hartzpad 0 Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 Sales guy was out so I spoke with EAA's gunsmith. He said that it is illegal to import 8 round Mags for a Saiga 12 because of a Sporting Ban bill that is not part of the Assault Weapons Ban. Is he referring to 922r regs? I asked him what the bill was called so I could look it up and he said he didn't know. Help me make some sense of this. Why would 8 round mags be banned with the Assault Weapons ban gone? I also called: AK USA and their number doesn't work AK USA-MidWest and their number doesn't work either Called AK USA and they said that the 8 round mags almost don't exist, that there were only 100 allowed into the country legally. I don't think I believe that. Called Kreb's Customs and they only have 5 round mags. Where do Law Enforcement people get mags for their Saiga 12's? What can we do about getting some mags? Would someone else call EAA sales department and ask them? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 I emailed EAA last night about it too. kalashnikov usa carries them right? ...that's where Saltpeter got his leo ones, but he said their customer service was terrible. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hartzpad 0 Posted September 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 Ya, supposedly they carry them, but I can't find a phone number that works for them. Let me know if you can find a way to contact them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 EAA emailed me back with the following... "Shotguns were not coveed by this law.... they can not have high caps by the sporting purpose test." That's all they said. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave_A 0 Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 EAA emailed me back with the following... "Shotguns were not coveed by this law.... they can not have high caps by the sporting purpose test." That's all they said. Sounds like they're refusing to bring them in due to concerns that the ATF might make the Saiga a DD.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ForGreatJustice 1 Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 No, they're quite right. G. Bush senior signed an executive order in 1989 that prohibited the import of nonsporting weapons. The same regulation that requires you to use less than 10 foreign parts in your AKs, etc, also places a STRICTER requirement on importers and dealers. They cannot import certain restricted items for assembly into nonsporting weapons. While there is some degree of interpretation, and while EAA may just be sort of waffling, there's also the Federal Excise tax, which must be paid when a sale to private citizens is a possibility. BTW, has anyone looked into using Valtro PM-5 mags? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 ah HAH! someone else saw that freakin law too huh? I been trying to find that damned thing again, but so far no good. now im digging in my NY state laws and having a mild stroke. I love gun laws i tell ya. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Salmonaxe 0 Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 (edited) Bleah... All these laws are annoying. I bet that importation law is what generated the monstrosity I call my SL8-1. XP Anyways... But, if someone makes 8rd mags in the USA, then everything should be good...? It seems stupid that EEA would say that shotguns weren't a part of this law, when they obviously were! It talked directly about magazine capacity. Where else did the "Five" round limit come from??? Heck, to me 8rds isn't even "High Capacity"... it would have to be a 20rd drum or something to be Hi Cap. Oh, I know there's that 5 round sporting use importation limit, but heck, this rifle has a detachable magazine AND you can convert it to no longer be an "import". So legally, if you make it USA compliant then it doesn't matter what the size of the mags are. This just throws this into a massive grey area.... If they gave you an answer, it would be nice if it was an intelligent, informed answer. Has anyone noticed their gun dealers acting nonchalant, or even a little irritated since the ban is up? I would think they'd be a little excited, or at least happy.... Maybe it's because now they aren't going to make assloads of money on all the preban shit they stocked up on? XD All I know, is that I went to my local gun store, and asked them if they had anything new in stock since the ban was up and this was the answer I got, "All that ban was about was folding stocks." I was like, "I'm talking about normal capacity magazines..." An he was like, "Oh those will be cheaper because of the hi caps." The thing is, I was talking about "Hi Caps"!!!! Don't these guys realize that there is no such thing as HI CAPs anymore?!!? BAH! Oh, and before I walked out, I saw a bunch of piles of Glock, Sig and assorted other mags that Were labeled "High Cap magazines! Were $90 now only $54!!!" I didn't check them since they were behind the counter, but I bet they were "LEO only" I wonder when we'll see the real effects of the ban being gone??? Edited September 15, 2004 by Salmonaxe Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beerslurpy 1 Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 I got the same ass-hat on the phone that you guys did and posted my experience in the other EAA selling 8 round mags thread. I think they dont want to sell anything over 5 rounds because someone might notice and say 'holy shit its an ugly shotgun lol ban" which the ATF can do thanks to the 1968 act. I wish that we had more progun people in the senate. 90 percent of the senate is people rated F for gun issues. Even though it is republican controlled, they are worst bunch of sellouts ever. I wish there was some way to counteract the presecnce of all the fucking liberals in miami that get the democratic senators reelected in florida all the time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Control3 3 Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 It is illegal to attach a magazine of greater than 5 rounds to your Saiga. This has nothing to do with the recently expired ban. ATF and EAA are referring to the 89 ban: A shotgun having a magazine capacity of more than 5 shells is prohibited from importation as a sporting firearm under Title 18 United States Code (U. S. C.), 925(d)(3). Therefore it is a violation Title 18, U. S. C. 922 ® to assemble such a shotgun from imported parts as provided in Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 479 (formerly Part 178) 478.39. Sorry. