New S12 Problems

[FALaholic 0]

I purchased a new 22" S12 from a fellow member sometime ago. I cut it down to the legal 18" and added one of Dinzag's '74 brakes (thanks again Brian).

 

I tore the weapon down and added the fourth gas hole per Cobra's instructions. I was only able to get the shotgun to cycle with Winchester 00 buckshot and the 100pk Federal birdshot. There was no difference when trying a 1911 spring in place of the stock spring as suggested in another post. The bad news is that I have around 300 shells of Fiochi LE Nickel Plated Reduced Recoil Buck that refuses to cycle. It does the same thing that the infamous Winchester cheapo shells did.....yeah I had to try some just for kicks. I was getting stovepipes and "empty case rechambers" with the Fiochi, Winchester, and Remington Gun Club.

 

Should I consider opening up the ports even further, or just stick with the known entities? Also has anyone had the ACE folding mechanism colapse while firing? Stiffer spring neede perhaps?

Edited February 28, 2008 by FALaholic

[Eric Pate 478]

Nice lookin gun! Sorry to hear of your trouble. Is it only the reduced recoil rounds that refuse to cycle? If so, I would suspect they have an insufficient load-weight/powder-charge to properly cycle the action.

 

Maybe you could sacrifice a spring by cutting off a coil at a time until it works. Then that one can be the "reduced recoil" spring. Anyone else try something like this?

 

What if you were to try these rounds on setting #2? I guess you're not having this problem with birdshot?

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Sorry to hear you are still having trouble with that one. After you have done it before, it's like nothing to knock the gas block back off and enlarge the ports some more. I did one just last weekend in about an hour.

First thing I would try, just like distal radius said, is get an extra spring to trim coils off of til it starts working better. Trust me he knows what he's talking about

If that doesn't work then open it up some more. Some also say they helped theirs get broken in by storing them with the bolt held back.

[skiboatsp 111]

Have you polished the bolt surfaces, bottom of the bolt carrier and the top of hammer surface where the carrier contacts?

 

Check the hammer and make sure it has the same contour as the saiga hammer.

 

Also recontoured the feed ramp?

 

I like to keep the gas ports as small as possible the reduce fouling.

 

My next few shorties I'm starting with .010 - .015" under stock .073 - .076 hole Dia. 4 hole barrel

Edited February 29, 2008 by skiboatsp

[FALaholic 0]

double tap

Edited February 29, 2008 by FALaholic

[FALaholic 0]

Thanks for the compliments guys. Yes it is eye candy....now if I can get it to perform as well as it looks!

 

I had the same results with the gas setting on '1' and '2'. Thats right DR....the Federal birdshot ran the best, but I noticed that it was 3 Dram vs. the Winchester whatever it is. I would get failures if I hip shot with any load Federal or otherwise. It is much like the same problem known as "limp wristing" when shooting handguns.....jammed every time. THis kinda negates the use of my folding stock...sucks cause the tang is gone now, so no going back to a fixed stock.

 

That said I think you are right regarding the insufficient charge to cycle the weapon. It was in fact just the reduced recoil Fiochi and Remington 00 buck as welll as the Winchester valu pack crap that I had problems with.

 

Im going to try the lower powered reoil spring, and polish the rails like suggested, and see where that gets me.

[Bvamp 604]

how much "wiggle" is there if you hold JUST the stripped bolt and move it back and forth, in relation to the gas piston? (if you shake it, does the piston move MORE in relation to the bolt carrier assy?)

 

piston slop might be part of your problem....

 

I have extremely heavy wear on my s12, and that was an issue I dealt with, among others.

Edited February 29, 2008 by Bvamp

[stiletto raggio 20]

I would send it to Alliance for one of their special reliability tunings. Totally.

[Vultite 57]

I would send it to Alliance for one of their special reliability tunings. Totally.

 

OMG, do **NOT** do that, your gun should be fine, i suspect low recoil rounds are at fault but if your having trouble with other rounds i dunno, springs would be a good place to start, and polishing is a good idea 2, hows your luck with cheap russian stuff?, nice gun btw, if you want to reduce recoil, there are a few tips other members here have posted.....

Edited February 29, 2008 by Vultite

[HEADHUNTER 0]

That quad rail looks killer, I've not given buying one much thought till now. Thanks a lot!

[FALaholic 0]

Yes I saww your earlier posts Bvamp (been using the search function ) and there is absolutly no wiggle whatsover....might as well be one peice. I have seen ak rifles with quite a lot of play.

 

At any rate the quad rail is great, but its a cast iron bitch to clean as there are two allen head screws that need to come to get it off. No easy access to the inards i.e. the dust cover will not come off without removing the the quad rail first. Good idea. Bad execution. Here are some pics of Dinzag's Brake...pics are crappy I know. Before and After.

