Why .308 over 7.62? Honest question, don't kill me.

[recoil 0]

Bit of background so nobody thinks I'm just some troll/dumbass:

 

I've been looking at purchasing a rifle for fun and maybe for hunting. My shooting experience has been limited to stuff when I was active US Army, like 5.56mm m4, 7.62 m240b, 9mm beretta, and .50 etc... Fun stuff indeed, but I havn't shot since then. My wife brought up wanting to learn how to shoot(mostly pistol/shotgun though) and a buddy of mine is moving up here (Pacific NW) and mentioned wanting to hunt... I thought now would be a good excuse to get a rifle before my wife ends up convincing me to spend the money on furniture or something.

 

So anyway, I was poking about a local gunshop looking at a Browning BAR Safari in .308 which was a bit steep(although quite nice looking) and I thought there ought to be more out there that should be cheaper... plus the military mindset in me wants something more battle oriented and a higher mag cap. So I spent a few hours poking about the web(4AM now) and have been reading up on the Saiga .308 IZ-138. Looks good in wood. Except now, I'm trying to justify the cost of getting a .308 Saiga as opposed to a 7.62. 20 round mags sound plenty to me, but at $45 a pop... hmm. Ammo seems $$$ all around, but .308 is a bit more... 7.62 conversion sounds tempting. Of course, then if I'm going to go through all that trouble, why not a WASR-10? I know the title is worded kind of like .308 vs 7.62, but I'm more thinking: "Why did you guys decide to go with a .308 Saiga over a 7.62, and if you have both(or another AK type), what do you like? And, if you had to choose one, which?

 

Thanks!

[ironhead7544 35]

If you want to hunt, then the 308 is a better choice. The 7.62x39 would be OK for deer sized game out to 100 meters or so with the right ammo. The x39 has lighter recoil and would be better to teach a new person how to shoot. The 308 is, however, very easy on recoil especially if you add a buffer and recoil pad. Its the easyest 308 Ive ever shot. I have both. For a fun gun the x39 is best. Hopefully the price of x39 ammo will come down when the war winds up.

[Buzz 0]

Recoil, that is a good question and one that I recently answered for myself. Having a Saiga in .223 I wanted to add another. I shoot multiple rifles in .223, 7.62x39, and .308 (7.62x51) and either the 7.62x39 or .308 would fit in ammo-wise with what I shoot. Having a .223 I decided to go more to the extreme of .308 as it offered experiencing the Saiga at both ends of the spectrum. Besides, I already have an AK in 7.62x39 and with going with the .308 it offered the AK in an uncommon caliber.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that in choosing this Saiga you may want to consider what you might want the caliber of your second Saiga/AK to be. Now I have a .223 Saiga, 7.62x39 WASR 10, and .308 Saiga, sort of an AK straight flush. The 7.62x39 Saiga really appealed to me as I love the round, but the .308 offered a less repetitive rifle and a significantly different shooting experience from what I had in the .223.

 

Of course, if you hunt (which I don't) the .308 really becomes attractive. Plus, you may want to see which version of the Saiga is most accurate. I know that the .308 version is beefed up to handle the round and may be more accurate, and certainly at greater distances. Barrel length is another variable that you will want to consider.

Edited June 30, 2007 by Buzz

[longhunter-CO 0]

I agree with Ironhead- The .308 will hunt all animals that the 7.62x39mm will and more (to include Elk and Bear). If your focus is hunting, SHTF weapon, plinker (in that order) then the .308 is the way to go. If you are only wanting to hunt Deer sized game and your focus is plinking, SHTF weapon, and then hunting go with the 7.62x39mm. Just my $.02.

[keyser223 0]

I purchased the .308, primarily because I developed an addiction to Saiga's. Seriously, I purchased it because it's a proven caliber in one of the most time proven rifle designs made. The WASR's are good and cheap, but you need to see one before you buy it, gas tube's are often canted (relatively easy fix). If bayonet lugs and hiders aren't all that important to you, then check out the Norinco Mak90's, they are really well built and roughly the same price. The AK's are cheaper to blast ammo through and there are more aftermarket accessories for them, but I do love my .308

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

The 308 has more power. For hunting purposes on a cold bbl (sighted in for the cold bbl) you can expect to take game out beyond 200 yards easily with the 308. It has enough actual energy to put down a deer out to 500+ yards. Since you're not reloading, you should consider that there are many more quality hunting bullets available in the 308 (standard 30 cal) than in the 7.62x39. 20 round mags have only one suppler, and are $50 a pop (downside). I also have a 308 bolt gun that shoots 1/2 moa groups, so that extends practical hunting ranges to what the 308 is good for energy-wise.

