think birdshot is the way to go if you have neighbors or kids. Aim high and you'll at least blind him and make him ugly. If you hit 90% of your pattern on a body at 10 feet, he's done.

 

my .02

 

Birdshot penetrates about 4 inches in calibrated ballistics gel at 5 yards. As "nice" as that is, I like my defensive ammunition to penetrate more than 22short. Actually, I like my ammo to penetrate better than the average air rifle. CNS hits stop a badguy, birdshot WILL NOT penetrate that deep. Tearing up paper, treebark, waterballons, etc are not good indications of stopping power.

 

You would never hunt a buck with birdshot. So why would you expect it to stop a much more dangerous animal?

 

Cheney's hunting buddy after getting blasted in the face can tell you just how effective birdshot is on two legged critters. As in it isnt.

 

Where I'm from, we don't hunt deer at 10 ft. 9 rounds of birdshot will stop someone, I guarantee it. That's the beauty of these shotguns.

 

Mind you, I'm playing devil's advocate. I load steel hulled buck in mine. I'm just trying to tell you, no one will take birdshot across MY living room (about 10 ft if he's standing on the couch) and pursue his efforts.

 

Now I recognize the fact that you play a lot of rainbow six and sit around thinking about shit like this, but Cheney's buddy will tell you with no eyes and a bad case of acne, the intruder will get the point.

 

-zing-

 

And I didn't even have to google ballistic tables, BTW, welcome to the forum!

 

So having a basic knowledge of terminal ballistics means I play rainbow six? Hell, I didn't even know they went into that at all in that game, or any video game at all for that matter. 15ft closer than 5 yards doesn't magically give birdshot, shot across your living room, the ability to penetrate over 12 more inches to meet the FBI minimum for a defensive round. Seeing as how Cheney's buddy didn't lose his vision, and needed almost no medical attention after being shot right in the face with birdshot, you'd think that would tell you something.

 

No offense there buddy, but the guy advocating birdshot as a defensive round kinda sounds like the one playing too many videogames. Or smoking abit too much weed.

[pedal2alloy 206]

I think Cheney's hunting buddy was at least 60 feet away and I don't think he got the whole pattern either.

 

Any load at 10 feet is going to be some nasty shit. Plus, you've got 7 or 9 more in there, right?

[whatmanual 44]

Cheney shot him from 30 yards away...according to the official report that is. Huge difference for bird shot (let alone "pattern" percentage).

 

Also, quoting minimum standards is an injustice if you don't consider the other factors involved....like penetration at a given range. The need things that can go through your car door from across the street with some effectiveness....or do enough damage when it gets there. A .32 caliber 00 shot does this nicely from those sorts of ranges -and at close range it will probably knock an opponent 3 feet back to a suitable spot for dying. Its probably why most entryways are tiled in my opinion.

 

Those who doubt birdshot against an unarmored opponent:

Feel free to shoot a washing machine/car door or similar from 15 feet away with bird shot (#4 or #6 is just fine). Im not out west in Nevada anymore -else I would. Please post the pics if you do

 

In any case, 4 inches at close range x1 1/4oz. shot (thats a lot of 4 inch penetrations) is effective enough for me "within" the confines of home defense. Would I bet my life on it? Of course. Would I use it versus.... "armored" opponents? Probably not....only the naive would. Either way...my rule of thumb is past 25 yards or so is what I consider "peppering range" for bird shot. Have that buck/slug magazine ready!

 

 

Side note:

Although I load almost 00 buck exclusively, some people have to consider adjacent rooms and neighbors (apartments). OVER penetration can be a factor. Drywall isnt all that thick.

 

 

 

~S

[MikeD 541]

I promise I could get the job done with birdshot even against an armored intruder with a saiga. If, in all those rounds, they get lucky enough I don't hit them in the head or shread other unprotected areas. He will probably be so bet up from the multiply blast ( like getting hit with a slede hammer) that I can finish him up with my stock. You don't even want to get shot with beanbags in at the average distance of a home defense range. Also, armor stands up to buckshot the same as birdshot. For those in apartment, have kids........ birdshot will do fine and be safer. For those with just an ol'lady in the bed, go with some 00 or #4 buck.

