KySoldier 2 Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Siagalova 0 Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 (edited) you know they'll be on to us now.................................I'm getting my tinfoil hat ready what's that van parked outside?!? did any of you guys order cable?!? you know if they say no, some of you guys will be S.O.L.! but a difinitave word is what you guys have been asking for! I'm kinda curious tooo. Edited September 20, 2004 by Siagalova Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DHunter 1 Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 I for one would like to know if the conversion meets the criteria or not before I tear into mine. And if it is a green light, we can get the 8 or 10 round mags imported with no problem. Let me know what the official answer is. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKATTACK 5 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 KySoldier, make sure you make reference and include a copy of the letter that ATF had sent to Soupbowl Enterprises, it would be interresting to see if they acknowledge and honor the letter. Thanks, AKATTACK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Integratedj 1 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Also include the fact that these are used for shooting events such as ipsc etc... I hunt quail and dove with mine as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Noob 0 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Be careful what you ask for...you just might get it. Seek clarification and it may come back in a form you did not anticipate. I would volunteer as little info as possible....and reference precedent as other posters indicated in the SOup Bowl letter from ATF. State what you interpret law to say (get from other posts on here about parts count on the Saiga 12 SPECIFICALLY. ) DOn't sink our ship as this has the potential to do..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted September 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mickporno 0 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 oh crap ....we're screwed now!!! i better start putting mine back like it was....and burn these mags... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 I'd leave well enough alone. Does anyone question that you can convert your Saiga to 10 foriegn parts or less and legally configure our shotties with pistol grips? There is a ton of precedent with rifles, and we already have their ruling on which parts the Saiga is considered to have. Why ask them to restate or clarify, we can only be dissappointed by such a response. 8 rnd mags. Doesn't really matter what they say, you won't see them available accross the counter until a business decides they want to provide them. And when/if they do, you can bet they'll ask/seek clarification at that time. I don't see the point. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
emclean 0 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 looks good to me, IOM it will be better to ask the ATF under Bush than wate and see if he is reelected, if you can get back that it is ok before Nov.2 I don't see the point. when dealing with fed law, it is better to ask permition, and not for forgivness. at least he can show the intent to follow the law. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted September 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 when dealing with fed law, it is better to ask permition, and not for forgivness. That sounds like a famous line. I do think its best to get an answer...if the laws are so clear cut now, I don't think we would all still be arguing it back and forth on here like we are. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mickporno 0 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 if the laws are so clear cut now, I don't think we would all still be arguing it back and forth on here like we are. i didn't know we were....we've been going over this issue for over a year now on several different forums and digging out rulings, laws and info on this subject in preparation for the AWB sunsetting....and now we're gonna tuck our tails and say "please mr. BATF , can i convert my gun"??....mines done....and my name is ken. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Salmonaxe 0 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 I'd leave well enough alone. Does anyone question that you can convert your Saiga to 10 foriegn parts or less and legally configure our shotties with pistol grips? There is a ton of precedent with rifles, and we already have their ruling on which parts the Saiga is considered to have. Why ask them to restate or clarify, we can only be dissappointed by such a response. 8 rnd mags. Doesn't really matter what they say, you won't see them available accross the counter until a business decides they want to provide them. And when/if they do, you can bet they'll ask/seek clarification at that time. I don't see the point. I'm kinda in agreement with kmoore. If they rule the other way (which would be very un-democratic) then myself and I'm sure many other people would be SOL. Adding the Saiga Forum might be just putting fuel on the fire. I'm wondering if I should remove my conversion post?? I'm sure that the ATF doesn't want to see these shotties out there with the p-grip configuration and they might come up with any excuse to say that it's not okay to have them. I just really hope they rule that it's okay, because converting back could be a real bitch! Though, as the law is written, I see nothing wrong with the conversion. Isn't it funny how touchy we all are now that the AWB is gone. Kinda like the Elephant and it's chain.... I couldn't break it when it was young, so even when it strong enough to break it easy, it doesn't try. oh crap ....we're screwed now!!! i better start putting mine back like it was....and burn these mags... My sentiment, exactly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted September 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Mickporno: I'm glad you feel so confident in your gun. I agree that the conversion is legal with all that I've seen in the laws. I've got my parts trickling in right now to do mine. The 8rd mag, I see no law saying we can't have them either. Now EAA and others seem to think that the mag is a no no, but, perhaps they are just trying to keep the Saiga-12 legite and avoid a DD classification. I'm not writing the ATF to beg for permission. I thought it best to get the final answer on the subject with no room for interpretation. People in the last few months have referred to the "grey area," well, with a favorable response from the ATF, there will be no such area anymore. Salmonaxe: Who ever said the ATF was democratic. I am very afraid that the S-12 will be the next DD once it becomes popular in its converted "evil" form, whatever that is. Perhaps it is best that I not contact the ATF so that I do not show how popular it has become to own/convert these wonderful guns. If you all feel strongly that we should leave well enough alone, I will not send it. My parts are here and I've got plenty to keep me busy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Siagalova 0 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Just because some one asks doesn't mean the LAW WILL CHANGE!!! wouldn't someone like to know? what EXCACTLY IT IS? asking isn't going to change it? I think some of you guys don't care what the law is and want to just have your gun with the conversion. I think it's more important to be legal here (on this forum) - because later it'll be sites like this that people will critisize assault weapon people for!!! remember we are broadcasting to the world. Hey, I think these laws suck! we should have the right to have and own anything we want! the second amendment SHOULD garantee that! if you are not intending on useing these guns for crime - and it's apparent that we all don't, fun seems to be the intnet - then who cares what KIND of gun it is! KY's not spoiling anything - better now in these harmless circumstances - than pulled over on the side of the road in hand cuffs!!!! looking at some kind of felony, then you're really screwed! That letter is just words! sorry guys,the tyrating elvis has left the building! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