 

The 7.62 is a gun that I'd keep inside 150-200 yards due to the energy and trajectory. Other than the range, it's got enough power to put down a deer about as well as the 308. Mags are a lot easier to come by with the 7.62 If you know the trajectory of a 22 like the back of your hand (and many of us overgrown children do) then the 7.62 has about the same trajectory which is good for your Kentucky windage...

 

The point where your decision becomes especially tricky is that the saiga typically shoots groups in the three to four inch range at 100 yards (a bit better - maybe 2 in - if sighted in on a cold bbl). At 200 yards that's a 6 to 8 in group. What this means is that you may not really get to use the extra that the 308 offers.

 

If you knew for a fact that you were keeping within 200 yards and you weren't also going to get a bolt gun later, I'd probably get the 7.62. However, the pacific north west probably has a few mountain and rolling hill types of shot scenarios that would have you wanting more range. In that case, I'll make an unpopular suggestion and suggest you get a good bolt gun first (in 308), then backfill with a saiga 308. This is because even a 1moa gun extends an 8 in diameter kill zone out to 400yards. With some saigas you'd get only 200 to 250 yards with same results.

 

For a bolt gun my suggestions here would be a remington 700, savage 10, or even the new mossberg rifle. If cartridge cross compatability is not important to you but low cost is, consider a good condition used 8mm mauser or swiss k31. The saigas are good guns (I have 4 of them, and love them), but you can do better for hunting with a bolt gun, especially once you're out around 300 yards.

Edited June 30, 2007 by buckandaquarterquarterstaff

[gdk 0]

If u are talking about 7.62 x 51mm NATO verse the .308, then I would go with a .308 for these reasons:

1. Mil. surplus ammo cost about the same as off-the-shelf .308

2. Rifles chambered in 7.62 NATO cannot safely shoot .308 rounds due to the fact that .308 rounds produce over 10,000 psi more than 7.62.

3. Wolf and Bear make excellent .308 rounds and u can still get 500 rds for approx. $180.00

4. You can buy a larger and better assortment of ammo chambered in the .308 vs. the 7.62 NATO

5. And, you can always shoot mil surplus in your .308 and do it safely, unlike the opposite

 

That's my take on the difference between .308 and 7.62 x 51mm NATO. If, u are comparing .308 to 7.62 x .39mm, then it will depend on what u plan on using the rifle for. The AK round is cheaper, but not by much, it lacks the terminal performance that the .308 has and bullet selection is limited. I have a few AK's, they are fun to shoot and effective on hogs. Yes, u can kill a deer with an AK, but its not my first choice for deer hunting. If I was going to buy one rifle, it would be the .308, it has more uses than the AK round.

 

Thats my two cents worth, hope it helps u make a decision.

[layer 0]

7.62 m240b

This is exactly what the S 308 shoots, no? Edited June 30, 2007 by layer

[gdk 0]

Yes, the S-308 can safely shoot mil. surplus 7.62 x 51mm NATO, or .308 cartridges. However, be cautious with mil surplus. I have never had a problem with South African ammo, but some of the Indian, South American and Paki stuff has problems. I personnally only shoot Wolf, Bear or American ammo now. I use to shoot S.A. when it was cheap, but not anymore.

[recoil 0]

Thanks for the info everybody. I think I will go with a .308 for sure. Now of course, is deciding what configuration to go with. I was pretty interested in the wood model with the 21.8" barrel, but I'm also now considering the model with the synthetic skeleton stock and a 16.3" barrel. I would think that a longer barrel would be better for hunting, but I'm now taking into consideration the fact that my rifle experience was mostly on an M4 carbine. And... I have never shot any rifle without a pistol grip to boot. So I'm thinking I might be more accurate with the synthetic skeleton/short barrel. I'm sure I could get into modding later, but right now I'm just interested in doing some shooting. Plus, the hunting season is right around the corner.