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Salmonaxe 0 Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 Yeah, but as soon as you replace 3 parts with domestic parts, the shotgun becomes a domestic firearm!!! If you use an imported mag, I will not be in violation of the law (though getting an imported mag would prove some difficulty) If mags are made domestically, then there should be NO PROBLEM with them! Because if you look at the ATF parts list, one mag equals 3 parts: Mag body, Follower, and Floorplate. As soon as you put a domestic mag on your saiga, even if it hasn't been converted, it will automatically be considered a domestic firearm. Think of it this way.... Have you ever seen mag extensions for a tubular fed shotgun before??? I sure have! What "was" illegal, was puting them on any "semi-auto" shotgun. It didn't keep them from making them just because someone could possibly make an illegally configured shotgun. That's the owners responsibility to be aware of the law! I think the same should apply to these magazines. If anything, someone will make them domestically, and there will be no problems. ....except that the saiga might get a lot of unwanted attention. Let's just hope that no one takes notice... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 Have you ever seen mag extensions for a tubular fed shotgun before??? I sure have! What "was" illegal, was puting them on any "semi-auto" shotgun. There were plenty of semi shotty's that were preban by nature of their manufacture date. Also, many Semi's used the mag extension as their only "evil feature" so you were not creating an AW (these terms are so "week old" ) What was verbotten was putting a mag extension plus a pistol grip, bayo lug, or what not on a post ban shotty. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
USMC_LB 4 Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Salmonaxe 0 Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 Have you ever seen mag extensions for a tubular fed shotgun before??? I sure have! What "was" illegal, was puting them on any "semi-auto" shotgun. There were plenty of semi shotty's that were preban by nature of their manufacture date. Also, many Semi's used the mag extension as their only "evil feature" so you were not creating an AW (these terms are so "week old" ) What was verbotten was putting a mag extension plus a pistol grip, bayo lug, or what not on a post ban shotty. Well, I guess I wasn't specific enough.... I just didn't want to go to an even longer diatribe over the in-discrepancy of a now dead law. Even still, what you say supports my main argument... Thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spur0701 0 Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 If you look at it rationally from a business standpoint if you were running EAA you would do the same thing. I image their profit margin on the Saiga is pretty good and jepordizing it for the smaller potential profit on the sale of 8 round magazines just doesn't make good business sense. If you look at it that way I even doubt Izhmash would make a sale of 8 round magazines if they knew they were going to be imported to the US. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ForGreatJustice 1 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 I said it once, I'll say it again. Has anyone tried Valtro PM-5 mags? http://www.valtrousa.com/pm5photofoldingstocklarge.html They're expensive at $75 a pop, but its less than the asking price for a 12c mag from most people. Also, if you have access to a brake and a spot welder, making your own Saiga 12 mags should be a cakewalk. The feed lips are just bent metal anyhow. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Control3 3 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 (5) Muzzle attachments I have the threaded Saiga12. Does the thread protector and/or external choke count as a muzzle attachment for the purposes of 922r? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Hummm, that's a good question, I wouldn't think so, but it might. You could add an extra US part and you'd be covered still if you are unsure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
inparidel 4 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Actually, we need to remind the BATFE, as well as EAA, that IDPA competition IS an international sport. I shoot it all the time with my club. We do rifle, pistol and shotgun as well as three gun. This iis an INTERNATIONAL sport with many, many thousands of members. We use high caps in all the firearms we use. IDPA, IPSC and other tactical competition IS a very legitimate sporting purpose. The definition should not be left to the personal life-experience of one or two BATFE people. That's very undemocratic. If I need to send a copy of my membership and or my certification as a safety officer to get 8 rounders, then so be it, but address the reality of the sports that are out there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Imparidel- Maybe you can send the "secretary" rule books/old competion announcements, invitation,ect. so that the sport will not be "unknown". ?? (Hell the old poop might even want to compete!) G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