Edited February 29, 2008 by FALaholic

[Bonesaw 1]

Tromix says to just not use the "El Cheapo" Walmart shells, S-12's do not like them at all.

 

What is this port opening thing? How do I check if I need it. I have a new S-12 as well.

[oldandslow 3]

Why did you add another gas port?

I assume you had the problem you described in your post and went with adding another gas port in response.

 

If I remember correctly, Tromix posted his gas port dimensions as .076, and he liked 4 ports with the holes angled toward the bolt.

 

I assume you already removed all of the bolt "restrictions". With the recoil spring out, can you move the operating rod freely without it rubbing on anything other than the hammer (if not sure remove the hammer). I took my Tapco hammer out and replaced it with the Saiga hammer.

 

This isn't magic. I particularly liked: "is the gas piston loose?". Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the gas piston driven by the gas "puck", whether the "piston" is loose or not is irrelevant.

 

Have you seen the 1911 recoil spring recommendation?

 

From the looks of your work and your ability to remove and replace the gas block, you'll figure it out.

 

Another "by the way", I use Walmart Remington 7 1/2 "el cheapo" (not so cheap any more at $21 a hundred). They work better for me than AA Light Target and Heavy Target. (As in, they never fail).

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

As far as that cast iron bitch goes, you should be able to remove the dust cover with it installed. It's not as easy as without it but it should come off. Mine did. My only bitch about the Halo was that it was heavy as cast iron and had to be modified to even work with my S-12.

 

Reliability service....yeah right...

 

Polishing all the contact surfaces is a good idea.

Replacing the hammer with the original would also be good at least temporarily to help diagnose the problem.

 

Loose piston...Saigas don't have loose "pistons" like AKs do. Most normal AKs have some slop in the piston on purpose. It's supposed to be that way. On the all Saigas I've seen however, they are very tight. Now the real gas piston, or "puck"...that's another story. It should be loose.

 

Port size...bigger is better and angled to the rear. Too big of course, and you will get more carbon and crap in the manifold. Again though, if nothing else works, it's a lot easier the second time around. Also be damn sure your gas block opening is not off center and covering one or more ports.

 

good luck, maybe it just needs to be fed a strict magnum diet for awhlie to loosen up...

[aresv 49]

As far as that cast iron bitch goes, you should be able to remove the dust cover with it installed. It's not as easy as without it but it should come off. Mine did.

 

Mine too. The front of the dust cover fits underneath with room to spare.

[Azrial 1,091]

I must be missing something here! Why would an 18" barreled gun need that much extra gas port to work correctly?

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I must be missing something here! Why would an 18" barreled gun need that much extra gas port to work correctly?

They just do. Most 18" guns you come across used to be 22" 0r 24".

[FALaholic 0]

You were right Cobra. I went back and finessed it a little and held my mouth just right and was abloe to get the dust cover back on with the HALO in place. My S12 did start life as a 22" with 3 holes, and I added a 4th angled hole. Some fellow members have PMd me with help, so I will try to follow up....Thanks guys! Good group of members we have on this forum.

[Reverendfranz 160]

Tromix says to just not use the "El Cheapo" Walmart shells, S-12's do not like them at all.

 

I donno, mine seems to love it. Alot. Not that ill buy anymore, but thats an unrelated beef with Wal-Mart in general, not against Winchester or Federal generic.

 

The ammo you have is always better than ammo you cant afford.

[FALaholic 0]

Well I kinda figured that the cheap Winchester 100 pk stuff would not cycle based on others experience here, but just wanted to try....I had them on hand. No way was going out and buying them. The cheap Federal 100 pk from Wal-Mart runs fine, but its 3 Dram and est. 1200+ FPS if IRC. Still bummed about the Fiocchi LE Reduced Recoil Buck.

 

But therein lies the problem Im sure. Just not enough gas to cycle the weapon, or too much friction as others have suggested. I have some Wolf Buck, as well as some Sellier & Bellot on the way. I dont anticipate any issues with either of these buckshot loads but they're not RR. Still havent had time to operate on the S12 much less get to the range. Ill update when I do since this seems to be a common problem with our shotguns.

[aresv 49]

The cheap stuff worked fine in my 19". Ran through a whole case of Estate 2 3/4", 1 1/8 oz birdshot without any problems. Gas port on #2, of course.

 

Just avoid the low recoil stuff and you'll be fine.

[Jonathan 0]

Anybody tried Nobel 00buck?Nobel 00 buck

[Pointer 21]

Anybody tried Nobel 00buck?Nobel 00 buck

 

Yep,i never had any trouble with it..its almost identical to Wolf.

[Jonathan 0]

Awsome, i guess Ill get some then.