 

Also, just like to throw in here that I took my wife out to shoot my Mossberg 500. She was really hesitant at first, but then she got really into it. She's digging the idea of taking a hunter education class and maybe doing some hunting. Also, I might ask a buddy of mine who is moving up here to stop by my mom's house and pick up my Ruger Mini-14 ranch that I've never shot... it was my dad's, but he died awhile back and I didn't take it with me when I joined the military. This might make some of you cry, but my mom GAVE AWAY about 1/2 of my dad's guns immediately after his death. To include a bolt action mauser, a black powder rifle he hand made, a nazi era Luger, some rim fire .22(not sure what), and at least one other rifle. My mother hated guns and wouldn't allow my father to teach me to shoot when I was young. He was into hunting, gunsmithing, handloading, etc.... I need to rummage around the next time I go home and see if I can dig up some tools and whatnot. I figure I could use the Mini-14 for plinking and maybe get used to the full stock.

[ironhead7544 35]

You wont have any problem with the standard stock. I bought the 16 incher as it handles better. You only lose about 100 fps with the shorter barrel. No deer would know the difference.

[Cryptkeeper 0]

The 308 has more power. For hunting purposes on a cold bbl (sighted in for the cold bbl) you can expect to take game out beyond 200 yards easily with the 308. It has enough actual energy to put down a deer out to 500+ yards. Since you're not reloading, you should consider that there are many more quality hunting bullets available in the 308 (standard 30 cal) than in the 7.62x39. 20 round mags have only one suppler, and are $50 a pop (downside). I also have a 308 bolt gun that shoots 1/2 moa groups, so that extends practical hunting ranges to what the 308 is good for energy-wise.

 

The 7.62 is a gun that I'd keep inside 150-200 yards due to the energy and trajectory. Other than the range, it's got enough power to put down a deer about as well as the 308. Mags are a lot easier to come by with the 7.62 If you know the trajectory of a 22 like the back of your hand (and many of us overgrown children do) then the 7.62 has about the same trajectory which is good for your Kentucky windage...

 

The point where your decision becomes especially tricky is that the saiga typically shoots groups in the three to four inch range at 100 yards (a bit better - maybe 2 in - if sighted in on a cold bbl). At 200 yards that's a 6 to 8 in group. What this means is that you may not really get to use the extra that the 308 offers.

 

If you knew for a fact that you were keeping within 200 yards and you weren't also going to get a bolt gun later, I'd probably get the 7.62. However, the pacific north west probably has a few mountain and rolling hill types of shot scenarios that would have you wanting more range. In that case, I'll make an unpopular suggestion and suggest you get a good bolt gun first (in 308), then backfill with a saiga 308. This is because even a 1moa gun extends an 8 in diameter kill zone out to 400yards. With some saigas you'd get only 200 to 250 yards with same results.

 

For a bolt gun my suggestions here would be a remington 700, savage 10, or even the new mossberg rifle. If cartridge cross compatability is not important to you but low cost is, consider a good condition used 8mm mauser or swiss k31. The saigas are good guns (I have 4 of them, and love them), but you can do better for hunting with a bolt gun, especially once you're out around 300 yards.

 

 

i dont know about you but alot of ppl are getting 1in grps at 100yrds, might be the ammo, if your going to hunt with it, range is only a factor if your terrain allows you to have a long range shot, around my neck of the woods 300yrd would be an extremly long/rare shot, if your in heavy woods 100yrds or less is all you'll get even if im on a hill top then all i see is tree tops, i choose the 308 cause the greater knock down power and eventhough i got a 308 bolt action i wanted a semi 308 for the reduced recoil which the saiga really does have just a little more recoil than my nhm-91 but its not all that much you can easily shoot 100's of rnds in a day. and how often do u see an ak in a 308 config.. bear in mind these weapons (AK) arnt made for supper accuracy if you got to hammer in that nail at 1000 yrd get a bolt action i got a rem 700 (308).in my area ill either use a shotgun or my saiga 308 , my saiga meets the need with good reliablty ,reasonable accuracy, and great knock down power for that unlucky bear. and the best selling point for me its a CHEAP rifle ,that hasnt been slaped togather by a 3rd party with cheap parts to meet the 10 part rule like the alot of the new aks bought today are . i dont need 30 20rnd mags im not going to war and alot of states u can only have 5 rnds in weapon while hunting,although 2-3 20rnd mags would be great for the range.the ammo anymore isnt cheap specially compared to the 7.62, but for the range fun that what my nhm-91 is for

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

I would love a 1 in group, but on a cold bbl I'm getting more in the 2 in range with careful handloads. I own 3 s308's and my best is a 1.5 in group with worked over triggers and 165 bullets. Given I own three of them, and I get 2 in groups, I'd call it a 2 in gun (at best on a cold bbl). Not bad by most standards, but not great either. I have yet to see posted 1 in group targets, if you have them I'd love to know the secret. Most posted targets are in the 3moa range. I get touching holes with my 300 wby sako (once I stop flinching) and 1/2 in groups with my savage 10, so I think it's not me.