[TonyRumore 1,332]

I don't think you need to use 00buck or #4 shot on old lady, Mike. I would start with a swift bitch slap myself.

[whatmanual 44]

lol

 

 

 

but I should correct...I was thinking of my #4 lead or #6 (Federal Game Shock = "game load" and not technically bird).

 

 

As for any would be intruder even having the ability to get up from several close range shots like that?

Well, no need to bother with butt of the shotgun for me (rather keep the gun pointed down range at all times if at all possible anyway).

 

Fringe benefit of Tony's custom Shark Brake of course: don't need a bayonet.

 

 

Honestly...nobody wants to see ANY sort of round come out of this within the close proximity of a room -let alone buck rounds being a mere .75 seconds behind them (3rd round down).

 

 

And before "they" pry it from my cold dead fingers (as they say)....They'll probably have to pry this out first.

Tromix...this aint your daddy's shotgun. And if it is, best mind what he says~!

 

 

~S

Tony...Thank you very much for the work you did on mine. Flawless buddy...flawless!

Semper Fi.

Edited March 27, 2007 by whatmanual

[shaneman153a 39]

What in the hell are you talking about? FBI standards? Since when do they dictate what I can use in my home? I can't pass their PT test either, should I not come out of my room in a home intrusion because I don't meet their standards? I think it's 10 inches first of all, and second, they say anything smaller than a 9mm won't do the job. So are you gonna tell me a .380 won't kill someone at 10 ft? .32 acp? I agree, both are mouse guns, but they have multiple rounds for a reason. 10 ft, 10 rounds of birdshot WILL stop the fucker. If he doesn't die and he sues you for mutilating his body, oh well, at least you didn't get involuntary manslaughter for putting some 1 oz slugs in your neighbor's kids' crib! And it WILL stop him. Hell I'll shoot him with door-breeching round, that'll but me enough time to buttstroke his ass down.

[jcfreak9901 0]

HOW BOUT THE IDEA OF LIVING ON WITH LEAD POISONING THE REST OF HIS LIFE. THATS SOME REMINDER TO KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN

[mccumber1916 1]

HOW BOUT THE IDEA OF LIVING ON WITH LEAD POISONING THE REST OF HIS LIFE. THATS SOME REMINDER TO KEEP YOUR NOSE CLEAN

 

hell... i say we use the "not for home def." flechette rounds

pin the intruder to the wall

http://www.hi-vel.com/Catalog__20/Speciali...l_ammuniti.html

these guys got some great fun lookin rounds

[jcfreak9901 0]

or some of those chain link cut ends or barbed wire between lead balls 12ga loads in delta force mag

[csspecs 1,987]

I really would rather use bird shot than some sort of weird load of chain and barbed wire. Buck shot or slug would be preferred over that.

[jcfreak9901 0]

I'm really not sure which I would dislike more, a load of any of that stuff in the gut or gunning it through my barrel.

[shaneman153a 39]

do you think if I used the dragon's breath round the guy would sue?

 

*note= I know it won't cycle, don't bother telling me*

[bugeye 2]

I took "Ivan" out tonight for his first shoot. Ran a box of Winchester #8 heavy game load on the #2 gas setting. Everything worked as promised. Switched the gas port to #1 and shot 5 magnum slugs through Ivan. All 5 were within the target circle at 25 yards, well dispersed but in the circle. Then leaving the gas setting on #1 I shot another box of the same Winchester#8. The first shell was FTE! I thought Ivan may be a fickle Saiga, but the rest of the box went through without a hickup! I was suprised at the easy recoil even with the slugs. This is the most fun you can have with your clothes on!

 

OK all this took about 15 min. Dang if Ivan can eat some lead up fast! My only complaint is the difficulty I have getting the 10 rd AGP mags into Ivan. It taint easy, something will need some modification. And lastly the legend continues...... 4 people at the range gave me smiles and thumbs up! Ivan definatly commands attention!