USMC_LB 4 Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Yes, it is all explained here: Part Counts per different models for 922® compliance The parts count for the standard imported Saiga-12 is 13 parts. IF you have a removable choke the count is 14 parts. Below is a list of all the parts and how my shotgun is configured to comply with 922® Parts marked Russian (10) Parts marked US Compliant (5) *Parts marked ( N/A ) do not exist on a Saiga shotgun (1) Receiver---------------------------------Russian (2) Barrels-----------------------------------Russian (3) Barrel extensions >>>>>>>>>>>>>( N/A ) (4) Mounting blocks, trunion>>>>>>>>>( N/A ) (5) Muzzle attachments---------------------Russian (6) Bolts--------------------------------------Russian (7) Bolt carriers------------------------------Russian (8) Operating rods>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>( N/A ) (9) Gas pistons-------------------------------Russian (10) Trigger housings >>>>>>>>>>>>>( N/A ) (11) Triggers============== US COMPLIANT (12) Hammers============= US COMPLIANT (13) Sears >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>( N/A ) (14) Disconnectors========== US COMPLIANT (15) Buttstock============= US COMPLIANT (16) Pistol grips============ US COMPLIANT (17) Forearms, handguards------------------Russian (18) Magazine bodies-------------------------Russian (19) Followers---------------------------------Russian (20)Floorplates -------------------------------Russian Russian (imported) parts = 10 US made - compliant parts = 5 I added a US compliant ( trigger, hammer & disconnect ). I also will add the US made pistol grip ( so it doesnt count against me ) I also will a US made folding butt-stock ( so it doesnt count against me ) This leaves me to be able to use imported mags and imported chokes ( muzzle attachments ) Now I am 922® compliant ! If you DO NOT have a removable choke then you could use a foreign buttstock or pistol grip.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
screaming eagle 0 Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 I spoke with most dealers in my area. (DFW TX) They all concurred, 8 rd mags aren't going to happen, at least not in any significant #s. "1989 sporting use test" However, making your own as some have done is viable. ordering from overseas is still an option for now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
USMC_LB 4 Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 (edited) Who has made their own ?? I have seen several people say they are going to attempt to.... but I havent seen any finished product. I cant see any decent way to put 2 5 rounders together that will be as rigid as the original.... as far as modifying existing 10 round mags to work seems difficult at best... It would be like trying to get AK mags to work in a AR... oh wait ! They have that!!! Too bad they had to build a WHOLE NEW COMPLETE LOWER for it to work. No way to modify the mags... If I had a contact in the injection molding field I would defintely be making LB's Custom Shotgun Magz!!!! $25 all day long... then when the money started rolling in I would start R&D on the 25 round drum... Edited September 18, 2004 by USMC_LB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ForGreatJustice 1 Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Some dude is selling 8 rounders on ebay at $120 a pop. Not quite worth it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Control3 3 Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 (4) Mounting blocks, trunion>>>>>>>>>( N/A ) Don't all stamped AKs, including the Saiga12, have a trunnion? That's what the barrel mounts to, which is then pinned to the stamped frame? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Control3 3 Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Some dude is selling 8 rounders on ebay at $120 a pop. I've seen these from time to time on Ebay for prices $100 and up. Usually they don't sell. At my local gun show there is a Ukranian guy who asks $200 for them. I don't know if he actually sells any. That UK company that ships these to the US, that's where I think most of the people are getting them. After the pound-dollar conversion it works out to $70, so it's still not cheap as the LEO price, as it SHOULD be. That UK company I'm sure is making loads of money off of many Yanks, who are in turn trying to subsidize their mag purchase by selling a few extra on Ebay for another markup. Still, $70 sounds a lot easier than trying to convert magazines or make a 10 rounder out of two 5 rounders. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Control3 3 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 IF you have a removable choke the count is 14 parts. Thanks for clarifying that. I don't have any removable chokes, but that's the model I have and the thread protector probably counts as a muzzle attachment, lame as it is! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Salmonaxe 0 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Don't all stamped AKs, including the Saiga12, have a trunnion? That's what the barrel mounts to, which is then pinned to the stamped frame? I think they consider the trunion+ stamped reciever all one part.... maybe because milled recievers are all one part and it's confusing to clarify? I know that copy of the ATF parts count letter didn't list it. So, if they said it once, then they shouldn't be able to go back on it. Also, on the parts count letter, they never listed muzzle attachments as a part on a saiga shotgun, even though there is the model of saiga that has the threads for chokes and they should have known that. If they didn't list it, then why should we consider it an extra part? Are they going to list internal chokes as a muzzle attachment? .... I wouldn't think so, so wouldn't it be unfair to do it for external chokes? It's not like it's a flash hider, or a grenade launcher.... chokes have a legitimate sporting purpose. If you're really concerned, you could always take the thread protector off? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TEXASAK73 13 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Will the mag clamps work on the Saiga 12 mags? Or you could always just clamp them together with duct tape. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
USMC_LB 4 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 If you have a threaded barrel and there is something threaded to it.... you have there a muzzle attachment Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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