 

When he said pacific northwest my image went to the desert part of washington state. In the rainforest, I guess you could get by with a 7.62x39. The Philippine sniper rifle is a 223 (go figure)

[Hunter78 1]

First, congrats on having a wife that wants to get into shooting. That will solve some future problems when you start to get adicted. Shooting will bring you closer together. Encourage her and be patient.

 

Now the ak platform is not a tackdriver, but it does what it was designed to do. You don't have to have a ton of mags either. It is nice at times, but in reality, 2 twenty rounders will get you going fine. I would say if you are more inclined to use it for plinking go with the 7.62x39. If you are planing to hunt I would say a 308, I would go with a 16" version for hunting. they are a bit front heavy and the 16inch version balences better for me, plus if you are hunting in the brush driving deer the compact design is nicer. The downside of the saiga platform is that you will end up wanting both anyway. I have 2 in 7.62x39 (one is for sale though), 308, 410 and 12gauge.

the recoil is less in 7.62x39, but the 308 is not that bad and I think your wife could probably still handle it fine. Anyway, have fun with them shooting is half the fun converting them is the other.

[recoil 0]

As a matter of fact, I do live in the 'dry' part of Washington state. Right off the Columbia river. There are wooded areas, and I'm only about an hour from when the trees start getting thick(Cascades), but compared to wear I grew up (southeast usa), this place looks like a desert to me. Terrain varies a lot... some of it looks like California desert, some of it is pure thick brush. Depends on where you go. One thing I know for sure is that we have a crapload of deer... I used to drive up and down the Columbia to go to work and I can't count the number of times I've had to swerve to avoid hitting a PACK of mule deers, while thinking "I wish somebody would shoot all these damn deer." lol.

 

 

As far as low cost bolts, the thing I'm noticing is the cartridges aren't so low cost. More than .308 even it seems. Local gun shop has some 7mm Mausers for $150 or so... Mosin Nagant m44's, and some k31's around the same. Most of them don't seem like it'd be easy mounting a scope... I know these rifles were designed with accuracy back in their day, but should I be expecting to shoot accurately at more than 300 meters on iron sights? I was a decent shot with an M4 at 300 meters, and could even shoot perfect on the range in upright... But I guess coming from that... never tried shooting past 300 meters really, and never shot with a scope before.

 

Ok, I'm going on a tangent. I'll probably have to pick one rifle for now. Wife is ok with it as long as the bills are paid, but not ok with me going on a spending spree. $380 + $90(2x20 round) + ammo + broke + another rifle = !!!???!?

Edited July 4, 2007 by recoil

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

As a matter of fact, I do live in the 'dry' part of Washington state. Right off the Columbia river. There are wooded areas, and I'm only about an hour from when the trees start getting thick(Cascades), but compared to wear I grew up (southeast usa), this place looks like a desert to me. Terrain varies a lot... some of it looks like California desert, some of it is pure thick brush. Depends on where you go. One thing I know for sure is that we have a crapload of deer... I used to drive up and down the Columbia to go to work and I can't count the number of times I've had to swerve to avoid hitting a PACK of mule deers, while thinking "I wish somebody would shoot all these damn deer." lol.

 

 

As far as low cost bolts, the thing I'm noticing is the cartridges aren't so low cost. More than .308 even it seems. Local gun shop has some 7mm Mausers for $150 or so... Mosin Nagant m44's, and some k31's around the same. Most of them don't seem like it'd be easy mounting a scope... I know these rifles were designed with accuracy back in their day, but should I be expecting to shoot accurately at more than 300 meters on iron sights? I was a decent shot with an M4 at 300 meters, and could even shoot perfect on the range in upright... But I guess coming from that... never tried shooting past 300 meters really, and never shot with a scope before.

 

Ok, I'm going on a tangent. I'll probably have to pick one rifle for now. Wife is ok with it as long as the bills are paid, but not ok with me going on a spending spree. $380 + $90(2x20 round) + ammo + broke + another rifle = !!!???!?