McUZI 1 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 (edited) Edited September 21, 2004 by McUZI Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted September 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Thank you all for your replies. McUZI: Do you have a link to the ruling on the suomi drum? I'd like to know, that was going to be my next project. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hartzpad 0 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 I agree, please don't send the letter, but if you must, send a copy of inparidel's letter, only asking for a ruling as to why the 8 round mags are illegal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mickporno 0 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Mickporno: I'm glad you feel so confident in your gun. I agree that the conversion is legal with all that I've seen in the laws. I've got my parts trickling in right now to do mine. The 8rd mag, I see no law saying we can't have them either. Now EAA and others seem to think that the mag is a no no, but, perhaps they are just trying to keep the Saiga-12 legite and avoid a DD classification. I'm not writing the ATF to beg for permission. I thought it best to get the final answer on the subject with no room for interpretation. People in the last few months have referred to the "grey area," well, with a favorable response from the ATF, there will be no such area anymore. Salmonaxe: Who ever said the ATF was democratic. I am very afraid that the S-12 will be the next DD once it becomes popular in its converted "evil" form, whatever that is. Perhaps it is best that I not contact the ATF so that I do not show how popular it has become to own/convert these wonderful guns. If you all feel strongly that we should leave well enough alone, I will not send it. My parts are here and I've got plenty to keep me busy. we've been scouring the laws for over a year now...knowing the AWB was gonna sunset ***or at least hoping*** and no where have i seen anything to make me think what we've done so far is not legal...the 8 round mag thing has been a thorn in our side for a long time too as we could not find anything concrete on them that said they were illegal for civilians to own....again a grey area with dealers....so we went to england to get them...now we have them and i'd like a few more please... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1st Ranger 0 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Thank you all for your replies. McUZI: Do you have a link to the ruling on the suomi drum? I'd like to know, that was going to be my next project. I think that ruling was about the modification of existing pre-ban magazines to work in a weapon that they were not intended for. From what I understand, the modified magazine had to still work in it's "intended," or "original" weapon. So, modifying a drum magazine by replacing or adding a feed tower, would render that drum useless in its "origonal" weapon. That same rule was one of the reasons surrounding everyone's reluctance to modify their USAS-12 magazines (along witht he whole high-cap shotgun mag issue). Any modefied USAS magazine may no longer work in a USAS, therefore violating the BATFs rule. But, now that the AWB has sunsetted, that should no longer apply, since there is no longer a distinction between Pre-ban, Post-ban, or LEO magazines/drums. 1st Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted September 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 That's what I was thinking. Don't know how difficult it'd be to combine two magazines though, I don't weld. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Well said Inparidel. My latest web surfing re the "sporting purpose clause" has yeilded an interesting site. I'll post it's link in a new thread, but suffice it to say the powers that be have already ruled against our competitions (IDPA, IPSC, 3-gun, etc) as meeting the definition of sporting purposes, but it is not written in stone. The author makes a strong case for considering our sports as legit sporting purposes, and indicates that the definition evolves as the populace becomes more involved in them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beerslurpy 1 Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Dont send the fucking letter! The ATF taking no action is infinitely superiour to the ATF possibly takling action. What possible benefit can ATF action have for us? Legitimizing our already legal shotguns? Last time I checked, the police werent arresting people at the local range for having saigas, regardless of configuration. Let sleeping dogs lie. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 I don't think the letter is a good idea. That said--If you HAVE to poke that bear with a stick--use imparidel's version. It is better to poke the bear with a stick that is less pointy. We may be able top survive the bite!(maybe) G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted September 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 OK, ok, everyone seems to have increasingly strong opinions against consulting the ATF about anything, especially pistol grips, so I will not send it. I thank you for your responses and am glad everyone at least agrees. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
emclean 0 Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 (edited) are you all so scared that you might have voilated the law that you have to scream when some one wants to be shure they are being legal? if the BATF is going to clasifie the saige 12 as a DD it will, regardless of one letter looking for clerifacion. and would you rather see the question come up with Bush or Kerry in office? Edited September 22, 2004 by emclean Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted September 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Inparidel: Wow, you're throwing around increasingly more hostile terms there. I can't believe I'm being called a "BATFE troll." If you would like for me to explain why I was curious about the suomi drum I will. I am awaiting transfer of my full auto M11/9 for which auto-werkes and others used to make the drum. I contacted them and they said they wouldn't be making them even now that the ban has expired. It never crossed my mind to somehow combine a suomi (9mm) drum with a saiga mag. I admit that I'm probably younger than most of you all, but I'm not the youngest. Also, I've posted quite a bit in this forum and take it very seriously. I'm glad this site hasn't been overcome with people like Full_Auto_990. Some members have contributed greatly (Sheik's website, PvtPyle's law essay, etc) and I've gained alot of knowledge for which I am grateful. I thought that was why we were all here. Emclean: I thank you and the others for keeping a cool head instead of jumping to conclusions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ForGreatJustice 1 Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 (edited) I agree. The ATF is not the law. They're executives until they rule on something, there *IS* no standard outside of the text of any relevant legislation. Here's a safer idea: If you need extra clarification from an expert CONSULT YOUR OWN LAWYER, preferably one familiar with gun law. But if you go bothering the ATF about this, their arbitrary and tyrannical interpretation is going to decide that we Saiga owners are a "problem". Edited September 22, 2004 by ForGreatJustice Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted September 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Funny you should mention that, a lawyer here that felt like the PG conversions were illegal, suggested that I write the letter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 how exactly are you informed? hope theplace you bought it from calls you and tells you before amnesty time is up? cause, if uncle sam wants mine, hes going to have to buy it from me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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