Which is better, a HK91 clone or Saiga .308?

[Montana3gunner 13]

Let the debate begin...(might not be much of a debate on this forum). Which is better, an hk91 clone like the Federal Arms FA91 or a Saiga .308? Why?

 

I'm just wrapping up my Saiga .308 conversion, just need to get the brake installed and paint.

[kresk 10,063]

I like my shortie, just becuz.

 

[BobAsh 582]

Wow, odd question. Totally different guns.

[Buzz 0]

It all depends on what you are looking for. If you want a gun to shoot right out of the box, go with the Saiga. With the HK clones, many if not most of them require considerably more attention with regard to issues like bolt gap. Also, in choosing and evaluating the "HK clone" homework needs to be done to minimize the possibility that you will have bought yourself a project gun. There are definitely guns to avoid and others that are just fine, some depending on the period of their manufacture

 

To get an idea of what you might be getting into with HK clones I'd recommend a visit to the HK Clone Talk section at the HK Forum http://hkpro.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=38 and for the most in depth treatment of the rifles go to the Cetme/HK section at militaryfirearms.com http://www.militaryfirearm.com/Forum/forumdisplay.php?f=23

 

One other distinction is that with an HK clone your time, money and efforts might be spent on just getting the rifle to shoot right. With the Saiga any further expenditure will be on projects like conversions and aftermarket parts.

 

BTW, for the record, the HK is a clone. The original rifle was the Spanish Cetme which was designed in the 50's by a German, a former designer for Mauser. HK was then licensed to build the Cetme which, with improvements, became the G3 and HK91 (some of the first G3's were Cetmes). They are all clones of the Cetme. HK took over once small arms production could begin again in Germany. To me the Spanish manufacturer of the Cetme has always seemed like sort of a front for the Germans (who designed the Cetme) who were unable to produce small arms after the war. It's never really been clear to me how much of the rifle was actually designed by anyone other than Germans. In the end, that HK gets credit for the rifle, is somewhat justified.

Edited July 18, 2007 by Buzz

[Cryptkeeper 0]

It all depends on what you are looking for. If you want a gun to shoot right out of the box, go with the Saiga. With the HK clones, many if not most of them require considerably more attention with regard to issues like bolt gap. Also, in choosing and evaluating the "HK clone" homework needs to be done to minimize the possibility that you will have bought yourself a project gun. There are definitely guns to avoid and others that are just fine, some depending on the period of their manufacture

 

To get an idea of what you might be getting into with HK clones I'd recommend a visit to the HK Clone Talk section at the HK Forum http://hkpro.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=38 and for the most in depth treatment of the rifles go to the Cetme/HK section at militaryfirearms.com http://www.militaryfirearm.com/Forum/forumdisplay.php?f=23

 

One other distinction is that with an HK clone your time, money and efforts might be spent on just getting the rifle to shoot right. With the Saiga any further expenditure will be on projects like conversions and aftermarket parts.

 

BTW, for the record, the HK is a clone. The original rifle was the Spanish Cetme which was designed in the 50's by a German, a former designer for Mauser. HK was then licensed to build the Cetme which, with improvements, became the G3 and HK91 (some of the first G3's were Cetmes). They are all clones of the Cetme. HK took over once small arms production could begin again in Germany. To me the Spanish manufacturer of the Cetme has always seemed like sort of a front for the Germans (who designed the Cetme) who were unable to produce small arms after the war. It's never really been clear to me how much of the rifle was actually designed by anyone other than Germans. In the end, that HK gets credit for the rifle, is somewhat justified.

 

 

Very interesting history lesson i didnt know that about HK and i really love the look of the HK91 just cant afford that type of weapon the cost of ammo alone is about to make me go broke

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

Let the debate begin...(might not be much of a debate on this forum). Which is better, an hk91 clone like the Federal Arms FA91 or a Saiga .308? Why?

 

I'm just wrapping up my Saiga .308 conversion, just need to get the brake installed and paint.

 

If you reload the HK is murder on brass. The saiga dents the hell out of the case, but you can fix that with a valmet buffer mounted to you dust cover. HK has a lot more recoil, HK is heavier, both are about the same in reliability, but the saiga receiver is more flexy. Saiga costs much less. HK has parts kits available. HK mags are much much less (so much so that if you need 10 mags it might tip the balance toward the HK clone).

 

As long as you're tossing around those two, how about a FAL (easy on brass, cheap mags, equal accuracy, very reliable, but hard to find a good one)? Or a DPMS 308?

 

I think if you just want a basic 308 autoloader and don't want to go full rambo with it, the saiga can't be beat. If you're going to spend another couple hundered on a conversion and need a dozen mags, I'd not recommend it. However, if you want to get the gun first and do the rest of the conversion/mags as cost permits, then it's a decent option with it's low entry fee.