 

I don't think you'll be unhappy with an S308, but maybe you'll wind up doing the opposite of what I first thought. That is, you'll start with the S308, then backfill with a 308 bolt gun that you happen across at a gun show or even some other type of pure tackdriver like an NEF heavy bbl 308.

 

Anyhow, the only thing that you are forgetting in your analysis is that adding the 20 rounders probably qualifies the combination of gun and mags as non sporting, and then it would need to have 10 or fewer imported parts under 922r.

 

Don't forget a 4x POSP scope. So you've got $350 for the gun, $x for shipping and transfer fees, $110 for a pair of FBMG mags, and $110 for delivered POSP scope. Just add ammo ($50 for sight in and enough to hunt with) and you're good to go for around $600 (as in ask the wife now that you've got real numbers in your head). To limit the damage, you can just get the gun with stock mag at first and see how good you are with the iron sights.

 

You might want to check out the k31 more carefully. If you're already good with irons to 300 yards, then you have a sub $200 gun that you can use for hunting with no additional mods. They have nice triggers and decent sights (for military issue). Good aftermarket k31 peeps are available.

[recoil 0]

I may end up going with a couple 8 round mags... I was reading in a few places that they can be modified to accept 2 more rounds? I was thinking that maybe the length of the 20 round mags might make shooting from prone a bit more difficult...

 

I'll check out the K31. It'd be good to have something I could shoot now... maybe get started on manual reloading with it too with one of those cheap Lee kits.

[kresk 10,063]

I'll check out the K31. It'd be good to have something I could shoot now... maybe get started on manual reloading with it too with one of those cheap Lee kits.

 

Agree with checking out the K31. They are incredibly built and were the most accurate standard military issue bolt rifles ever made. The triggers are very crisp and there is some good brass available if you'd like to try reloading.

[recoil 0]

Agree with checking out the K31. They are incredibly built and were the most accurate standard military issue bolt rifles ever made. The triggers are very crisp and there is some good brass available if you'd like to try reloading.

 

I was reading they could take .308 win as well? Right out of the box? Or with a proper reload?

[texlurch 0]

Agree with checking out the K31. They are incredibly built and were the most accurate standard military issue bolt rifles ever made. The triggers are very crisp and there is some good brass available if you'd like to try reloading.

 

I was reading they could take .308 win as well? Right out of the box? Or with a proper reload?

 

Sweetest trigger evah!

 

DO NOT try to shoot 308 in a K31, it will go ka-boom! 308 bullets in reloaded 7.5 x 55 case is ok.

 

There are some 1911 and K31's out there that were converted to 308 and sporterized (I have a 1911, good shooter), but the standard K31 definately does not shoot 308 WIN ammo.

Edited July 4, 2007 by texlurch

[Hunter78 1]

Agree with checking out the K31. They are incredibly built and were the most accurate standard military issue bolt rifles ever made. The triggers are very crisp and there is some good brass available if you'd like to try reloading.

Not to bash the k31 too badly, but I don't think they were the most accurate bolt actions nor do I think they are necessarily a great choice unless your really into c&r rifles. They are generally accurate, and have good triggers, but finding ammo could be a problem if you don't want to reload. Personally I'd put my M1917 Remington against a k31 anyday as far as accuracy. One good point about the k31 is that they didn't use corrosive ammo so bores are better then average. Plus they are an intresting gun and well made.

[kresk 10,063]

Not to bash the k31 too badly, but I don't think they were the most accurate bolt actions nor do I think they are necessarily a great choice unless your really into c&r rifles.

 

Guess we'll agree to diasgree on that. For their time they were reportedly quite excellent.

[Cryptkeeper 0]

ive never been to wash. state i had always pictured it as being heavy old forrest growth, never knew there was dessert like areas there, if you get a bolt action i would get a decent scope (dont get a cheap one).at least a 40mm. a decent low priced scopes will run you around 100-300 dependng on the brand. i would not even think of trying to shoot a deer at 300m with iron sights cause more than not all your going to do is wound it and it will run for miles before it dies(like 2-5 miles if not more) or worse it could take days for it to die, this isnt the army where wounding it is ok you need to kill it. i wouldnt feel safe to shoot 1 over 100m with iron sight remmber you are trying to hit the heart thats not a very big area specially at 100m with iron sights. also if it doent have sightrail/scope screw hole already taped you may have to have a sight rail installed. id watch the newspaper in your area or ask ppl at work if they know if some1 is selling any rifles some times you can run onto a really good deal some1 will sell you a rifle for what they paid for it 10yrs ago not counting all the addons they put on it and all its done is set in the closet, or look in the paper for estate auctions sometimes u can see them selling 1 or 2 guns in the auction u might beable to get at a good price but u need to know what they go for some times ppl get crazy and bid WAY to high.or a police auction is a good place to go ive seen ppl get good deals there. I just had a friend about a month ago buy a rem 700 with ALOT of addons it was tricked out for 1k and the guy had 3k into the gun but he need the cash real bad real fast. man i wish i had 1k or i would have gotten it.

Edited July 5, 2007 by Cryptkeeper

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

Not to bash the k31 too badly, but I don't think they were the most accurate bolt actions nor do I think they are necessarily a great choice unless your really into c&r rifles.

 

Guess we'll agree to diasgree on that. For their time they were reportedly quite excellent.

 

Even my Nagant does well with a Huber replacement trigger (incorporates small ball bearings to smooth it out). I get sub 2 inch groups with this trigger. It's a night and day improvement for anyone that shoots a surplus gun. A quick install too. You may just smile when you shoot your old bolt gun. I've shot a few k31's and they are quite nice and very accurate. About the only better surplus shooters are certain husky's, and a sako nagants (if you can find one - IMO - ). All of those are general statements, as you get definate losers in the pool of guns when they are over 50 years old. Paying 10 bucks for a hand select is money well spent.

 

A supported group of 5 shots into a 10 inch circle at 200 yards with irons is pretty much par for the course for even the most standard army surplus guns, given decent ammo and familiarity. Is it good enough for deer? Maybe, maybe not. It depends on how open it is, and if you mind it running a couple hundred yards before it drops. In the woods a 200 yard shot isn't too likely anyway. I've taken 150 yard shots with my CVA muzzleloader and think it's a mind over matter thing for sure. I've missed at 70 yards with my sako, and hit at much longer ranges with much more average guns.

[recoil 0]

i would not even think of trying to shoot a deer at 300m with iron sights cause more than not all your going to do is wound it and it will run for miles before it dies(like 2-5 miles if not more) or worse it could take days for it to die, this isnt the army where wounding it is ok you need to kill it.

 

Thanks for the advice but I do take some issue with this statement... in that I was taught in the Army to never wound. 'One shot, one kill' as they say. I know the target(deer) isn't very large, but neither were the targets we trained on. They were human size targets, but only mid torso and up. 300 meters would be pushing it of course(I agree hunting at that range wouldn't be realistic), but I know if I properly zero and know my weapon, I can hit a target that size within that range. That was with 5.56mm... I'm sure I wouldn't have to compensate nearly as much with a .308... I'd expect it to have a 'straighter' arc within those ranges.

 

Well, anyway... I'm currently looking at .308 bolts, so we will see.

[Cryptkeeper 0]

i would not even think of trying to shoot a deer at 300m with iron sights cause more than not all your going to do is wound it and it will run for miles before it dies(like 2-5 miles if not more) or worse it could take days for it to die, this isnt the army where wounding it is ok you need to kill it.

 

Thanks for the advice but I do take some issue with this statement... in that I was taught in the Army to never wound. 'One shot, one kill' as they say. I know the target(deer) isn't very large, but neither were the targets we trained on. They were human size targets, but only mid torso and up. 300 meters would be pushing it of course(I agree hunting at that range wouldn't be realistic), but I know if I properly zero and know my weapon, I can hit a target that size within that range. That was with 5.56mm... I'm sure I wouldn't have to compensate nearly as much with a .308... I'd expect it to have a 'straighter' arc within those ranges.

 

Well, anyway... I'm currently looking at .308 bolts, so we will see.

 

that is an old sniper saying, and dont snipers usually use scopes,your not the only vet. here in the forums,and most of us know what the basic military theories are,remmber you never saw where on the man size target you hit at 300yrds you might have been hitting his belly while trying to hit his head/heart yes you could hit it you might get lucky and hit a vital area but it can run for miles before it bleeds todeath.i hope you have an ATV your going to need it.i really find it hard to believe some1 useing iron sights can have a killing shot grp of 2-3 inch at 300yrds(with a scope no problem) being that iron sight are bigger than your target(i would have to see it) and yes i was/am an expert marksmen.take a 3inch skeet out 300yrd see if you can hit it in 1 shot useing iron sights if you can even see it.also with the cost of ammo now days you could buy a decent low priced scope for the price that it will cost you to get to know your weapon.5-6 boxes at 25-30 per can pay for a 100-150 scope, yes you can get cheaper ammo but being the expert that you are you will know that you must exp. with differnt kinds of ammo to find the right ammo that your weapon likes that is if you want the best perfomance out of your weapon but hey you do have 2-3 inch to play with who needs performance when your shooting only 300yrds right.and how many hours out of the days/weeks/months is your wife going to let you go out to the range, might want to pitch a tent it might take a while, but hey it will be you that is tracking that deer for 5++ miles not me unless you give up after 100yrds and waste a deer.