[johnnyapple 0]

Here's a thread from THR that covers the same question:

 

"Saiga .308 vs. PTR-91" - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=204690

 

The PTR-91 is an HK 91 clone, and probably the best of the bunch (from what I hear - I don't own one). A few of the posts on that thread are pretty rough on the S308, but it's apples and oranges - it depends on what you're looking for.

[texlurch 0]

HK has a lot more recoil, HK is heavier,

 

HUH?

 

I haven't weighed my G3 or my CETME's to compare to the Saigas, but there is no way the Saiga has less felt recoil, unless you have a healthy compensator. My G3 kicks the same or less than any of the x39 AKs I have. And that is with a solid collapsible stock, with no pad. My 16" Saiga 308 with a 1" pad on the ACE stock and a AK74 style compensator is close, but still a little more recoil than the G3, with the same ammo out of the same box.

 

Now, a PTR with a 18" heavy barrel, yeah, but not an "original" style HK or CETME.

[Buzz 0]

Very interesting history lesson I didnt know that about HK and i really love the look of the HK91 just cant afford that type of weapon the cost of ammo alone is about to make me go broke

 

The good news is that there is no need to own an HK. Yes, they are nice. I've had a 93, 94, an an SP89. At between $2500 and ten grand now for those guns (I paid between $500 and $795 for them back in the late Eighties) few can afford them. But, the PTR91 is a great gun and in some aspects superior to the HK. But, in the past year or so the prices on PTRs has gone up. I paid just over a grand for my PTR91 KF which is still a lot of money, to me at least. The problem is that the less expensive options bear greater risk. Luckily the parts and knowledge are available to make these guns fine shooters.

 

BTW, I wasn't trying to be a know-it-all with the Cetme/HK history lesson. It just fascinates me. Back when I shot HK rifles and carbines extensively I had no idea about where the design came from or the history of the rifle, one of the best and most prolific battle rifles in history. I knew nothing about head gap or anything other than fill the mag and fire. Since then the Internet has opened up a whole world for shooters. HK dealers were few and far in between and could charge pretty much what they wanted because resources were so scarce.

 

BTW, to get an idea of how widely used these guns are, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfT9gP_V00Q&NR=1 That video has really changed how I look at the rifle.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Buzz

[Hunter78 1]

Besides the Saiga can the others safely shoot 308 winchester or just the Nato stuff. A friend of mine has the PTR and says he only shoots the nato ammo.

 

If they can't, the saiga would have a big advantage over the others in terms of ammo availabilty. The nato loadings can be found online and gun shows but you can get 308 winchester at wally world anytime, plus better loads for hunting since fmj is illegal to hunt with here in WI.

[texlurch 0]

Besides the Saiga can the others safely shoot 308 winchester or just the Nato stuff. A friend of mine has the PTR and says he only shoots the nato ammo.

 

If they can't, the saiga would have a big advantage over the others in terms of ammo availabilty. The nato loadings can be found online and gun shows but you can get 308 winchester at wally world anytime, plus better loads for hunting since fmj is illegal to hunt with here in WI.

 

Not so much the loads as the mil-spec brass. The thinner commercial brass tends to swell and flow into the flutes which sticks the case in the chamber and rips the base off.

 

On that note the Saiga will eat pretty much anything.

[Montana3gunner 13]

Besides the Saiga can the others safely shoot 308 winchester or just the Nato stuff. A friend of mine has the PTR and says he only shoots the nato ammo.

 

If they can't, the saiga would have a big advantage over the others in terms of ammo availabilty. The nato loadings can be found online and gun shows but you can get 308 winchester at wally world anytime, plus better loads for hunting since fmj is illegal to hunt with here in WI.

 

Not so much the loads as the mil-spec brass. The thinner commercial brass tends to swell and flow into the flutes which sticks the case in the chamber and rips the base off.

 

On that note the Saiga will eat pretty much anything.

 

This is all great info! I confess the reason I posted the question was to learn more about the HKs and specifically how they compare to Saigas. Buzz - thanks for the history!

 

Seems like unless you buy a CETME, the other options run $750 and up.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Montana3gunner

[Montana3gunner 13]

Besides the Saiga can the others safely shoot 308 winchester or just the Nato stuff. A friend of mine has the PTR and says he only shoots the nato ammo.

 

If they can't, the saiga would have a big advantage over the others in terms of ammo availabilty. The nato loadings can be found online and gun shows but you can get 308 winchester at wally world anytime, plus better loads for hunting since fmj is illegal to hunt with here in WI.