 

sorry guys for the rant (i am holding back) just hate to see ppl wound an animal and it run off and die hours/days later or make it suffer needlessly. if your going to hunt do it right, kill it and be done with it ,one shot one kill .

Edited July 6, 2007 by Cryptkeeper

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

I'd love to see everyone take animals cleanly and efficiently out to 300 yards. It's far more humane, but nature (or humankind for that matter) isn't always so. The 2 inch group I was referring to was a 100 yard group, on a good day, with little wind. That at 300 is fantasy for a non scoped gun (for me anyway)

 

Fact is, clean shots all the time are not reality. Anyone who bow hunts (or even muzzle loads) knows that tracking is all part of the process. Rarely do bow hunters hit the mythical 3 in circle at their unknown ranges, from stands, etc. To hit only the sure thing, is to pass on meat making shots. That's a personal decision, I know, but my freezer has been filled with marginal shot venison now and then. I've tracked out to 1/4 mile, and unless you know how to do it, don't shoot it. Don't believe me, then spend some time at your local butcher shop around deer season, and see how many clean hits come in vs marginal ones. It's really about 70/30 (and 30% accounts for a lot of deer).

 

Whatever you choose, good luck to you.

[loki0629 55]

I agree with Cryptkeeper. I can pull off head shots from 500 yards using the iron sights on the M16. Before the Marine Corps went back to the "old" way of scoring the KD range you could have earned expert by the time you went back to the 500 yard line. So basically, you had 10 rounds and 10 minutes to screw around with. So just for shits and giggles I would go for head shots with my remaining rounds and probably get about 3 to 4 in the brain housing group and drop the other rounds onto the neck or upper torso.

 

That being said... I WOULD NEVER take a shot at a deer from that distance. Deer would never stand still long enough for me to get into a nice stable prone position, get proper sight alignment, sight picture, breath control, sloowwly squeezing the trigger until the hammer falls without the shooter's knowledge. And I haven't even talked about getting the loop sling on right so that your pulse doesn't interfere with your sight picture. Basically, don't confuse marksmanship training with real world shooting. If you've shot that pop-up target course on the Army ranges that's slightly more realistic.

 

Anyway, if you hunt you have an obligation to make as clean a kill as quickly as possible. Targets don't bleed, they don't jump out of the frame and run off so that you have to track them down to mark your score, and they certainly don't suffer more if you don't get your rounds in the black.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Oh and I also bought the .308 with the 16" barrel and skeleton stock. Get it. You'll like it. But save some money for ammo or invest in reloading tools.

[DaGroaner 2]

The answer is obvious. Buy an S-12. It is the best all around weapon. For SHTF, self-defense, offense and hunting as it will take any game an x39 will plus you can take birds with it all day long. Ammo choices from #9 birdshot to buckshot to slugs to flechettes to flares and dragon's breath. Get your rifle later.

[recoil 0]

If you've shot that pop-up target course on the Army ranges that's slightly more realistic.

 

Not to brag and go on with it, but that's all I've shot on actually as far as marksmanship training(also did shoot houses and various live fire exercises) The only time I've never shot expert or perfect for that matter was in Basic in which we had some really awful M16's that jammed on every 3 or 4 rounds. I've also helped run a range several times and every time a platoon or even a company(usually National Guard) wouldn't show up and we'd have a lot of ammo to burn(turning it back in was a pita). Had a few days where I shot over 600 rounds with my M4(only a few jams, while on burst mostly). 300 meter targets, upright, no problem. Headshots at up to 200 meters no problem. But crypt is right in that I had no idea where on the target I was hitting at 300 meters. Time will tell, but I've got a feeling I'll be ok on iron sights up to 250 meters. I'll make sure I can shoot before I go hunt.

Edited July 6, 2007 by recoil