 

Not so much the loads as the mil-spec brass. The thinner commercial brass tends to swell and flow into the flutes which sticks the case in the chamber and rips the base off.

 

On that note the Saiga will eat pretty much anything.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Montana3gunner

[brian33x51 1]

I have to agree with an earlier poster.

They are very very different rifles.

 

I have an early PTR-91. It's pretty and I dressed it up with a bushnell fixed 10x40 scope and olive furniture with a handguard with heat shield that will take a bipod.

The rifle feels like quality, fires like quality, very accurate, but a pain to clean.

 

I bought a 16" saiga and did the pistol grip conversion. I left on the original fore stock, I like it's feel better than some other after market fore stock.

This rifle is functional and fires well. It's a fun rifle and abusing it doesn't bother me.

 

I also have a cetme and really those are hit or miss with quality. For me it's only a shooter which heats up really fast. I wouldn't mind dumping it.

 

I'll keep both in my arsenal.

Edited July 23, 2007 by brian33x51

[Tigerclaw_x 1]

I have had the same question, and I have solved it. I have shot Saiga 308, and while it is an OK rifle for $400, you can do better.

Much better. I have purchased a C-91. For $450. It is a Century Arms version of HK91. All parts are German Made, except the receiver, which is US made. It is stamped steel. (not aluminum like FA91). No Bolt Gap problem, I get 2.0MOA with open sights using Silver Bear Ammo.

I do not have to pay $50 for each mag. Spare parts are plentiful and available. Besides, it just LOOKS evil:-). I have fired also NATO surplus and 308 hunting (WWB). I have replaced the cheap-o plastic furniture with wooden one from CETME. Thinking about installing a telescopic stock too:-)

I would have NO problem purchasing Saiga, in fact I am waiting until Saiga M in 223 comes to USA. However, 1.0mm receiver is NOT what you want when you use 308 ammo. If you can find a good CETME or C-91 for about $500 bucks - buy it. It is worth it. Much better then Saiga 308.

That being said, I would reccomend until Saiga 308-21 comes into USA. I have a strong suspision that it is in fact a SAIGA-M, built on heavy receiver (like old Vepr). It might be worthwhile to check it out.

[netpackrat 566]

I have had the same question, and I have solved it. I have shot Saiga 308, and while it is an OK rifle for $400, you can do better.

Much better. I have purchased a C-91. For $450. It is a Century Arms version of HK91. All parts are German Made, except the receiver, which is US made. It is stamped steel. (not aluminum like FA91). No Bolt Gap problem, I get 2.0MOA with open sights using Silver Bear Ammo.

 

Good for you, sounds like you got one of the good ones. With the possible exception of their AKs, Century rifles are known for being a bit of a crapshoot. You might get a decent rifle, as you did, or a complete dog, suitable for little other than parts. Nice thing about the Saiga, is you are buying something that is pretty much a known quantity; one is as good as the next. I'm not much of a gambler, so if I am going to spend $450 on a rifle (which is about what I will have into my Saiga after conversion), I would rather buy one that I know is going to work. All of the $2 mags in the world are no consolation if your rifle doesn't work. Better to spend the money on a PTR-91 if you want to take advantage of the cheap G3 mags.

 

However, 1.0mm receiver is NOT what you want when you use 308 ammo.

 

The Saiga's 1.0mm receiver is perfectly good for .308, because the sheet metal portion of the receiver has nothing to do with the lockup of the action. If you can cite an example where a .308 Saiga's receiver did not hold up when used with good quality commercial .308 ammo, I think lots of people on this forum would be interested in reading about it.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

HK has a lot more recoil, HK is heavier,

 

HUH?

 

I haven't weighed my G3 or my CETME's to compare to the Saigas, but there is no way the Saiga has less felt recoil, unless you have a healthy compensator. My G3 kicks the same or less than any of the x39 AKs I have. And that is with a solid collapsible stock, with no pad. My 16" Saiga 308 with a 1" pad on the ACE stock and a AK74 style compensator is close, but still a little more recoil than the G3, with the same ammo out of the same box.

 

Now, a PTR with a 18" heavy barrel, yeah, but not an "original" style HK or CETME.

 

My point of refernce was a built up HK with the original number of flutes and a shorter than std HK bbl (BOOM... Thank you Sir, may I have another...)

 

The JLD version is an easier shooter due to fewer flutes and usually also a rubber butt pad. My Saigas all have recoil buffers, so maybe my opinion isn't a direct reference to a stock HK91 (or JLD PTR) vs a stock saiga. If the prices were the same I'd take an HK clone due to spare parts and mag availability, but priced as they are the Saiga wins my $'s.